Was Joseph Smith in error?

[zerinus]

This morning in seminary class, the teacher related the story of how Oliver Cowdery believed Joseph Smith was in error in what has come to be canonized in D&C 20:37, and wrote him a letter commanding him in the name of the Lord to remove it from the revelation.

Cowdery had several Whitmers behind him, and Joseph Smith refused to remove the offending passage, but worked long and hard with all opposing parties to convince them of its truth.

This story was related in order to illustrate that there is only one person at a time who is authorized to receive revelation for the Church.

I asked the teacher if she knew what it was about the passage that was so controversial.

She allowed as how she did not, even though she had just read it from her manual.

I asked what the purpose of baptism is.

Everybody knew the answer--for the remission of sins.

I then said that the passage was so controversial because it says that in order to qualify for baptism, a person has to first "truly manifest by their works that they have received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins."

Oliver Cowdery, et al, believed that it was through baptism that one obtained a remission of their sins, and hence thought Joseph Smith in error on the subject.

The teacher read the passage again from her manual and the light went on for her.

I would like very much to have known what Joseph said to Oliver to get him to change his mind on the subject.

In the meantime, does anybody here have any thoughts on the subject?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

The Spirit's confirmation to me is that what is taught in D&C 20:37 is doctrinally correct, if that is of any help.

[Obiwan]

I appreciate your efforts to reconcile D&C 20:37 with currently received LDS doctrine.

But doesn't this just create another problem?

If number four (after baptism for the remission of sins) is the laying on of hands for receipt of the Gift of the Holy Ghost, why is it that the Holy Ghost (OK, the "Spirit of Christ") is received unto the remission of sins PRIOR to baptism in D&C 20:37?

And really, if all of these wonderful things happen BEFORE the ordinance is performed, it leaves one to wonder why these ordinances have to be performed at all, not to mention why they are considered "essential to salvation."

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

The "spirit of Christ" is not the Gift of the Holy Ghost or in other words the Baptism by Fire. Though, it could be said that the spirit of Christ is part of that baptism by fire, a necessary precursor. The Articles of Faith show the basic necessary "process" all of which is part of conversion, baptism, etc. Any part missing and, thus we have the need for a Restoration.

[TAO]

Hello BCSpace,

For clarity, if I may ask:

Does this mean that only LDS will spend eternity in the presence of God?

There will indeed be A LOT of elbow room for y'all, no?

Peace,

Ceeboo

Nah, it means those who don't accept their baptism for the dead (everyone who hasn't gotten baptized LDS on Earth will get the chance to accept this up there).

And actually... that's what's been taught the entire time...

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

P.S. The place where seminary is held is far from our house, so I am unable to just drop my daughter off, but have to wait and take her to school afterward; that's why I am "attending" seminary, though in actuality I am just periodically "auditing" the class.

That must be an intimidating audit

[DispensatorMysteriorum]

I would like very much to have known what Joseph said to Oliver to get him to change his mind on the subject.

In the meantime, does anybody here have any thoughts on the subject?

Maybe he quoted the Book of Mormon to Oliver?

"Therefore, there were ordained of Nephi, men unto this ministry, that all such as should come unto them should be baptized with water, and this as a witness and a testimony before God, and unto the people, that they had repented and received a remission of their sins." (3 Nephi 7:25).

[Ceeboo]

Nah, it means those who don't accept their baptism for the dead (everyone who hasn't gotten baptized LDS on Earth will get the chance to accept this up there).

Ahhhhhh!

That is GREAT news for folks like me (A Joseph Smith mulligan of sorts)

Considering the mind boggling numbers of "everyone who hasn't gotten baptized LDS on Earth), I would imagine that this will be some line of people. A traffic jam indeed (I better pack a lunch and few cold drinks )

Peace,

Ceeboo

[Nathair/|\]

Hello BCSpace,

For clarity, if I may ask:

Does this mean that only LDS will spend eternity in the presence of God?

There will indeed be A LOT of elbow room for y'all, no?

Peace,

Ceeboo

Well, Ceeboo, I'm planning to take off and spend a few billion years watching everything from mayflies through oak trees to galaxies go through their life cycles so I will need some to house sit for me.

Actually, I am sure you will be to busy with your own Godly activities. As I understand it, anyone who follows the light they are given receive all that our Father wants to give us. I might even be cribbing off your notes.

Yours under the unready oaks,

Nathair /|\

[Lightbearer]

I appreciate your efforts to reconcile D&C 20:37 with currently received LDS doctrine.

But doesn't this just create another problem?

If number four (after baptism for the remission of sins) is the laying on of hands for receipt of the Gift of the Holy Ghost, why is it that the Holy Ghost (OK, the "Spirit of Christ") is received unto the remission of sins PRIOR to baptism in D&C 20:37?

