Was Muhammad Inspired of God?

[Ahab]

Saying the religion can't lead you to Christ seems reasonable. Saying that it's outright evil doesn't.

If something doesn't point toward Jesus Christ, then evil is what it is, by default.

Some people seem to think "evil" is something that nobody thinks is good, but in reality it is simply what is not good and a LOT of people like what is evil.

.

[thesometimesaint]

Ahab:

No. The absence of a particular positive, doesn't mandate a particular negative be present.

[USU78]

... and a new app for our Urim and Thummim too, please.

I'd ask for more but I don't want to seem too greedy.

Is it possible for me to order up a new set with Hello Kitty on the frames? My old set went missing. Dang neighbor kids.

[Ahab]

Is it possible for me to order up a new set with Hello Kitty

[Jason]

If something doesn't point toward Jesus Christ, then evil is what it is, by default.

I disagree. I think if something is pointing away from Jesus Christ then yes, it might be described as evil. Not being pointed directly at Him, though, doesn't qualify you as strictly evil in my book.

Some people seem to think "evil" is something that nobody thinks is good, but in reality it is simply what is not good and a LOT of people like what is evil.

Good better best? You seem to be saying that only best is good, and good and better are evil.

[ELF1024]

Good better best? You seem to be saying that only best is good, and good and better are evil.

I know alot of people who fall into this kind of thinking. They are unable to see shades of Gray. I will admit there are many issues which I am black/white on, and refuse to see gray areas on.

Is there Good, Better, Best? Or is there just Good/Evil. Is almost right, right? Or is Almost right, still wrong?

[Hamba Tuhan]

Hamba: As far as conversion and Islam goes, I'm not sure it gets down to just neighborhoods. All throughout Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Libya, Iraq and even communities within the U.S., Canada and the U.K., you can easily end up dead by converting to Christianity. Sometimes you can even get offed by your own family members.

I know that this occurs within pockets of Islam. I'll also assume that this is an official retraction of your earlier, impossible-to-substantiate-because-it's-false claim that this is common behaviour amongst 'regular, everyday Muslims,' occurring at a six-to-one ratio over Muslims who don't kill or threaten converts.

All over the world, Christianity is helping Muslims in disaster and hunger relief, but the reverse doesn't seem to be true.

Er, I'm guessing you don't know who the Church's major partner is in providing 'disaster and hunger relief' in places such as Indonesia, Pakistan, and even overwhelmingly Christian Haiti?

[Hamba Tuhan]

If something doesn't point toward Jesus Christ, then evil is what it is, by default.

I personally know hundreds of Latter-day Saints for whom the first steps toward embracing Christ and His Restored Gospel were found within the framework of Islam.

Muslims already believe:

• that Adam was the first prophet
  
• that the God of the Bible is the true and living God
  
• that God's people have repeatedly apostatised and needed new prophets to restore truth
  
• that men such as Noah and Moses were prophets of God
  
• that there will be a literal physical resurrection
  
• that family relationships continue after death
  
• that Jesus Christ was unique amongst men in that He was in the beginning with God
  
• that Christ will return to the Earth in the Second Coming
  
• that fasting requires the payment of offerings for the relief of the poor
  
• that there is one God as opposed to a pantheon of gods or a bewildering host of ancestral/nature spirits
  
• that the rewards of obedience include both peace in this life and eternal life in the world to come
  
• that heaven is an actual place, not just some vague spiritual state
  
• and so on
  

Compared to so many other religious options, including secular nothingism, this gives us a pretty good shared foundation on which to build. I've seen it.

[Ahab]

I disagree. I think if something is pointing away from Jesus Christ then yes, it might be described as evil. Not being pointed directly at Him, though, doesn't qualify you as strictly evil in my book.

There are only 2 directions to go... toward Jesus, or away from him... and if you're not pointed toward him, then you're pointed the other way.

Good better best? You seem to be saying that only best is good, and good and better are evil.

I think of good, better, and best as different "degrees" of how much someone is pointed toward him, while evil is anywhere along the same line pointed in the other direction.

