Just where is the Hill Cumorah?

[Palerider]

1. 
   Not to me. By the time Joseph Smith wrote the epistle canonized at D&C 128, the Saints had taken to calling the New York Hill Cumorah. So he could be using his own own designation, rather than Moroni's. And whatever Joseph Smith called the New York Hill, Moroni had been at the battle at the Book of Mormon Cumorah, and therefore, in coming to visit Joseph Smith, brought glad tidings from, among other places he had been, Cumorah. As always, the tricky bit is in making the eye-witness details in the Book of Mormon fit the New York hill. Hence, the arguments for a New York location tend to avoid them.
   Rob says:
   For me the significance of Larry Poulson's identification of the Grijalva as the only river in the Western Hemisphere that matches the description conveyed in thirty + mentions in the Book of Mormon is that it provides a known starting place. And then we have Brant Gardner's observation that only Teotuhuican fits the description of the cement dwellers described in the Book of Mormon. Another unique fit. And between them, other convergences multiply.
   Kevin Christensen
   Pittsburgh, PA
   

David Whitmer Interviews, edited by Lyndon W. Cook, Grandin Book, 1991, pp. 19, 27

The New York location of the land and hill Cumorah is consistent with Book of Mormon witness David Whitmer

[Palerider]

I find your lack of faith disturbing...

The only thing worse than a little skeptcism is an abundance of gullibility.........

[Pahoran]

I agree. That's why I think the entire "Hill Cumorah", BofM story is without foundation.

He said, smugly.

The problem with your non sequitur, Palerider, is that it's just so obviously contrived. The Book of Mormon talks about a hill that is clearly distinct from the New York drumlin, both geologically and geographically; someone (not Joseph) applies the name to the New York drumlin after the Book of Mormon is published; and that's sufficient for you to leap to the conclusion that "the entire 'Hill Cumorah', BofM story is without foundation," is it?

Obviously Joseph wanted the early saints to buy into it,

Is it? How?

Palerider, if you want to discredit someone who demonstrated his sincerity by dying for his beliefs, you really ought to have some hard evidence to back it up. Absent such, we are entitled to view your evidence-free assumptions as conveying information only about you.

but as most stories of artifice break down on close examination, so does this one.

Either the cave did exist as Brigham Young said it did........or he is prevaricating as indicated by "BookofMormonluvr".

That is a classic example of the fallacy of the false dilemma. There are, of course, more alternatives than just these two.

As I rather suspect you realised even before you wrote it.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Pahoran]

The only thing worse than a little skeptcism is an abundance of gullibility.........

While a surfeit of malicious cynicism is worse than both.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Anijen]

Holy bat cheese! That was long winded. For starters I believe hardly any of the evidences that are dated have any real reliability. There are just loads of problems with carbon dating things. The dates scientists have given to American cultures are so extremely out of the date of range that is required from an LDS perspective we must throw most to all of it out. I have a book on American Indian history and they give dates as far back as 20,000 years ago! That is way older than LDS beliefs on the origins of mankind (6-7 thousand years old).

The evidence I supplied with the book merely shows that there is credible evidence that shows the area of western New York to have once been the area of an ancient defense and ancient warfare. I stated these facts because many say there is no evidence in the area of there being battles, places of defense, etc. I showed otherwise.

I do not discount that events were happening in meso-america with the nephites and Lamanites, I am just stating that the lands of western NY were probably the same place that the Jaredites and Nephites were destroyed.

One of the problems with establishing BoM geography is that we have no real place of known starting place. We cannot be sure exactly where the land of Zarahemla was or the land of Bountiful. We are not sure how the Nephite and Lamanite nations were fixed. We do not know their boundaries or even the places of their main cities of influence. All we have to this point is conjecture.

My opinion is that the hill Cumorah in New York is the same hill Cumorah that the BoM peoples fought their last battles. There is evidences that the area of western New York was set up as a last defense for a race of peoples now long gone. It is my opinion that this race was exterminated and they were the Nephites.

I only replied in such length because it seemed you were answering my post with yours (post 11). I am still adamant about the CFRs please comply or retract. Even this last post of yours you say you don't believe in the dated evidence but in another sentence you say "that there is evidence that the area of western New York was set up as a last defense for a race of peoples now long gone." Is it that you don't believe in the evidence when it does not support a NY hill but believe in evidence when it does support a NY hill?