And really, if all of these wonderful things happen BEFORE the ordinance is performed, it leaves one to wonder why these ordinances have to be performed at all, not to mention why they are considered "essential to salvation."

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

You are wresting the scripture here, that is not what it is saying at all:

(D&C 20:37)"And again, by way of commandment to the church concerning the manner of baptism

[MDalby]

Current version of D&C 20:37

37 And again, by way of commandment to the church concerning the manner of baptism

[TAO]

Ahhhhhh!

That is GREAT news for folks like me (A Joseph Smith mulligan of sorts)

Considering the mind boggling numbers of "everyone who hasn't gotten baptized LDS on Earth), I would imagine that this will be some line of people. A traffic jam indeed (I better pack a lunch and few cold drinks )

Peace,

Ceeboo

Well it would be... except it's already going on right now... it happens at the moment someone baptizes you for the dead in proxy... thus the reason why we keep genealogical records... alot of the work will be done when the Lord comes again, but eventually, ever single human soul that has ever existed on this Earth will have this work done for them... an ultimately level playing field, indeed.

But yah, people aren't baptized for the dead (or for that matter, resurrected) all at once.

[jo1952]

This makes some degree of sense, but isn't there that pesky fourth Article of Faith?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Good point. I would say, though, that the "covenant" mentioned in the fourth Article of Faith is the actual performance of the baptism "promise", which should not be confused with when exactly a person's sins are forgiven.

God bless,

jo

[jo1952]

Ceeboo, as someone who's LDS, I agree with you.

Along with the recognition we have than in the end, eventually everyone will come to a knowledge of the truth of God and His Kingdom, all will be given the opportunity to submit to his authority, be cleansed of sin, and enter into His Kingdom (The kingdoms/degrees of Glory are all a part of God's kingdom), or choose to remain outside (Outer Darkness).

Within the Kingdom of God are degrees of glory where individuals will be comfortable according to who they are - who they are will determine their proximity to God. Those who submitted to the Lord completely and did His will as it was made known to them, of their own free will in choice, will have been cleansed by the attendant Spirit, and their consciences, wills, and desires will be clear that will be able to comfortably and joyously dwell in God's presence. The remaining 'courts' will be where those will be who did not fully humbly submit to the Lord, and allow His spirit to fully cleanse their wills and desires, by degrees. I do not believe there will be bouncersd keeping people from one court/kingdom/degree to another, but individuals will keep themselves in check, based on the proximity they will feel comfortable and endurable in approaching.

LDS Doctrine teaches that authorized Baptism now is the gate that leads towards a complete cleansing by the spirit that leads one to be able to dwell in God's presence. It is taught that all except a very few will eventually accept and recognize the authorized Covenant of Citizenship in God's Kingdom (whether in this life, or the hereafter), enter into a Covenant with Christ the King, and receive a remission of their sins. However, this does not mean a change in their natures - it does not mean the rebellious in heart will have the time and opportunity to be sanctified, and able to endure God's presence - even though they would be allowed to enter there. There's a big difference between being allowed in God's presence, and being able to endure it.

So I believe that a vast majority will end up in God's Kingdom. I do believe, however, that the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the Lord's best instrument to best prepare His Children in this life to not only be admitted into his presence, but to prepare them to be ready for it when the time comes.

In the end, it won't be different interpretations of knowledge that keeps one from God's presence. It will be who you have become.

Alma 5 gives the best discourse on personal questions to ask yourself to know whether you would be ready to dwell with God. Of note: He's giving this sermon to baptized members of the authorized Church who are not prepared to meet God.

I'm sure there will be many who are Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, and Catholic(!) today, and even at their death, who in the last day will pass by members of this Church who have gone through the ropes of being baptized, endowed, and sealed-in-this-life that will not be able to abide dwelling in God's presence because they choose not to give up their pride, and view themselves as better than the others. God is far more loving, and has expressed his loving will far clearer than even many LDS give Him credit for.

Matthew 21:28-32

28

[jo1952]

You are wresting the scripture here, that is not what it is saying at all: Note that it does not say they receive the gift of the Holy Ghost prior to baptism, and also "unto the remission of their sins" does not mean they actually enjoy a remission of sins until after baptism. It is obvious to anyone who has studied the scriptures and the teachings of the Prophet Joseph that is not what he was teaching in this verse, the Prophet Joseph also taught that there was a difference from receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost (and it's attendant remission of sins) and receiving the witness of the Holy Ghost as stated here:So try as you might to confound the scriptures and the doctrines of the Church, it is all too evident that you are dead wrong.

