Top Ten Anti-Mormon Arguments

[Ahab]

Hmmm your opinion. God reveals himself to me, speaks to me and I know I am his.

Heartleap...

Do you realize it's possible to be "his"... or a true disciple of Jesus Christ... and still not be a member of His one true Church?

Anyone can follow him, either to some limited extent or all the way into His Church, and to become a member of His Church there are certain things you need to do to become a member of it.

Do you realize that?

Jesus has said The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the name that his one true Church now goes by on this Earth, at this time, and that although many people are following him, to some extent, not everyone who follows him has become a member of the Church that is His Church... which is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Tell me, Heartleap: Are you a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? If you're not, then you're not a member of His Church, even though you may be one of his true disciples.

[Jeanne]

:mega_shok:People, these young men will be giving two years of their life to serve the church as missionaries. They have a right to know the truth..not just alittle

bit of meat! All the issues brought up on this thread as to the "anti" or those who have questions have answers..do you not think that sixteen year olds

will find the internet anyway??? Why coat the doctrine and/or avoid truthful answers for conversions. To me, this is another "lying for the Lord" thing.

If you are paying dollars to a church..you should KNOW the questions and the answers.

This reminds me of my cousin who served a mission in California. They were asked to attend classes given by vacuum cleaners salesmen in how to

sell the church.

This makes me ill..and lose respect for those who perpetuate the whitecoating that goes on with conversions..and not only that..the members themselves

are not aware of all these things. Why lie anymore?? You only damage the church and its image.

I am ranting I know, but your tithing members and those who sustain their leaders and the doctrine of the church..deserve better. Please do not treat

these young people as ignorant, mindless sheep!

Jeanne

[thesometimesaint]

LDS Truthseeker:

You are always welcome here in my book.

I don't believe it would be for the Missionaries to be governed by the same rules as we are here in the Apologetics end of the stream. Arguments for or against a certain belief are rarely, if ever, resolved by appeals to apologetics. So to me it would be just a waste of the Missionaries time.

[Avatar4321]

I was unaware that there were good arguments let alone best ones.

[Bsix]

It [the Apostacy] is certainly implicitly taught. Especially, when you include the recommended verse from JSH:

19I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all awrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those bprofessors were all ccorrupt; that:

[Lightbearer]

I believe the Church gave up on the debate format of Missionary work about 100 years ago. That is really all this is advocating, Anti- and Pro- "arguments." The Lord has already told the Church:

(D&C 19:31) "And of tenets thou shalt not talk, but thou shalt declare repentance and faith on the Savior, and remission of sins by baptism, and by fire, yea, even the Holy Ghost."

Also the following:

(D&C 50:17-23) "Verily I say unto you, he that is ordained of me and sent forth to preach the word of truth by the Comforter, in the Spirit of truth, doth he preach it by the Spirit of truth or some other way? And if it be by some other way it is not of God. And again, he that receiveth the word of truth, doth he receive it by the Spirit of truth or some other way? If it be some other way it is not of God. Therefore, why is it that ye cannot understand and know, that he that receiveth the word by the Spirit of truth receiveth it as it is preached by the Spirit of truth? Wherefore, he that preacheth and he that receiveth, understand one another, and both are edified and rejoice together. And that which doth not edify is not of God, and is darkness."

This is why the Lord does not establish apologetic classes at the MTC. Why waste their time on darkness and that which does not edify? I learned this lesson early in my Mission, I desired to be alble to "prove" to the world that Mormonism was true! I could not do it, because God did not want me to "prove it" to them against their will. The spirit was the converting power, we were mere instruments in His hands and the conversion process is in His control not ours, not scholars, not even prophets and apostles... He is the one who brings it about. It is true we are His messengers, but if we do it not by the spirit we cannot do it! Notice this admonition:

(D&C 63:57-58) "And again, verily I say unto you, those who desire in their hearts, in meekness, to warn sinners to repentance, let them be ordained unto this power. For this is a day of warning, and not a day of many words. For I, the Lord, am not to be mocked in the last days."

[Lightbearer]

:mega_shok:People, these young men will be giving two years of their life to serve the church as missionaries. They have a right to know the truth..not just alittle

bit of meat! All the issues brought up on this thread as to the "anti" or those who have questions have answers..do you not think that sixteen year olds

will find the internet anyway??? Why coat the doctrine and/or avoid truthful answers for conversions. To me, this is another "lying for the Lord" thing.

If you are paying dollars to a church..you should KNOW the questions and the answers.