Even if you're doing your best, if you then turn around, you'll be evil, and you'll make it all of the way to the perfection of evil if you keep going in that direction.

[Ahab]

I personally know hundreds of Latter-day Saints for whom the first steps toward embracing Christ and His Restored Gospel were found within the framework of Islam.

Muslims already believe:

• that Adam was the first prophet
• that the God of the Bible is the true and living God
• that God's people have repeatedly apostatised and needed new prophets to restore truth
• that men such as Noah and Moses were prophets of God
• that there will be a literal physical resurrection
• that family relationships continue after death
• that Jesus Christ was unique amongst men in that He was in the beginning with God
• that Christ will return to the Earth in the Second Coming
• that fasting requires the payment of offerings for the relief of the poor
• that there is one God as opposed to a pantheon of gods or a bewildering host of ancestral/nature spirits
• that the rewards of obedience include both peace in this life and eternal life in the world to come
• that heaven is an actual place, not just some vague spiritual state
• and so on

Compared to so many other religious options, including secular nothingism, this gives us a pretty good shared foundation on which to build. I've seen it.

My point was that there are only 2 directions to go, and I see nothing in what you said which refutes what I said.

[Ahab]

I know alot of people who fall into this kind of thinking. They are unable to see shades of Gray. I will admit there are many issues which I am black/white on, and refuse to see gray areas on.

Is there Good, Better, Best? Or is there just Good/Evil. Is almost right, right? Or is Almost right, still wrong?

Think of some tests you've probably taken where you were supposed to pick the "best" answer among some other answers which were also true.

Or, take this one as an example:

God is:

a) our Father in heaven.

b) Jesus Christ

c) a term which is used to refer to only one person

d) a term which is used to refer to a specific "kind" of being

e) a kind of being which is both good and evil

f) all of the above

Please pick the best answer, several of which are good while some are better than others, and then give the correct answer to your own question.

[David T]

There's now a post dedicated to Dan Peterson's comments over at Mormon Coffee. I expected it after Rob's comment that 'this should be news'. Hooting and hollering then commenced.

His comments differentiating between what Muhammad may have personally taught, and what was eventually included in the Qur'an are never addressed by the commentators, of course.

[Vance]

AS said, "If Muhammad was a true prophet, it has profound implications for your life."

What a maroon!

[Cold Steel]

I don't see anything that specifically identifies Gog as being Muslim.

If you read the prophecies, the nations that come up against Jerusalem are the ones "round about" Israel. Zechariah especially mentions Egypt.

I know that this occurs within pockets of Islam. I'll also assume that this is an official retraction of your earlier, impossible-to-substantiate-because-it's-false claim that this is common behaviour amongst 'regular, everyday Muslims,' occurring at a six-to-one ratio over Muslims who don't kill or threaten converts.

I sure would if you can back up your stats. People who convert in Muslim communities normally keep it to themselves or find ways of protecting themselves. I read the account of one Muslim woman in Pakistan who converted. She was a member of the royal family and not only was she threatened, so was her son (they subsequently moved to California). I don't think our missionaries are in any Muslim countries. My nephew went to the Philippines on his mission and he said very few Muslims showed an interest in the church. Those who did had to keep it from their families in many cases. My wife also is a Muslim convert to Christianity and she won't let me tell any of her friends. I don't think her life would be endangered, but she doesn't want any trouble, especially if she goes back to visit her parents.

Er, I'm guessing you don't know who the Church's major partner is in providing 'disaster and hunger relief' in places such as Indonesia, Pakistan, and even overwhelmingly Christian Haiti?

I didn't, but those countries are also heavily Muslim, with the exception of Haiti. Still, I'm happy to hear it.

.

[Hamba Tuhan]

I sure would if you can back up your stats.

Mate, that's not how a CFR works. You made the original and impossible-to-support claim. You back it up, or it falls.

I don't think our missionaries are in any Muslim countries.

I guess it depends on how you define 'Muslim country.' The following are some of the nations which have majority Muslim populations and which also have LDS missionaries currently serving in them:

• Indonesia
  
• Nigeria
  
• Malaysia
  
• Kazakhstan
  
• Sierra Leone
  
• Albania
  

Other predominantly Muslim nations, such as Pakistan and Bangladesh, support growing branches of the Church.