It is simple when one says there is evidence (even massive evidence) I would like to know what that evidence is.

[Palerider]

1. 
   He said, smugly.
   The problem with your non sequitur, Palerider, is that it's just so obviously contrived. The Book of Mormon talks about a hill that is clearly distinct from the New York drumlin, both geologically and geographically; someone (not Joseph) applies the name to the New York drumlin after the Book of Mormon is published; and that's sufficient for you to leap to the conclusion that "the entire 'Hill Cumorah', BofM story is without foundation," is it?
   

   In 1953, Mark E. Petersen of the Quorum of the Twelve stated:

[Pahoran]

In 1953, Mark E. Petersen of the Quorum of the Twelve stated:

1.

[ELF1024]

The only thing worse than a little skeptcism is an abundance of gullibility.........

Or perhaps a lack of a sense of humor...

[Rob Osborn]

I only replied in such length because it seemed you were answering my post with yours (post 11). I am still adamant about the CFRs please comply or retract. Even this last post of yours you say you don't believe in the dated evidence but in another sentence you say "that there is evidence that the area of western New York was set up as a last defense for a race of peoples now long gone." Is it that you don't believe in the evidence when it does not support a NY hill but believe in evidence when it does support a NY hill?

It is simple when one says there is evidence (even massive evidence) I would like to know what that evidence is.

The book I linked to is the evidence I provided. No one disputes the evidence given in the book, at least not to my knowledge.

The reason I disagree with carbon dating is that it dates go back before my belief system. Personally i do not believe that men were running around the Americas 20,000 years ago. So, when anything is carbon dated I am hesitant to believe it. As a matter of fact, I have never stood by any carbon dated object as evidence even when it fits with what I want.

What more CFR's do you want? I only offered up evidence that was in "my opinion" evidence to prove my point. I made that point, gave a reliable reference. So what more is it you want?

[Palerider]

Or perhaps a lack of a sense of humor...

Sorry I missed that as an attempt at humor, I apologize .

[Palerider]

Ah yes, that standard polemical chestnut: the fallacy of argument from authority, coupled with an attempt to sow discord among brethren.

Elder Petersen did claim either personal inspiration or prior revelatory authority for his throwaway remark. He showed himself willing to revise his views in the light of better information on other subjects; no doubt he would be prepared to do so on this one as well.

Your attempt to sow discord failed. Feel free to move on.

Alternatively, feel free to cite either the Book of Mormon text itself, or any actual authoritative statement to the effect that the New York drumlin is the one and only Cumorah mentioned in the Book of Mormon.

Note that the repudiated Watson letter, so beloved of your fellow anti-Mormons, does not pass muster.

Ah yes, that standard polemical chestnut; you really are full of them today.

The fact is, of course, that Joseph didn't actually kill anyone, as every informed person knows.

But if he had done, his action would have been entirely blameless, and would have raised no questions at all about his religious claims. As every honest critic, if such there be, would admit.

Yes, an excellent example: an unarmed man, seized by a mob in the act of preaching the gospel, provides an infallible rule of conduct to be rigidly adhered to by every Christian thereafter, however much forewarning they may have.

Or perhaps not.

If that was intended to be witty, I'm afraid it was only 50% successful.

The fact is that Brigham was relating a second-hand account. There is, accordingly, a large range of options regarding the accuracy of his recounting. The fact that you have intentionally chosen the two polar extremes on the continuum, and tried to pretend that they exhaust the possibilities, shows that you have no ethical objection to using standard anti-Mormon ploys.

Regards,

Pahoran

If only your grand study of logic hadn't replaced your common sense........

And I would like you to reference the "fact" that Joseph did not kill two of his attackers at Carthage........please?

[Anijen]

@Rob okay I'll let you off the hook on the CFRs I already know the answer anyway; there are no mass skeletal graves anywhere in NY (my definition of mass is more than 100 people) from mass warfare. Let me clarify there are none that date to BofM times, the arrow heads and spear heads date back well before the BofM during and after and they are not countless, the fortifications are also post BofM. All the skeletal remains I have researched are usually the ones found in the mounds themselves and some have different burial dates but in the same mound but none were considered mass graves, unless you count ten as mass... Most mounds are west of Cumorah anyway and no where on the hill or around Cumorah has there been any discovery of a battle let alone a large one.