This reminds me of my cousin who served a mission in California. They were asked to attend classes given by vacuum cleaners salesmen in how to

sell the church.

This makes me ill..and lose respect for those who perpetuate the whitecoating that goes on with conversions..and not only that..the members themselves

are not aware of all these things. Why lie anymore?? You only damage the church and its image.

I am ranting I know, but your tithing members and those who sustain their leaders and the doctrine of the church..deserve better. Please do not treat

these young people as ignorant, mindless sheep!

Jeanne

The only lying is being done by the Anti-Mormon apostates, not the Church.

[Jeanne]

The only lying is being done by the Anti-Mormon apostates, not the Church.

So..all the stuff about Joseph and polygamy..evidence of Book of Mormon..all the issues are correct and factual??

Believe it or not, anti's can read and actually think without any help. So many of the people I have met that left

the church..found out the worse about the church while on their missions. Why don't you admit that their are

some very REAL historical problems here??

[sjdawg]

If I was an investigator I would much rather here these things up front, instead of after I was baptized.

Not talking about them makes the arguments much more effective than discussing them. I know that, for myself, I felt as though the Church deceived me by only presenting their sanitized version of events in front of me.

[ELF1024]

So..all the stuff about Joseph and polygamy..evidence of Book of Mormon..all the issues are correct and factual?? Believe it or not, anti's can read and actually think without any help.

I've found very little evidence of that in my experience.

So many of the people I have met that left the church... found out the worse about the church while on their missions. Why don't you admit that their are some very REAL historical problems here??

The truth about polygamy in particular has been greatly exaggerated and/or greatly downplayed by both sides. The Anti's have been beating that dead horse for over a century. At this point, the whole truth may never be known. The only issue of importance to me, is that the practice has been abolished; which is has.

Beyond that it becomes a complete historical catfight about who said what, and who did who, and how and when and it's all just made of gossip, hersay and garbage that is even beneath the tabloids to publish.

People do have their testimonies challenged on their missions. It's not all unicorns and rainbows. Many of us have had the same challenges handed to us by friends or co-workers because we don't live in Utah. If you lose your testimony while on your mission, I would hazard to guess that you didn't have much of one to start with, or you were on the mission in the first place to make "mommy and daddy" happy.

A mission, and the mission field are not for the weak of heart.

[Rob Bowman]

Lightbearer,

You wrote:

The only lying is being done by the Anti-Mormon apostates, not the Church.

Just keep telling yourself that....

[Rob Bowman]

Elf,

You wrote:

The truth about polygamy in particular has been greatly exaggerated and/or greatly downplayed by both sides. The Anti's have been beating that dead horse for over a century. At this point, the whole truth may never be known.

If the whole truth about polygamy may never be known, how do you know the truth about polygamy has been either greatly exaggerated or greatly downplayed?

You wrote:

The only issue of importance to me, is that the practice has been abolished; which is has.

No. It has been suspended, not abolished. The LDS Church could bring it back at any time. The LDS Church has never stated that polygamy was or is wrong -- only that it no longer sanctions the practice.

For a brief explanation of why the subject is not a "dead horse," please see my blog article, "Why Are We Still Talking about Polygamy?"

[Ahab]

Lightbearer,

You wrote:

Just keep telling yourself that....

It might help if you understood the fact that the "Church" is the collective group, rather than only one or some individuals who are members of the group.

[Mortal Man]

People do have their testimonies challenged on their missions. It's not all unicorns and rainbows. Many of us have had the same challenges handed to us by friends or co-workers because we don't live in Utah. If you lose your testimony while on your mission, I would hazard to guess that you didn't have much of one to start with, or you were on the mission in the first place to make "mommy and daddy" happy.

A mission, and the mission field are not for the weak of heart.

My cousin (same age as me and whom I was very close to growing up) lost his testimony on his mission. His testimony "in the first place" was rock solid. He served out of a sense of duty and honor and because he firmly believed the church to be true. On his mission he became aware of certain facts which he'd never heard of before. One of these facts was that the Joseph Smith Papyri had been recovered by the church and the translation didn't match the Book of Abraham. He told me this several years after he'd returned from his mission and left the church. My reaction was, "So what? How do you know it's not on the missing papyri?" Though I never condemned him openly, I'm ashamed to say that, in my mind, I looked down on him for losing his faith. In a thousand indistinct ways, I along with everyone else in his extended family, registered our disapproval of him. It's been almost two decades since I've seen him. Life has an ironic way of bringing lessons home to bear.