The six nations listed above contain an estimated 305,367,515 Muslims, or 1/5 of the world's total.

[Maidservant]

*Takes a huge breath* I have tried to make points to many things that various people have said, but have not matched it up with individual people. Just consider the following general points that I consider critical no matter who or what they could have been in reply to. I'm sure I've missed something, but if I manage to get a few things across I'll be happy.

1. In Muslims, Jesus has over a billion people looking for his literal return, unlike many (not LDS) who have a Christian heritage and can no longer accept this promise as literal. The reason they do not accept Christ as God is because they have no wish to practice idolatry. There is one God. The fact that we take Christ or anyone else as (also) God whether trinitarian or otherwise, means that we have an "expanded" version of what one God means, and can you blame a group that loves God for objecting to this (justified or not) and for maintaining an "unexpanded" version of the oneness of God?

2. In Muslims, Heavenly Father has over a billion people keeping moral laws of chastity and of family tradition (not all Muslims, of course), and it is my opinion that this is a leaven of righteousness and cleanliness in the world that those who have a Christian or other heritage (not LDS) have failed at.

3. I have asked God two questions about Muhammad. The first was, when I was much younger than I am now, I felt I was being trained to view Muhammad and Islam as evil in spite of Muhammad's claim to have been told by God to "Recite!" and I asked God if he had talked to Muhammad (I didn't ask if he was a prophet, per se). From that prayer to this day forward, I have been guided by my Father in Heaven on a wondrous journey into knowledge of Islam and I think I can safely say that for myself I understand God's answer to me to be a resounding "yes". Later, I also felt that, at a time when I had a particulary Muslim friend and he was teaching me (and I was teaching him), I felt that to be honest with myself and with my personal beliefs about how we are asked to gain truth about the Book of Mormon, that I needed to humble myself and completely rid myself of a pre-answer, and ask God if he wanted me to join Islam. I thought I did a pretty good job of being ready for anything, I was nevertheless surprised to hear God answer me, "You choose." (Instead of a out-and-out "no".) And then I saw the consequences to my life (not necessarily good or bad, just difficult consequences) of if I was to join Islam. And so I relied on the fact that it was not expedient for me to join Islam (only possible), and that I already knew I had covenants with God, and, of course, didn't want to join Islam.

4. There's no battle between Isaac and Ishmael in the bible. They buried their father together. Esau married one of Ishmael's daughters (who was a wife in the covenant, similar to Rebekah) in order to please Isaac. Not to mention that semitic peoples some of which we call Arab may well be Israel despite their religious commitments in the present. Thus, God's covenant promises will be kept to them also.

5. Islam may not teach grace, per se, but they believe that God readily forgives and is merciful and that God's main attribute is mercy.

6. I was going to give a whole bunch of links as to how the Church is involved ecumenically, humanitarianally, and in articles on lds.org, etc, with Muslims on the church and local levels, but y'all know where lds.org is, and that one proclamation about Muhammed being inspired has already been posted in thread.

7. Historically speaking, Islam invented tolerance of differing religions, as there is foundation for it in the Quran. Whenever I go to an Islam chat room, and come to a place where I am asked my religion, and give it, the next thing they ALL say is, "Welcome! That's okay! That's great!" Sometimes they do try to debate or proselyte and I get asked if I'm Muslim yet a lot. But I meet all kinds and they have varying view points of the significance of my non-Muslimness, but the personal level welcome is unfailing.

8. God revealed to Muhammad to prepare the way for the Restoration of the Gospel, because without Islam, there would not have been a renaissance, reformation, enlightenment, or constitution . . . thus God was getting stuff ready for Joseph Smith all the way back with Muhammad. It was VERY DELIBERATE ON GOD'S PART, of course. Muhammad is an Elias (to Christ/restored church), as John, who was only administering a partial covenant was an Elias to Jesus Christ.

9. The idea that "benign"?? Muslims aren't speaking out against radical Islam isn't true, in my opinion. Most Muslims speak out against radical Islam, they just don't get any airplay in U.S. news mafias, which is a completely different proposition. And all of the war that has laid waste to the world over the last couple of centuries, the last couple of decades, cannot be laid at the feet of even radical Muslims. The western world has not been laid waste. The world that comprises mostly Muslims has. Hmmmmm. (see D & C 35: starting @ vs 7).

10. Islam is pointed to Christ. Hasn't arrived, but is pointed. That may be a matter of opinion, but hopefully one can see that it's possible to view things this way. Not to mention many Book of Mormon passages that talk about how God speaks to all his children in their own way. And I love this Book of Mormon discussion of what is good. Moroni 7:12-18 "Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually. But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God. Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil. For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night. For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unot you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God. But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil . . . And now, my brethren, seeing that ye know the light by which ye may judge, which light is the light of Christ, see that ye do no judge wrongfully; for with that same judgement which ye judge ye shall also be judged." verse 11 and verse 19 are also good. In fact verse 11 says "a servant of the devil cannot follow Christ". It doesn't say, "a servant of the devil doesn't follow Christ". Muslims, touched by the spirit as any investigator, are very prepared for following Christ as they follow the light they now have. Also these verses show that we need to recognize the GOOD in the world, and realize that all good come from God (not stated as Christ, here), NOT first deciding that someone's CONCEPTS are mistaken, thus it follow that they are not good. Mormon is precisely warning against the latter approach. Let us see how Islam fits in with the points that Mormon raises. A. Islam teaches and invites to do good. B. Islam teaches to NOT sin. C. Islam submits to God (is not fighting God), perhaps better than any other religion as far as teachings go. C. Islam teaches to love God and to serve God. D. Muslims for the most part follow the light of Christ they have been given, and the degree of law they have been given. E. Islam teaches to follow Christ (Mormon does not qualify WHAT needs to be taught about Christ, btw) and the teachings and message of Christ.

11. Islam, neither any particular group, is the antiChrist or abominable church. The abominable church has its infectious tentacles in all groups and systems. God is also informing many of the groups and systems of the world. Right now it is wheat and tares growing together, and we must choose carefully. But eventually the antiChrist portions will be refined out, and Christ will remain. Islam has just as much potential with this as anything, maybe more.

*Takes another gulp of air*

[David T]

That was awesome. Thank you.

*Takes a huge breath* I have tried to make points to many things that various people have said, but have not matched it up with individual people. Just consider the following general points that I consider critical no matter who or what they could have been in reply to. I'm sure I've missed something, but if I manage to get a few things across I'll be happy.

1. In Muslims, Jesus has over a billion people looking for his literal return, unlike many (not LDS) who have a Christian heritage and can no longer accept this promise as literal. The reason they do not accept Christ as God is because they have no wish to practice idolatry. There is one God. The fact that we take Christ or anyone else as (also) God whether trinitarian or otherwise, means that we have an "expanded" version of what one God means, and can you blame a group that loves God for objecting to this (justified or not) and for maintaining an "unexpanded" version of the oneness of God?

2. In Muslims, Heavenly Father has over a billion people keeping moral laws of chastity and of family tradition (not all Muslims, of course), and it is my opinion that this is a leaven of righteousness and cleanliness in the world that those who have a Christian or other heritage (not LDS) have failed at.

3. I have asked God two questions about Muhammad. The first was, when I was much younger than I am now, I felt I was being trained to view Muhammad and Islam as evil in spite of Muhammad's claim to have been told by God to "Recite!" and I asked God if he had talked to Muhammad (I didn't ask if he was a prophet, per se). From that prayer to this day forward, I have been guided by my Father in Heaven on a wondrous journey into knowledge of Islam and I think I can safely say that for myself I understand God's answer to me to be a resounding "yes". Later, I also felt that, at a time when I had a particulary Muslim friend and he was teaching me (and I was teaching him), I felt that to be honest with myself and with my personal beliefs about how we are asked to gain truth about the Book of Mormon, that I needed to humble myself and completely rid myself of a pre-answer, and ask God if he wanted me to join Islam. I thought I did a pretty good job of being ready for anything, I was nevertheless surprised to hear God answer me, "You choose." (Instead of a out-and-out "no".) And then I saw the consequences to my life (not necessarily good or bad, just difficult consequences) of if I was to join Islam. And so I relied on the fact that it was not expedient for me to join Islam (only possible), and that I already knew I had covenants with God, and, of course, didn't want to join Islam.