I firmly believe that there were people here in the Americas long before the Jaredites if you believe they were in New York there is evidence for people in both continents before the Jaradite arrival. Check out the Laetoli footprints they are not carbon dated, carbon dating can only date back roughly 60K years ago (these used a potassium/argon dating method but I digress they are not from this hemisphere). So I will give a source for America "humans are known to have been in the Americas for at least sixteen thousand years and perhaps, twice that long."from ~Indian Mounds of Middle Ohio Valley by Susan L. Woodward and Jerry N. McDonald pg.ix of the preface. See also Meadowcroft Rockshelter but that was radio carbon dated. I will post more on this later.

[Anijen]

Okay here is a little of what I have been studying lately I have since visited 4 colleges/universities and spoke with many other professors by email. I have visited 14 mounds in the last 2 years, I travel to Illinois and Ohio every year for the Nauvoo pageant and business conventions and it allows me to do some research.

The population of the Adena, Hopewell and Mississippian traditions have been estimated not just by the ability to produce or forage food but also estimates are based on large areas of sites that were excavated in the past that show how many houses there were per acre for each time sub-phase. For example at Cahokia looking at where artifacts were found on that site that are typical of those subphases, we can then estimate how much of the site was occupied during each phase and estimating about 4-5 people per house, we can derive a population estimate. However, there are many variables: not all of the site was occupied at equal density; some houses may not have been dwellings but used for storage or other activities; family size may have fluctuated; several houses may have belonged to the same family and were rebuilt or replaced several times, etc.

There was not one group of people who were THE Mound Builders (eliminates both Jaredites and Nephites, sorry), but mound building was an action performed by many different cultures over many thousands of years in many different forms for many different purposes, so the term "Mound Builders" can be misleading. some of the earliest mounds have been found in northern Louisiana dating to Middle Archaic times around 3500 BC. This is earlier than the mounds and pyramids in Mesoamerica. And not all mounds were burial mounds, especially during Mississippian times when they were rectangular and flat-topped and had important and religious buildings on top (thus often called "temple mounds.") Some of the Middle Woodland/Hopewell mounds were in geometric forms such as circles, squares, octagons, that created sacred enclosures and causeways

There seems to be less wafare and conflict during the Woodland period (this also eliminates many of the heart-landers theories about a NY setting) when compared to the Mississippian. With the larger populations and communities, there was more competition for the available resources (game, wood, etc) and we see sites now being fortified with defensive log walls called Stockades or Palisades. Burials show more warfare related injuries. Also, new evidence suggests there were some major extended droughts in the late 1100s and middle 1200s that would have affected their crops as well as the natural flora and fauna needed to support large populations, so people were fighting more for what was available or to take away what others had. As shortages in resources continued, there would be political complications as well, perhaps as people lost faith in their leaders. There would have been times of peace and alliances punctuated with times of war and conflict. As I have mentioned in other posts as well as this thread the population and warfare was not very impressive during the BofM time but they did build up and peak around 1050 AD (with up to 10K or 20K max).

The Hopewell and Adena tradition were also very skilled flintknappers and stone workers, had artistic specialists and artisans who produced superb figurines, pipes, pottery, shell and bone and copper tools and ornaments. They engaged in extensive trade networks to obtain exotic materials (marine shell, copper, mica, galena) from distant areas, using the extensive river systems and overland trails however trading of ore all the way to Central America I have not seen evidence for this as yet.

If you would like more information just send me a message I have email addresses from many experts from the Ohio State Historical Society, Northwestern University, Wright State Univ, Wayne State College and the University of South Dakota as well as Cahokia.

[Jon63]

Can anyone show me where Church leaders have publically rejected the position that the Hill Cumorah in New York is the one in the Book of Mormon?

We have seen examples of where they have positively stated this and the current official Church website also states this.

So, unless and until they reject this position or researchers find a Hill where there are the remains of a vast number of battles and blood shed costing thousands and thousands of lives over a period of a thousand years, ending less than two thousand years ago then the Hill Cumorah is in New York - let's get the shovels and start digging...

[ELF1024]

Sorry I missed that as an attempt at humor, I apologize .

It's all good, sarcasm is hard to read...

[ELF1024]

Can anyone show me where Church leaders have publically rejected the position that the Hill Cumorah in New York is the one in the Book of Mormon?

Why do they need to reject it? That hill is the place where Joseph recieved the plates. It is known as the Hill Cumorah. There is quite likely another Hill Cumorah in Mezo-America, but that doesn't mean that the hill in NY is any less where Joseph recieved the plates from, or is in any way less deserving of the name "Cumorah" than any other hill.

We have seen examples of where they have positively stated this and the current official Church website also states this.

So, unless and until they reject this position or researchers find a Hill where there are the remains of a vast number of battles and blood shed costing thousands and thousands of lives over a period of a thousand years, ending less than two thousand years ago then the Hill Cumorah is in New York - let's get the shovels and start digging...

The digging has already been done. Not exactly an original idea... You really think that once the rumor of the "Golden Bible" got out, that treasure hunters from all over NY haven't comepletely turned over the top six feet of dirt on that hill? You don't think that every inch of that hill hasn't been metal detected?

[Jon63]

The digging has already been done. Not exactly an original idea...

I must have missed the newspaper articles where they paraded all the amazing 'finds' from that digging. Please can you post the link...

On its official website the Church still fails to make the distinction that they are talking about two seperate Hills...

Cumorah, Hill

See also Book of Mormon; Moroni, Son of Mormon; Smith, Joseph, Jr..A small hill located in western New York, United States of America. Here an ancient prophet named Moroni hid the gold plates containing some of the records of the Nephite and Jaredite nations. Joseph Smith was directed to this hill in 1827 by the resurrected Moroni to get these plates and translate a portion of them. This translation is the Book of Mormon.

• [*]Nephites gathered at Cumorah, Morm. 6:2

[ELF1024]

I must have missed the newspaper articles where they paraded all the amazing 'finds' from that digging. Please can you post the link...

On its official website the Church still fails to make the distinction that they are talking about two seperate Hills...

Cumorah, Hill

See also Book of Mormon; Moroni, Son of Mormon; Smith, Joseph, Jr..A small hill located in western New York, United States of America. Here an ancient prophet named Moroni hid the gold plates containing some of the records of the Nephite and Jaredite nations. Joseph Smith was directed to this hill in 1827 by the resurrected Moroni to get these plates and translate a portion of them. This translation is the Book of Mormon.

• [*]Nephites gathered at Cumorah, Morm. 6:2

[Jon63]

If there is a point here, I'm missing it.

Why aren't you following the Church's official line on this?

The Hill Cumorah is in New York.

[Rob Osborn]

@Rob okay I'll let you off the hook on the CFRs I already know the answer anyway; there are no mass skeletal graves anywhere in NY (my definition of mass is more than 100 people) from mass warfare. Let me clarify there are none that date to BofM times, the arrow heads and spear heads date back well before the BofM during and after and they are not countless, the fortifications are also post BofM. All the skeletal remains I have researched are usually the ones found in the mounds themselves and some have different burial dates but in the same mound but none were considered mass graves, unless you count ten as mass... Most mounds are west of Cumorah anyway and no where on the hill or around Cumorah has there been any discovery of a battle let alone a large one.

I firmly believe that there were people here in the Americas long before the Jaredites if you believe they were in New York there is evidence for people in both continents before the Jaradite arrival. Check out the Laetoli footprints they are not carbon dated, carbon dating can only date back roughly 60K years ago (these used a potassium/argon dating method but I digress they are not from this hemisphere). So I will give a source for America "humans are known to have been in the Americas for at least sixteen thousand years and perhaps, twice that long."from ~Indian Mounds of Middle Ohio Valley by Susan L. Woodward and Jerry N. McDonald pg.ix of the preface. See also Meadowcroft Rockshelter but that was radio carbon dated. I will post more on this later.

You see, don't you feel better now? The way I see it, it was good that you came forth with your opinions and beliefs on this matter, otherwise we would have endlessly debated back and forth the credibility of each others evidence. You believe your evidence, and I believe mine. I am perfectly happy knowing that the evidence I have found supports my ideas and opinions. For me it is the truth and I am happy knowing that truth. I do not really need to recieve more of a witness on the matter. It is sad however that others can' see it. Oh well, too bad for them.

[ELF1024]

Why aren't you following the Church's official line on this?

The Hill Cumorah is in New York.

Now you are insisting that we follow the Church's official line... really? You are a comical little fellow.

[Rob Osborn]

Okay here is a little of what I have been studying lately I have since visited 4 colleges/universities and spoke with many other professors by email. I have visited 14 mounds in the last 2 years, I travel to Illinois and Ohio every year for the Nauvoo pageant and business conventions and it allows me to do some research.

The population of the Adena, Hopewell and Mississippian traditions have been estimated not just by the ability to produce or forage food but also estimates are based on large areas of sites that were excavated in the past that show how many houses there were per acre for each time sub-phase. For example at Cahokia looking at where artifacts were found on that site that are typical of those subphases, we can then estimate how much of the site was occupied during each phase and estimating about 4-5 people per house, we can derive a population estimate. However, there are many variables: not all of the site was occupied at equal density; some houses may not have been dwellings but used for storage or other activities; family size may have fluctuated; several houses may have belonged to the same family and were rebuilt or replaced several times, etc.

There was not one group of people who were THE Mound Builders (eliminates both Jaredites and Nephites, sorry), but mound building was an action performed by many different cultures over many thousands of years in many different forms for many different purposes, so the term "Mound Builders" can be misleading. some of the earliest mounds have been found in northern Louisiana dating to Middle Archaic times around 3500 BC. This is earlier than the mounds and pyramids in Mesoamerica. And not all mounds were burial mounds, especially during Mississippian times when they were rectangular and flat-topped and had important and religious buildings on top (thus often called "temple mounds.") Some of the Middle Woodland/Hopewell mounds were in geometric forms such as circles, squares, octagons, that created sacred enclosures and causeways

There seems to be less wafare and conflict during the Woodland period (this also eliminates many of the heart-landers theories about a NY setting) when compared to the Mississippian. With the larger populations and communities, there was more competition for the available resources (game, wood, etc) and we see sites now being fortified with defensive log walls called Stockades or Palisades. Burials show more warfare related injuries. Also, new evidence suggests there were some major extended droughts in the late 1100s and middle 1200s that would have affected their crops as well as the natural flora and fauna needed to support large populations, so people were fighting more for what was available or to take away what others had. As shortages in resources continued, there would be political complications as well, perhaps as people lost faith in their leaders. There would have been times of peace and alliances punctuated with times of war and conflict. As I have mentioned in other posts as well as this thread the population and warfare was not very impressive during the BofM time but they did build up and peak around 1050 AD (with up to 10K or 20K max).

The Hopewell and Adena tradition were also very skilled flintknappers and stone workers, had artistic specialists and artisans who produced superb figurines, pipes, pottery, shell and bone and copper tools and ornaments. They engaged in extensive trade networks to obtain exotic materials (marine shell, copper, mica, galena) from distant areas, using the extensive river systems and overland trails however trading of ore all the way to Central America I have not seen evidence for this as yet.

If you would like more information just send me a message I have email addresses from many experts from the Ohio State Historical Society, Northwestern University, Wright State Univ, Wayne State College and the University of South Dakota as well as Cahokia.

I wonder what all these "experts" have to say about the Book of Mormon and it's peoples? If the BoM is true, it would seem logical that the BoM would be an extremely valuable resource.

As far as I know, no experts I have run accross treat the BoM as a historical account.

Does this say something about the actual credibility of "experts"? Just wondering.

[Kevin Christensen]

I wonder what all these "experts" have to say about the Book of Mormon and it's peoples? If the BoM is true, it would seem logical that the BoM would be an extremely valuable resource.

As far as I know, no experts I have run accross treat the BoM as a historical account.

Does this say something about the actual credibility of "experts"? Just wondering.

It may say something about your knowledge of the experts. Mark Wright, who occasionally posts here as Hashbaz is a doctoral candidate in Mesoamerican studies. He has mentioned that the husband and wife archeologists in charge of the site of Teotihuican converted to Mormonism. He even offers to introduce them to visitors. Though of course, in these matters, no matter how expert, the LDS don't count, do they?

And there is Margaret Barker, who famously spoke on the Book of Mormon at the Joseph Smith Conference at the Library of Congress in 2005. Her talk has been published in the BYU Studies volume.

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Why aren't you following the Church's official line on this?

The Hill Cumorah is in New York.

The LDS Church has no official stance on Book of Mormon archaeology.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Why aren't you following the Church's official line on this?

The Hill Cumorah is in New York.

You have a nasty habbit of stating things that simply are not true.

THere is no offical line that the hill in NY is the same hill Cumorah spoken of in the BoM.