[Ceeboo]

If you lose your testimony while on your mission, I would hazard to guess that you didn't have much of one to start with

Hey Elf,

Please forgive my Never-Mo "defense" of these very young and unseasoned men and women who go on missions.

It is my opinion (partly from personal experience with 3 different LDS missionaries in my home for a total of approx 5 hours) that you could not possibly be more wrong.

The reality is that these fine young folks do not have a clue about anything being discussed as "anti-mormon" in this thread.

To suggest they "didn't have much of a testimony to begin with" is clearly, IMHO, placing the blame upon them when it should indeed be placed elswhere.

Perhaps this seems strange (coming from me) to defend the LDS missionaries but under no circumstance should it be them who are thrown under the bus.

Peace,

Ceeboo

[Lightbearer]

So..all the stuff about Joseph and polygamy..evidence of Book of Mormon..all the issues are correct and factual??

Believe it or not, anti's can read and actually think without any help. So many of the people I have met that left

the church..found out the worse about the church while on their missions. Why don't you admit that their are

some very REAL historical problems here??

Joseph Smith and polygamy? That is ancient history, I don't need the lectures of apostates and professional Anti-Mormons to tell me the "real truth" as if the Church is lying or deceitful about anything. The only liars are the damned apostates that rehash the Anti-Mormon stories started by Bennett, Brodie, and others who had an axe to grind against the Church, who seek to shed innocent blood. It is amazing that there are still those who thirst for the blood of Joseph Smith and try to defame him just as the apostates who killed him did. No there are no real historical problems except with those who believe the gossip and mud slinging inventions of so-called historians that try to bring the prophets down a notch and seek to confound the faith of those who may be struggling to gain a testimony. Well I have passed over that bridge years ago, your pathetic accusations or the ramblings of professional Anti-Mormon hacks are not going to bother me a bit. For your information I was not born yesterday, and I am not a novice to the LDS Church, I know all the damnable slander and lies thrown against it since it's founding and they will not prosper anymore now in the "internet" age (I like to refer to it as the "dis-information age") where any cretien with a web page can start their own blog and write whatever they want against the truth, any more than they did then, the faithful will not be turned against the Church by the testimonies of traitors. But it will stand, the heathen may rage, and the sinners may rail and mock but they will not stand because the spirit of the Lord is more powerful than all the lies and frauds invented by the wicked one.

And as for those valiant young men and women sent out to thrash the nations (of which I am honored to say I was one) they are not the scholars or the learned of the world that are called forth to preach:

(1 Corinthians 1:25-29) "Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence."

God does not want his servants polluted with philosophies of men, or "foolish or doubting questions" but He wants them to teach Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Missionaries are not sent out to argue with men or women or corrupt minds who do not desire to know the truth, but to declare the truth in meekness and faithfulness, not with a doubting mind, but with the sheild of faith.

[Kevin Christensen]

Hi Consiglieri,

I'm glad you've been given this opportunity. I remember early on in my mission in England 1973 hearing a talk by a general authority who talked about changes in the Book of Mormon, their relative insignificance, and why they were not often discussed. That was the first I'd heard of the changes. It wasn't much, but it was something. A few months later, we were invited to show a film called Meet the Mormons at a middle school in Colne, Lancaster. As the student's filed in, we could see them handing around pamphlets. Apparently, someone decided to innoculate them against us. It was the usual stuff, and included a claim about changes in the Book of Mormon. The GA who had prepped me just a few months earlier was Boyd K. Packer. I appreciated that. On the other hand, I was a bit annoyed that I'd not been prepared against several other questions. Nothing that was a big deal, but I learned there that if I wanted to be prepared, I shouldn't wait to be spoonfed, but that I should by my own efforts, seek in order to find.

Also point out that all perception of anomally grows from expectation. Something seems wrong only because it violates expectations. It helps therefore, to have (1) better information and (2) the ability to re-examine our own assumptions. For all the talk about the easy availability of anti-LDS information on the net, it also helps to point out the marvelous resources that we have now. When I started looking for the good stuff back in 1973, it took a lot more legwork to find a lot less than we have now. FAIR, FARMS, Jeff Lindsay, online. Mike Ash's book on Shaken Faith Syndrome. If they want to be prepared, they should prepare themselves. Not to argue, but to know for themselves.

The usual questions that Missionaries will encounter will be things like.

1. Changes in the Book of Mormon. The assumption is that the Bible is pristine (it isn't) and that any change must be significant. (Most of those in the Book of Mormon are not. Mention the few that are.)