4. There's no battle between Isaac and Ishmael in the bible. They buried their father together. Esau married one of Ishmael's daughters (who was a wife in the covenant, similar to Rebekah) in order to please Isaac. Not to mention that semitic peoples some of which we call Arab may well be Israel despite their religious commitments in the present. Thus, God's covenant promises will be kept to them also.

5. Islam may not teach grace, per se, but they believe that God readily forgives and is merciful and that God's main attribute is mercy.

6. I was going to give a whole bunch of links as to how the Church is involved ecumenically, humanitarianally, and in articles on lds.org, etc, with Muslims on the church and local levels, but y'all know where lds.org is, and that one proclamation about Muhammed being inspired has already been posted in thread.

7. Historically speaking, Islam invented tolerance of differing religions, as there is foundation for it in the Quran. Whenever I go to an Islam chat room, and come to a place where I am asked my religion, and give it, the next thing they ALL say is, "Welcome! That's okay! That's great!" Sometimes they do try to debate or proselyte and I get asked if I'm Muslim yet a lot. But I meet all kinds and they have varying view points of the significance of my non-Muslimness, but the personal level welcome is unfailing.

8. God revealed to Muhammad to prepare the way for the Restoration of the Gospel, because without Islam, there would not have been a renaissance, reformation, enlightenment, or constitution . . . thus God was getting stuff ready for Joseph Smith all the way back with Muhammad. It was VERY DELIBERATE ON GOD'S PART, of course. Muhammad is an Elias (to Christ/restored church), as John, who was only administering a partial covenant was an Elias to Jesus Christ.

9. The idea that "benign"?? Muslims aren't speaking out against radical Islam isn't true, in my opinion. Most Muslims speak out against radical Islam, they just don't get any airplay in U.S. news mafias, which is a completely different proposition. And all of the war that has laid waste to the world over the last couple of centuries, the last couple of decades, cannot be laid at the feet of even radical Muslims. The western world has not been laid waste. The world that comprises mostly Muslims has. Hmmmmm. (see D & C 35: starting @ vs 7).

10. Islam is pointed to Christ. Hasn't arrived, but is pointed. That may be a matter of opinion, but hopefully one can see that it's possible to view things this way. Not to mention many Book of Mormon passages that talk about how God speaks to all his children in their own way. And I love this Book of Mormon discussion of what is good. Moroni 7:12-18 "Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually. But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God. Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil. For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night. For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unot you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God. But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil . . . And now, my brethren, seeing that ye know the light by which ye may judge, which light is the light of Christ, see that ye do no judge wrongfully; for with that same judgement which ye judge ye shall also be judged." verse 11 and verse 19 are also good. In fact verse 11 says "a servant of the devil cannot follow Christ". It doesn't say, "a servant of the devil doesn't follow Christ". Muslims, touched by the spirit as any investigator, are very prepared for following Christ as they follow the light they now have. Also these verses show that we need to recognize the GOOD in the world, and realize that all good come from God (not stated as Christ, here), NOT first deciding that someone's CONCEPTS are mistaken, thus it follow that they are not good. Mormon is precisely warning against the latter approach. Let us see how Islam fits in with the points that Mormon raises. A. Islam teaches and invites to do good. B. Islam teaches to NOT sin. C. Islam submits to God (is not fighting God), perhaps better than any other religion as far as teachings go. C. Islam teaches to love God and to serve God. D. Muslims for the most part follow the light of Christ they have been given, and the degree of law they have been given. E. Islam teaches to follow Christ (Mormon does not qualify WHAT needs to be taught about Christ, btw) and the teachings and message of Christ.

11. Islam, neither any particular group, is the antiChrist or abominable church. The abominable church has its infectious tentacles in all groups and systems. God is also informing many of the groups and systems of the world. Right now it is wheat and tares growing together, and we must choose carefully. But eventually the antiChrist portions will be refined out, and Christ will remain. Islam has just as much potential with this as anything, maybe more.

*Takes another gulp of air*

[Vance]

I don't think our missionaries are in any Muslim countries.

My son served in Malaysia. I think it is considered a Muslim country.

Pakistan was part of his mission. But only missionaries from Pakistan were allowed to serve in Pakistan.

I think we have missionaries in Indonesia as well. I say that because I was initially called to Indonesia (in 1977), but 5 days later I got a second letter changing my field of labor to the Philippines.

[Jason]

If you read the prophecies, the nations that come up against Jerusalem are the ones "round about" Israel. Zechariah especially mentions Egypt.

That doesn't mean they will be Muslim nations. Yes they are Muslim now. Will they still be at the time of the second coming?

And does "round about" really mean "adjacent to" or just "in the world" in the modern age?

[LeSellers]

I think we have missionaries in Indonesia as well.

We do have missionaries in Indonesia. A sister in our ward recently returned from this country which has more Muslims than any other in the world.

Lehi

[Cold Steel]

That doesn't mean they will be Muslim nations. Yes they are Muslim now. Will they still be at the time of the second coming? And does "round about" really mean "adjacent to" or just "in the world" in the modern age?

Certainly...in my opinion. Now that Judah has gathered to Israel's ancestral homeland, their enemies are almost exclusively Muslim. In fact, the Muslims want Israel as another Muslim country; and they want Jerusalem in particular. One reason "peace" talks have failed is because the Palestinians want all of Jerusalem as part of their demands. They want a homeland and they want all of Jerusalem.

In Revelation, John writes of a sixth seal earthquake that will devastate the Earth. Other "prophets" such as Mother Shipton and the Sybil also predicted it. John writes: "And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; and the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; and said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

I suspect that some nations will fall, while others will be taken over by the Beast who will arise. I also suspect that the earthquake will destroy the Muslim edifices now on the Temple Mount. If so, then the Jews will have to accept that as a sign from God to build their temple. The Muslim community will not agree, and when the Jews begin building it, they will begin to amass regional opposition. "All nations" would of course include the Muslim nations that surround Israel. Zechariah writes:

In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them. And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. Zechariah 12

And:

For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. Zechariah 14

The two prophets the Lord calls will stand against these nations until they're killed three and a half years into the battle. After the Messiah comes, only a sixth part will be left of Gog's army. I suspect this sixth part will be made up of good, decent people who were inducted into the army or otherwise innocent and deserving of life. Jerusalem also will be ravaged and many of the Jews will be killed.

Zechariah writes: "And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles." (Chapter 14)

These nations would have to be those surrounding Israel if they were to come to Jerusalem. And notice that "the family of Egypt" is specifically mentioned.

We know that no one not living at least a Terrestrial law will perish at the Lord's coming, so why wouldn't the family of Egypt want to come and take part in this great event -- the coming of the Messiah and Savior of the World? Again, I suspect it will be because it will be because their faith will be shattered. The Lord comes, but there is no Mahdi, no Muhammad. It will be according to the Hebrew scriptures, not the Qur'an. (Can you imagine if the battle comes down as prophesied by Muhammad -- how the Christians would feel? We'd be devastated. We certainly would not want to go to Mecca or Medina to offer worship.) It's possible that many in Egypt and other nations will think that the returning Christ is the al-Mas?? ad-Da???l, the false messiah. Muhammad told his followers: "Be aware! he will claim to be God and try to create doubts in your minds. Have a firm belief, the one-eyed creature cannot be your Lord." When Jesus came to the Nephites, he said he was the "God of Israel and the God of the whole Earth." If he does the same with the Jews, word of it may reach the Muslims, who do not believe Jesus to be God. So they may resist the returning Christ.