Hmmm, I don't see that Consiglieri is making any kind of judgment in trying to be either "correct" or "wrong". Rather, I see his questions as being posed to make US think about what our beliefs really look like. I could be wrong, though.

God bless,

jo

[why me]

This morning in seminary class, the teacher related the story of how Oliver Cowdery believed Joseph Smith was in error in what has come to be canonized in D&C 20:37, and wrote him a letter commanding him in the name of the Lord to remove it from the revelation.

Cowdery had several Whitmers behind him, and Joseph Smith refused to remove the offending passage, but worked long and hard with all opposing parties to convince them of its truth.

This story was related in order to illustrate that there is only one person at a time who is authorized to receive revelation for the Church.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I think that a different issue is: If oliver, david, and Joseph were in on the so called fraud as many critics claim, this whole conversation between these people would be mute. Critics claim that joseph and oliver were complicit in implementing a fraud of immense proportion. However, if this were the case I don't think that this scene would have happened without someone having loose lips and letting things slip out. The whole idea that there were these kind of disagreements and arguments tend to support that these individuals were not partners in a fraud at all.

[zerinus]

Considering that the LDS make up a mere fraction of one single percent of Christ followers, I would suggest that there will be A WHOLE LOT (99 plus% of Christians) that will not spend eternity in the presence of All Loving God. Under no circumstance do I find this teaching to be even a remote possibility.

That is not quite what we teach. Have a look at these verses:

D&C 137

:

7 Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;

8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;

9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.

But there is a proviso: if you already have had the opportunity to accept the fullness of the Restored gospel in this life, and ample testimony have been borne to you of the truth of it, and you have failed to take advantage of that opportunity, it is unlikely that you will get a second chance afterwards.

Another point that you need to bear in mind is that heaven is graded. Paul tells us that there are three heavens (2 Corinthians 12:2); and the requirements of entering each heaven is different. If you enter into one of the lower heavens you are still

[Robert F. Smith]

Maybe he quoted the Book of Mormon to Oliver?

"Therefore, there were ordained of Nephi, men unto this ministry, that all such as should come unto them should be baptized with water, and this as a witness and a testimony before God, and unto the people, that they had repented and received a remission of their sins." (3 Nephi 7:25).

Moroni 8:25

25 And the first fruits of repentance is baptism; and baptism cometh by faith unto the fulfilling the commandments; and the fulfilling the commandments bringeth remission of sins;

You guys are on to something here. As Noel Reynolds pointed out in detail at the recent Maxwell Institute Symposium on Symbolism, the Book of Mormon holds the key to understanding this particular principle, not merely a few brief words written by Joseph to a newspaper editor summarizing the Mormon faith (which was later canonized as the Articles of Faith). We must go deeper.

I'll put my notes on Reynolds' paper here in this thread (he said that it will be published, but didn't say when or where).

[Robert F. Smith]

From my notes of the 17 Sept 2010 Symposium on Symbolism held at BYU by the Maxwell Institute:

Evening Session

Noel Reynolds "Witnessing Covenant: the Symbolism of Baptism and Sacrament in the Book of Mormon"

stated that there will be a published version of this paper

in NT water washes away sins, without an explicit reference to repentance

Paul may have invented the notion of being buried with Christ in baptism

however, in Book of Mormon, the cleansing agent is the blood of Christ or Holy Ghost (Moroni 6:4)

garments are washed white through the blood of the Lamb, and sanctified by the Holy Ghost (Alma 13:11-12, Moroni 6:4)

must repent and be born again -- spiritual rebirth!! (Alma 5:29, 7:14)

baptism is a covenantal sign or symbolic act that the convert has already repented and taken on an obligation to obey the commandments of Jesus,

cf. I Ne 10:18, II Ne 31:7,13-14, Alma 7:15

that baptismal covenant precedes baptism because it is linked to repentance -- taking on the name of Christ, and following the Savior into the waters of baptism (II Ne 31:13)

then cometh baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost.

in BofM remission of sins is not directly connected to baptism in water, but to fire and the Holy Ghost (II Ne 31:17)

remission is at the discretion of the Father

for Moroni, the firstfruits of baptism is repentance.

[Robert F. Smith]

Oliver was a smart man (and he said so!), but his pride got the better of him at several points, including the time that he assumed that he could translate the Book of Mormon, and came up short. Like a number of other leading brethren of the Church, he apostatized because he thought he knew better than the unlearned and joyful Prophet.

It isn't only the matter of baptism which stuck in his craw. He also told Joseph that he was wrong and impractical about the Law of Consecration & Stewardship, i.e., he didn't agree with the economy of God -- literally.

[jo1952]

I think that a different issue is: If oliver, david, and Joseph were in on the so called fraud as many critics claim, this whole conversation between these people would be mute. Critics claim that joseph and oliver were complicit in implementing a fraud of immense proportion. However, if this were the case I don't think that this scene would have happened without someone having loose lips and letting things slip out. The whole idea that there were these kind of disagreements and arguments tend to support that these individuals were not partners in a fraud at all.

The ancient Apostles were not always in total agreement either. See how Peter was the one to receive the vision of circumsion and about partaking food with the Gentiles. It was at that time the Holy Spirit descended upon the Gentiles Peter was teaching, much to the surprise of the Jewish converts who were with Peter and witnessed this. Up until that point they thought that Christ belonged only to the Hebrew. The Apostles and other members of the Church who were not with Peter at that time needed to be taught by Peter when he returned to Jerusalem. So, we can see that not everyone received knowledge from the Holy Spirit at the same time. The same is true today. The Holy Spirit isn't revealing different truth to different people; they receive knowledge as they are prepared to accept and understand it. And some truths they accept on faith while other truths are manifested to them personally by the Holy Spirit.

God bless,

jo

[consiglieri]

Maybe he quoted the Book of Mormon to Oliver?

"Therefore, there were ordained of Nephi, men unto this ministry, that all such as should come unto them should be baptized with water, and this as a witness and a testimony before God, and unto the people, that they had repented and received a remission of their sins." (3 Nephi 7:25).

Now, THIS is something of interest.

A Book of Mormon precedent for D&C 20:37.

I find that after 30+ years in the Church and after a commensurate number of readings through the Book of Mormon, I still have much to learn from this remarkable book.

Thanks, DM, for bringing this to my attention.

This is precisely why I post such questions--so that through batting them about, one better versed than I can teach me something.

It is interesting that the fourth Article of Faith is the one that seems to get all the play, though, and perhaps the comment is good that we should not rest all our belief in a brief synopsis written for a newspaper editor.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Lightbearer]

This is precisely why I post such questions--so that through batting them about, one better versed than I can teach me something.

It is interesting that the fourth Article of Faith is the one that seems to get all the play, though, and perhaps the comment is good that we should not rest all our belief in a brief synopsis written for a newspaper editor.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Yes and it is also interesting what this scripture says:

(2 Nephi 31:11-13) "And the Father said: Repent ye, repent ye, and be baptized in the name of my Beloved Son. And also, the voice of the Son came unto me, saying: He that is baptized in my name, to him will the Father give the Holy Ghost, like unto me; wherefore, follow me, and do the things which ye have seen me do. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, I know that if ye shall follow the Son, with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism

[consiglieri]

Yes and it is also interesting what this scripture says: Looks like this scripture is in line with what the Articles of Faith teaches... and it agrees with the correct reading of D&C 20:37, which apparently for your own reasons you force an interpertation that is not intended.

You are certainly right that the Book of Mormon scripture you cite is in line with the fourth Article of Faith.

How interesting it should not line up with 3 Nephi 7:35 and D&C 20:35.

Your saying that D&C 20:37 teaches the same thing is like Elder Bruce R. McConkie teaching that the fifth Lecture on Faith teaches the modern LDS version of the Godhead.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Curtis Weber]

...only members of the Church can inherit the Celestial or Terrestial.

I don't know whether some one has pointed out the error of this statement as unbaptized persons may indeed inherit the terrestrial kingdom: "A man may be saved, after the judgment, in the terrestrial kingdom, or in the telestial kingdom, but he can never see the celestial kingdom of God, without being born of water and the Spirit" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 12).

And from Joseph Fielding Smith:

"GOSPEL ORDINANCES FOR CELESTIAL KINGDOM ONLY. Will those who enter the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms have to have the ordinance of baptism? No! Baptism is the door into the celestial kingdom. The Lord made this clear to Nicodemus. We are not preaching a salvation for the inhabitants of the terrestrial or the telestial kingdoms. All of the ordinances of the gospel pertain to the celestial kingdom..." (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:329).

[ERMD]

I still question your presence in the Seminary class. If you are "auditing" the class, then why are you making attempts to stymie the teacher? Are you raising these questions in class, or aftewards in confidence? I'm sure the parents of the students and their bishop would be interested in your level of participation. Actually, I'm surprised the teacher hasn't questioned your "auditing", since adult attendance is not encouraged by CES (I wonder why?).

It's my hope that you are using some common sense here. Discussions online or amongst peers is one thing; a Seminary class has different goals, in many respects. Having been a Seminary teacher and now a bishop, I would encourage you to use some discretion.

[CV75]

In the meantime, does anybody here have any thoughts on the subject?

When I run a search for