2. The usual charges against Joseph Smith. Money digger, pedophile, etc. FAIR and FARMS are very good on these.

3. No evidence for the Book of Mormon. Of course, there is a lot, from my perspective. I like the Brant Gardner quote I used in FR 16:1, showing how important perspective is.

4. Book of Abraham stuff. There is a large contingent that treats this like a done deal. I disagree. We've got some very cool stuff on our side, some of the best emerging only in the past two or three years.

5. Polygamy. I like what both Richard Bushman and Terryl Givens have said in their recent interviews with Blair for the FAIR Podcasts. We don't understand it. We practiced it for a time. We stopped in stages, starting in 1890, and closing off loopholes. But we've not done it for over 100 years. It is not foundational.

6. Joseph Smith was a false prophet. Point at my FAIR paper.

7. Mormons are not Christians. Who decides?

8. Brigham Young as a boogey man.

9. LDS lie for the Lord. This charge is simple poisoning the well. Point to things like the Joseph Smith Paper's project, the recent Mountain Meadows book.

10. Book of Mormon Anachronisms. It is necessary to demonstrate that one has correctly identified an anachronism, and then to have correctly identified the significance of one. It happens that many claims for anachronism have been premature, in light of subsequent researches, and also, that those making the claims don't think much about what inspired translation means.

I hope your fireside goes well.

Best,

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

[Lightbearer]

Lightbearer,

You wrote:

Just keep telling yourself that....

Thou sayest...

[Chris Smith]

4. Book of Abraham stuff. There is a large contingent that treats this like a done deal. I disagree. We've got some very cool stuff on our side, some of the best emerging only in the past two or three years.

Out of curiosity, what cool stuff are you referring to?

[Ceeboo]

Joseph Smith and polygamy? That is ancient history, I don't need the lectures of apostates and professional Anti-Mormons to tell me the "real truth" as if the Church is lying or deceitful about anything. The only liars are the damned apostates that rehash the Anti-Mormon stories started by Bennett, Brodie, and others who had an axe to grind against the Church, who seek to shed innocent blood. It is amazing that there are still those who thirst for the blood of Joseph Smith and try to defame him just as the apostates who killed him did. No there are no real historical problems except with those who believe the gossip and mud slinging inventions of so-called historians that try to bring the prophets down a notch and seek to confound the faith of those who may be struggling to gain a testimony. Well I have passed over that bridge years ago, your pathetic accusations or the ramblings of professional Anti-Mormon hacks are not going to bother me a bit. For your information I was not born yesterday, and I am not a novice to the LDS Church, I know all the damnable slander and lies thrown against it since it's founding and they will not prosper anymore now in the "internet" age (I like to refer to it as the "dis-information age") where any cretien with a web page can start their own blog and write whatever they want against the truth, any more than they did then, the faithful will not be turned against the Church by the testimonies of traitors. But it will stand, the heathen may rage, and the sinners may rail and mock but they will not stand because the spirit of the Lord is more powerful than all the lies and frauds invented by the wicked one.

And as for those valiant young men and women sent out to thrash the nations (of which I am honored to say I was one) they are not the scholars or the learned of the world that are called forth to preach:God does not want his servants polluted with philosophies of men, or "foolish or doubting questions" but He wants them to teach Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Missionaries are not sent out to argue with men or women or corrupt minds who do not desire to know the truth, but to declare the truth in meekness and faithfulness, not with a doubting mind, but with the sheild of faith.

Me thinks you forgot "poopy head" and "booger nose"

Peace,

'Ceeboo

[mbh26]

Hey Consig, I served in the Philippines where the only "antimormon" claims I encountered was Adam-God theory. But I think this brings up an important point for young LDS, that prophets have been wrong, even when speaking as prophets. I think this could be a very valuable lesson for young LDS, which is not often covered in Sunday school. Best of luck with your presentation.

Not often covered in Sunday School? I think it's been a lot worse than that. It's this very fact that is so verboten in environments like the MTC where absolute obedience regardless of what you think the spirit might have told you is preached. And it's because they want to control the minds of the young people. And it's blatantly obvious. Young people aren't as dumb as they think. This approach didn't do the Church any favors in my view.

[John Larsen]

I think the strongest arguements against Mormonism are also the strongest arguements against God.

If you are religious, there are only two choices... Catholic or LDS. Either the true Church never left, or it's been restored. The Evangelicals have no leg to stand on, as you can't get good fruit from a bad tree.

However, if you discount belief in God... it really doesn't matter.