So the Second Coming will either go down as we LDS think it will or as the Muslims think it will. But there's little doubt that the surrounding nations will be against Israel. In fact, all of Europe and Asia may be involved (depending on what "all nations" mean). The U.S. and Canada will have ceased to exist, as well as Mexico and other nations in the West. Only Zion and perhaps other pockets of people will be left in North America -- so the U.S. will not be involved in the attack on Jerusalem.

.

[Hamba Tuhan]

Wow, you've really got this whole thing figured out, hey?

In fact, all of Europe and Asia may be involved (depending on what "all nations" mean).

Yeah, cos it wouldn't help your interpretation too much if 'all nations' meant, say, all nations instead of mostly just the Muslim world....

The U.S. and Canada will have ceased to exist, as well as Mexico and other nations in the West.

Interesting. You should have shared this insight with Pres Hinckley before he passed on so that he wouldn't have been leading people astray. Specifically, when I was living in America, I heard him in a fireside castigate those who were pessimistic about the survival of the US as a nation. He told us that such people didn't understand the role which the US had been foreordained to play in the last days. Go figure.

Of course, you should probably have let Pres Kimball know it was an equally bad idea to be telling people that Muhammad was inspired of God....

[Cold Steel]

You should have shared this insight with Pres Hinckley before he passed on so that he wouldn't have been leading people astray. Specifically, when I was living in America, I heard him in a fireside castigate those who were pessimistic about the survival of the U.S. as a nation. He told us that such people didn't understand the role which the US had been foreordained to play in the last days. Go figure.

I may not know much, but I do know prophecy. This may have been Hinckley's opinion, but for it to be true, many prophets in our church history would have to have uttered false prophecies. Daniel and others saw the destruction of all nations. And Joseph Smith said:

Take away the Book of Mormon and the revelations, and where is our religion? We have none; for without Zion, and a place of deliverance, we must fall; because the time is near when the sun will be darkened, and the moon turn to blood, and the stars fall from the heaven, and the earth reel to and fro. Then, if this is the case, and if we are not sanctified and gathered to the places God has appointed, with all our former professions and our great love for the Bible, we must fall; we cannot stand; we cannot be saved; for God will gather out his Saints from the Gentiles, and then comes desolation and destruction, and none can escape except the pure in heart who are gathered. (Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, selected and arranged by Joseph Fielding Smith, p.70)

Once the saints are gathered out of the nations, destruction comes next. Then civil war.

When you are endowed and prepared to preach the Gospel to all nations, kindred, and tongues, in their own languages, you must faithfully warn all, and bind up the testimony, and seal up the law, and the destroying angel will follow close at your heels, and exercise his tremendous mission upon the children of disobedience; and destroy the workers of iniquity, while the Saints will be gathered out from among them, and stand in holy places ready to meet the Bridegroom when he comes. (Joseph Smith, History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 7 vols. 2:309)

Heber C. Kimball said:

So it will be eventually in the United States. After the truth is all gathered out, you will find that the rest will be destroyed. I do not mean that the land will be destroyed, but I refer to the wicked inhabitants, and the Earth will be emptied, according to the words of the Prophet. Why will this be so? Because there are no saving principles there: the saving principles are with this Church, and there is no salvation in the absence of those principles. (Journal of Discourses, 26 vols., 6:, p.185

[Muc'ul Ajwalil]

These are indeed interesting times. Currency is circulating at nearly six times the volume of just a couple of years ago after QE-2.

As for the Muslims, I think they are generally a great people, with some bad apples. Same could be said about ANY religion. They do have lots of correct principles, such as prayer multiple times a day, fasting, a system similar to that of tithes, and a culture that a thousand years ago was unmatched anywhere in the world, as the learning centers were centered all in the Muslim world.

[Maidservant]

Certainly...in my opinion. Now that Judah has gathered to Israel's ancestral homeland, their enemies are almost exclusively Muslim. In fact, the Muslims want Israel as another Muslim country; and they want Jerusalem in particular. One reason "peace" talks have failed is because the Palestinians want all of Jerusalem as part of their demands. They want a homeland and they want all of Jerusalem.

In Revelation, John writes of a sixth seal earthquake that will devastate the Earth. Other "prophets" such as Mother Shipton and the Sybil also predicted it. John writes: "And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; and the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; and said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

I suspect that some nations will fall, while others will be taken over by the Beast who will arise. I also suspect that the earthquake will destroy the Muslim edifices now on the Temple Mount. If so, then the Jews will have to accept that as a sign from God to build their temple. The Muslim community will not agree, and when the Jews begin building it, they will begin to amass regional opposition. "All nations" would of course include the Muslim nations that surround Israel. Zechariah writes:

In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them. And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. Zechariah 12

And:

For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. Zechariah 14

The two prophets the Lord calls will stand against these nations until they're killed three and a half years into the battle. After the Messiah comes, only a sixth part will be left of Gog's army. I suspect this sixth part will be made up of good, decent people who were inducted into the army or otherwise innocent and deserving of life. Jerusalem also will be ravaged and many of the Jews will be killed.

Zechariah writes: "And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles." (Chapter 14)

These nations would have to be those surrounding Israel if they were to come to Jerusalem. And notice that "the family of Egypt" is specifically mentioned.

We know that no one not living at least a Terrestrial law will perish at the Lord's coming, so why wouldn't the family of Egypt want to come and take part in this great event -- the coming of the Messiah and Savior of the World? Again, I suspect it will be because it will be because their faith will be shattered. The Lord comes, but there is no Mahdi, no Muhammad. It will be according to the Hebrew scriptures, not the Qur'an. (Can you imagine if the battle comes down as prophesied by Muhammad -- how the Christians would feel? We'd be devastated. We certainly would not want to go to Mecca or Medina to offer worship.) It's possible that many in Egypt and other nations will think that the returning Christ is the al-Mas?? ad-Da???l, the false messiah. Muhammad told his followers: "Be aware! he will claim to be God and try to create doubts in your minds. Have a firm belief, the one-eyed creature cannot be your Lord." When Jesus came to the Nephites, he said he was the "God of Israel and the God of the whole Earth." If he does the same with the Jews, word of it may reach the Muslims, who do not believe Jesus to be God. So they may resist the returning Christ.

So the Second Coming will either go down as we LDS think it will or as the Muslims think it will. But there's little doubt that the surrounding nations will be against Israel. In fact, all of Europe and Asia may be involved (depending on what "all nations" mean). The U.S. and Canada will have ceased to exist, as well as Mexico and other nations in the West. Only Zion and perhaps other pockets of people will be left in North America -- so the U.S. will not be involved in the attack on Jerusalem.

.

I'm positive you've studied matters relating to the last days a great deal more than I have, so I respect that. But there are so many different ways to understand even some of the same things you've quoted. Not least, why conflate "Jerusalem" with the state of Israel? Jerusalem has already been destroyed to the inhabitants who once lived there, who are more likely the bloodline descendants of God's covenants with Israel than those who emigrated. I know what I have to say about it is not necessarily the only way to look at it either, obviously, so I am just holding an opinion. I have also had the thought that the two prophets in Jerusalem, the two sons, ARE Jews and Palestinians . . . they both have a testament to make, and peace seems impossible (death), yet they will be resurrected (learn to have peace). One of the reasons I believe this is because I am witnessing this in the making at the ground, human level (not necessarily politically). It remains to be seen what can really come of it.

These are indeed interesting times. Currency is circulating at nearly six times the volume of just a couple of years ago after QE-2.

As for the Muslims, I think they are generally a great people, with some bad apples. Same could be said about ANY religion. They do have lots of correct principles, such as prayer multiple times a day, fasting, a system similar to that of tithes, and a culture that a thousand years ago was unmatched anywhere in the world, as the learning centers were centered all in the Muslim world.

I find it unutterably interesting that many of the types of differences that LDS Christians have from sectarian Christianty, many of the restorations and clarifications of the gospel, are actually matched by, or could be considered an infusion of, Islamic principles, if one didn't already know that Joseph Smith received them directly from God. But it's worth pondering (not that Joseph got these things from Islam, of course not, but that the same God talked to Muhammad).