Which Catholic Church? Roman Catholic? Eastern Orthodox? Which restoration Church? CoC? Utah? FLDS?

And what of the Hindus, why "if you are religious" are they not even an option.

I think you need to rethink your overly simplistic retort.

[mbh26]

In the meantime, a good critic can throw out some zingers which they may not be capable of answering. It's like throwing a lay person into some esoteric point of finance or law, without training.

So admit that you don't know. Then someone should be working to find out.

We've already heard the zingers and many of us are here because of the ones we stumbled over on our own. I still think it would be very interesting to learn from you if you would ever open up and share with us instead of your often curt and dismissive retorts. It'd certainly make for a better Sunday School class than what we're getting right now. I personally feel the spirit stronger as I get closer to solving these problems, not when I ignore them.

[Tango]

I have been asked to do an hour long presentation for prospective missionaries this coming Sunday evening, and have been asked to provide what I consider to be the "top ten" arguments against the Book of Mormon (and probably Mormonism in general) that missionaries are likely to encounter, together with answers for them. (Sorry about the run-on sentence.)

I wanted to ask for your opinions on this subject. Not that you have to give a list of ten, but just what you consider to be the arguments heard most often.

The first one that comes to mind is the argument that no new scripture can be added after the Book of the Revelation.

Any other suggestions?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

The Great? Isaiah Scroll as part of the Dead Sea Scrolls(DSS) really serve as a condemnation of the Book of Mormon as the Isaiah quotes do in general. Not only does the BOM anachronistically quote Second Isaiah(whoops!) it repeats the KJV translation errors and the text almost word for word. KJV Isiah and Joseph's editorialising are the only sources for the BOM Isaiah.

Of the 478 Isaiah verses in the BOM 201 are the exact KJV Isaiah(errors and all) and 207 verses have variants. 40% of the variants are the simple exclusion of italicized words in the KJV. The BOM text shows a editorial decision to exclude the italicized words and is 95%+ dependant on KJV Isaiah.

Good luck with your presentation-

[robby sunshine]

Joseph Smith and polygamy? That is ancient history, I don't need the lectures of apostates and professional Anti-Mormons to tell me the "real truth" as if the Church is lying or deceitful about anything. The only liars are the damned apostates that rehash the Anti-Mormon stories started by Bennett, Brodie, and others who had an axe to grind against the Church, who seek to shed innocent blood. It is amazing that there are still those who thirst for the blood of Joseph Smith and try to defame him just as the apostates who killed him did. No there are no real historical problems except with those who believe the gossip and mud slinging inventions of so-called historians that try to bring the prophets down a notch and seek to confound the faith of those who may be struggling to gain a testimony. Well I have passed over that bridge years ago, your pathetic accusations or the ramblings of professional Anti-Mormon hacks are not going to bother me a bit. For your information I was not born yesterday, and I am not a novice to the LDS Church, I know all the damnable slander and lies thrown against it since it's founding and they will not prosper anymore now in the "internet" age (I like to refer to it as the "dis-information age") where any cretien with a web page can start their own blog and write whatever they want against the truth, any more than they did then, the faithful will not be turned against the Church by the testimonies of traitors. But it will stand, the heathen may rage, and the sinners may rail and mock but they will not stand because the spirit of the Lord is more powerful than all the lies and frauds invented by the wicked one.

And as for those valiant young men and women sent out to thrash the nations (of which I am honored to say I was one) they are not the scholars or the learned of the world that are called forth to preach:God does not want his servants polluted with philosophies of men, or "foolish or doubting questions" but He wants them to teach Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Missionaries are not sent out to argue with men or women or corrupt minds who do not desire to know the truth, but to declare the truth in meekness and faithfulness, not with a doubting mind, but with the sheild of faith.

Lightbearer,

I assume your references about "seeking to shed innocent blood" and "thirst for the blood of Joseph Smith" are in reference to this Joseph Smith quotation in answer to the question "what must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin?":

"When a man begins to be an enemy to this work he hunts me, he seeks to kill me, and never ceases to thirst for my blood. He gets the spirit of the devil - the same spirit that they had who crucified the Lord of Life - the ame sirit that sins against the Holy Ghost. You cannot save such persons; you cannot bring them to repentance; they make open war, like the devil, and awful is the consequence" (Teachings of the Prophet JS, pg 358) "

I see you're not a proponent of "kinder, gentler Mormonism". Perhaps your consistency does you credit. For the record, I don't know that voicing doubts and dissenting versions of the official LDS history ought to qualify one for eternity with Satan and his angels in outer darkness where the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched,