The Early Christian Agapetae or Virgins; "The Cosmic "Mystery" of the Church"

[Ahab]

If ordinances were taught by ALL the apostles and then were taken to other parts of the known world we can rightfully assume that there would and should be scattered fragments of the truth and there will be parallels mixed within the different communities scattered over time. How hard is that to understand?

I think the more pertinent question to ask is: How hard is that for everyone to agree with?

[juliann]

I don't think you can make a case that one person secretly taking a second wife is bringing in anything except embarrassment to Luther when it was exposed. Did this result in anyone else engaging in polygamy or official approval? Of course not.

I am still not understanding how a tale of celibacy...like Thecla...supports polygamy. She wasn't married to Paul in any sense, celibate or otherwise. In fact, he lies about knowing her and abandons her as she faces death. I would think her baptizing herself with his approval would be problematic, as well. This genre has women leaving their husbands to become celibate, is that acceptable? I'm not trying to be argumentative. I just think these texts have to be used carefully. We can't just pick out parts we like and ignore all the strange stuff without a lot of explaining.

[Hannah Rebekah]

'

Hello Hannah,

According to my understanding of what you have said, I believe you and I are on the same page on this issue.

The fact that a woman is sealed to a man as his wife doesn't necessarily mean the man and woman have "sex" with each other, or with anyone else, although they could with there being nothing wrong with it since, after all, they are both married to each other.

Yes...that is exactly what I got out of all of this. Thank you.

Not that all quotes are related but enough give a picture that corresponses, at least in my mind with the Restored Gospel and Joseph and his sealings. If ones can assume that Joseph had sex with all the 'sisters' he was sealed to how hard is it to assume that he possibly did not have sexual relations such as the 'virgins' in the early Church. Both are plausible but I prefer to go with his sealings being non-sexual and spiritual in nature. It fits more with his teachings and his virtuous nature.

[juliann]

If ordinances were taught by ALL the apostles and then were taken to other parts of the known world we can rightfully assume that there would and should be scattered fragments of the truth and there will be parallels mixed within the different communities scattered over time. How hard is that to understand?

The question you have to deal with is how hard is that to demonstrate? You have to provide some link, some common and continuing thread that shows dependence. If your assumption is that truth was scattered how do you know that the strange stuff (and there is a lot more of that) wasn't truth without using circular reasoning?

I get that you are trying to create a basis for polygamy but I don't understand what the celibacy quotes have to do with it.

[juliann]

Yes...that is exactly what I got out of all of this. Thank you.

Not that all quotes are related but enough give a picture that corresponses, at least in my mind with the Restored Gospel and Joseph and his sealings. If ones can assume that Joseph had sex with all the 'sisters' he was sealed to how hard is it to assume that he possibly did not have sexual relations such as the 'virgins' in the early Church. Both are plausible but I prefer to go with his sealings being non-sexual and spiritual in nature. It fits more with his teachings and his virtuous nature.

So those who did engage in polygamous marriages weren't virtuous....?

[Hannah Rebekah]

I don't think you can make a case that one person secretly taking a second wife is bringing in anything except embarrassment to Luther when it was exposed. Did this result in anyone else engaging in polygamy or official approval? Of course not.

I am still not understanding how a tale of celibacy...like Thecla...supports polygamy. She wasn't married to Paul in any sense, celibate or otherwise. In fact, he lies about knowing her and abandons her as she faces death. I would think her baptizing herself with his approval would be problematic, as well. This genre has women leaving their husbands to become celibate, is that acceptable? I'm not trying to be argumentative. I just think these texts have to be used carefully. We can't just pick out parts we like and ignore all the strange stuff without a lot of explaining.

Agreed...yet anyone can reason that myth and legend can be based on truth that was corrupted...the perils of history. And you are right that one should be careful. Yet you have not addressed the verses quoted from the New Testament. Why is that? And while we are at it lets throw in an element of an "Abrahamic test" elements that IMO seem to be an element to the story of the "virgins" as well as with Joseph Smith.

And if there were ordinance mixing as some of our scholar have mused, such as "washing and anointings" which were called a second baptism. We all know that women temple workers in the restored temple perform this ordinance in the temple on other women so I don't see her baptizing herself or others as a real problem only that IMO there are shadows of truth mixed with error one could muse about .

[Ahab]

Yes...that is exactly what I got out of all of this. Thank you.

Not that all quotes are related but enough give a picture that corresponses, at least in my mind with the Restored Gospel and Joseph and his sealings. If ones can assume that Joseph had sex with all the 'sisters' he was sealed to how hard is it to assume that he possibly did not have sexual relations such as the 'virgins' in the early Church. Both are plausible but I prefer to go with his sealings being non-sexual and spiritual in nature. It fits more with his teachings and his virtuous nature.

You're not saying there would be something not-virtuous about Joseph having "sex" with any one of his wives, are you?

If he had "sex" with any one of his wives, there would have been nothing at all wrong because she was, after all, his wife.

The "mystery" is pretty much just about trying to figure out what is good and what is evil regarding those who are married or sealed, to those who don't know.

[Hannah Rebekah]

So those who did engage in polygamous marriages weren't virtuous....?

Not in my mind....

I was talking about polyandry. It's obvious that Paul was talking about two different types of marriages and both were scantioned by God and the Church even though we may not know all the paticulars that made them different....maybe the differences were part of the mysteries to be had in the temple. Some of Joseph's "celestial sealing" or polygamist marriages were for the sole purpose to "raise up righteous seed unto the Lord" as the Book of Mormon teaches and they would have been as virtuous as a purely plantonic marriage that was more of a spiritual nature. It's all such a "mystery."

[Hannah Rebekah]

You're not saying there would be something not-virtuous about Joseph having "sex" with any one of his wives, are you?

If he had "sex" with any one of his wives, there would have been nothing at all wrong because she was, after all, his wife.

The "mystery" is pretty much just about trying to figure out what is good and what is evil regarding those who are married or sealed, to those who don't know.

Not saying that at all. I believe Joseph was purely virtuous no matter the true nature of any of his marriages. You are right...."If he had "sex" with any one of his wives, there would have been nothing at all wrong because she was, after all, his wife.' We just don't know the exact nature of all or any of his marriages and as far as I'm concerned...it's all between God and Joseph. He was a true prophet of God in every sense of the word.

[Hannah Rebekah]

The question you have to deal with is how hard is that to demonstrate? You have to provide some link, some common and continuing thread that shows dependence. If your assumption is that truth was scattered how do you know that the strange stuff (and there is a lot more of that) wasn't truth without using circular reasoning?

I get that you are trying to create a basis for polygamy but I don't understand what the celibacy quotes have to do with it.

Easy.....the celibacy quotes fit in my mind with the misunderstood polyandrous marriages.

[juliann]

Agreed...yet anyone can reason that myth and legend can be based on truth that was corrupted...the perils of history. And you are right that one should be careful. Yet you have not addressed the verses quoted from the New Testament. Why is that? And while we are at it lets throw in an element of an "Abrahamic test" elements that IMO seem to be an element to the story of the "virgins" as well as with Joseph Smith.

I did address your Pauline verses but you have not provided anything to refute except your insistence upon your own interpretations. You have not met the burden of proof.

Valerie Hudson has done interesting work on polygamy as an Abrahamic test, which is given as an analogy in D&C 132. However, she uses it in the sense that we will not be required to be tested for eternity anymore than Abraham is going to be required to sacrifice his son for eternity.

Am I correct in assuming that you are trying to explain Joseph being sealed to already married women? Don't you think it is problematic to start with the premise men can have relations with multiple spouses and remain virtuous but a woman cannot?

[Hannah Rebekah]

Let me spell it out:

All of Joseph's polygamist marriages (sealings) were virtuous whether there was sex or not. Polygamy IMO could be a catch all label that describes different types of marriages....all virtuous.

The exact nature of all of his marriages are not known nor the mechanism in the gospel that may have made them different in practice if any.

There seems to be an element of an Abrahamic test with Joseph and a test of the natural man in the early Church with the 'virgins."

There is no proof one way or the other that the men these 'virgins' were attached to did or did not have other wives that bore them children...polygamist wives or first wives. Nor how many 'virgins' one was attached to is not spelled out.

We do know that in the early Church it seemed the "virgins" were part of the early gospel and it seems that this practice was perverted or misunderstood, changed or done away with.

[juliann]

Easy.....the celibacy quotes fit in my mind with the misunderstood polyandrous marriages.

The problem is not in misunderstanding it is that almost nothing is understood. We don't know exactly what happened or why, Joseph apparently didn't leave behind that kind of information. What happens if your theories are wrong and DNA proves Joseph did have children from a polyandrous wife?

[Hannah Rebekah]

I did address your Pauline verses but you have not provided anything to refute except your insistence upon your own interpretations. You have not met the burden of proof.

Valerie Hudson has done interesting work on polygamy as an Abrahamic test, which is given as an analogy in D&C 132. However, she uses it in the sense that we will not be required to be tested for eternity anymore than Abraham is going to be required to sacrifice his son for eternity.

Am I correct in assuming that you are trying to explain Joseph being sealed to already married women? Don't you think it is problematic to start with the premise men can have relations with multiple spouses and remain virtuous but a woman cannot?

I believe in exactly what Joseph taught:

[juliann]

There seems to be an element of an Abrahamic test with Joseph and a test of the natural man in the early Church with the 'virgins."

There is no proof one way or the other that the men these 'virgins' were attached to did or did not have other wives that bore them children...polygamist wives or first wives. Nor how many 'virgins' one was attached to is not spelled out.

We do know that in the early Church it seemed the "virgins" were part of the early gospel and it seems that this practice was perverted or misunderstood, changed or done away with.

This is kind of confusing. Since this is all highly speculative and theoretical I think it would be easier to just state the theory instead of trying to use ancient writings that are harder to explain than the theory itself. There are others here who have had more formal graduate training in NT than I have and you are going to get the same concern about the manner in which you are picking and choosing from noncanonical texts as well as mixing and matching scholarship from differing schools of thought as if they agree.

[Hannah Rebekah]

The problem is not in misunderstanding it is that almost nothing is understood. We don't know exactly what happened or why, Joseph apparently didn't leave behind that kind of information. What happens if your theories are wrong and DNA proves Joseph did have children from a polyandrous wife?

Point taken. Until DNA proves otherwise it is very plausible that some of his marriages were non-sexual for whatever reason. Or it's also plausible that he did have sexual relations with all. Like it was said....maybe they were all sexual relationships but they would still be virtuous no matter what.

[juliann]

I believe in exactly what Joseph taught:

This isn't what Joseph taught. It is what someone else is teaching by quoting Joseph...but you haven't told us who that is or where we can find it.

[juliann]

Point taken. Until DNA proves otherwise it is very plausible that some of his marriages were non-sexual for whatever reason. Or it's also plausible that he did have sexual relations with all. Like it was said....maybe they were all sexual relationships but they would still be virtuous no matter what.

I absolutely agree.

[Hannah Rebekah]

This is kind of confusing. Since this is all highly speculative and theoretical I think it would be easier to just state the theory instead of trying to use ancient writings that are harder to explain than the theory itself. There are others here who have had more formal graduate training in NT than I have and you are going to get the same concern about the manner in which you are picking and choosing from noncanonical texts as well as mixing and matching scholarship from differing schools of thought as if they agree.

How many times have I stated that this was 'IMO' (IN MY OPINION). What is so hard to understand how my opinion (theory) came about through these scattered fragments and writing. I'm not trying to claim or explain it....only looking for a conversation.

And I'm not claiming anything about matching scholarship from differing schools of thought nor have I claimed anything....only that it was an interesting topic and there, IMO (note the IMO) seems to be some parallels to restored polygamy. Let me say it again....IMO. Is my opinion written in stone....no....and I'm open to other view points.

That's great that others have more formal graduate training in NT and early Church history and I would love to get their views on this topic. Let's see what LDS scholar, Barry Bickmore has to say on this topic again:

Restoring the Ancient Church: Joseph Smith and Early Christianity

The Temple

http://www.fairlds.o...ap06.html#en165

Polygamy and the Mystery of Marriage We discussed above the fact that Christian marriage was referred to by Paul as "a great mystery" in itself, which also symbolized the union of Christ and the Church. Accordingly, Justin Martyr not only defended the polygamy of Old Testament figures, but referred to it as a "mystery" as well:

"And this one fall of David, in the matter of Uriah's wife, proves, sirs," I said, "that the patriarchs had many wives, not to commit fornication, but that a certain dispensation and all mysteries might be accomplished by them; since, if it were allowable to take any wife, or as many wives as one chooses, and how he chooses, which the men of your nation do over all the earth, wherever they sojourn, or wherever they have been sent, taking women under the name of marriage, much more would David have been permitted to do this."¹⁶⁵

Although the evidence is far from conclusive, a form of plural marriage may have been practiced by some of the Apostles and prophets in the early Church. The following passage from the Didache speaks of prophets who "work unto the mystery of the church," which "mystery" we have already seen was marriage--and possibly plural marriage.

And every prophet, proved true, working unto the mystery of the Church in the world, yet not teaching others to do what he himself doeth, shall not be judged among you, for with God he hath his judgment; for so did also the ancient prophets."¹⁶⁶

Jean Dani?lou links this mystery to the type of "spiritual marriages" that groups like the Marcosians practiced:

The expression 'cosmic mystery of the Church' seems to stand in opposition to a 'heavenly mystery of the church'. This heavenly mystery is the celestial marriage of Christ to the Church, which also finds its expression in this world. The allusion in this passage would therefore seem to be to those spiritual unions which existed in Jewish Christianity between prophet-Apostles and a sister. Hermas also appears to allude to this custom (Sim. IX, 10:6-11:, while a similar reference may underlie I Cor. 7:36ff. The custom endured in the institution of Virgins. The relation of these unions to their heavenly ideal is explicitly stated by the Gnostics: 'Some of them prepare a nuptial couch and perform a sort of mystic rite (mystagogia) . . . affirming that what is performed by them is a spiritual marriage after the likeness of the unions . . . above' (Adv. haer. I, 21:3).<a href="http://www.fairlds.org/Restoring_the_Ancient_Church/chap06.html#en167">¹⁶⁷

And although Dani?lou sees no connection here with plural marriage, it is evident that this "mystery" was something that the "ancient prophets" practiced, but which was forbidden for ordinary Christians. Considering Paul's prohibition against plural marriage for bishops and deacons, it may well have been polygamy.

[Hannah Rebekah]

This isn't what Joseph taught. It is what someone else is teaching by quoting Joseph...but you haven't told us who that is or where we can find it.

Sorry....I believe most of it came from "Rough Stone Rolling" and I'm not sure if there are footnotes in that book. I will have to look it up as it was sent to me.

[Hannah Rebekah]

This isn't what Joseph taught. It is what someone else is teaching by quoting Joseph...but you haven't told us who that is or where we can find it.

Do you think you can do something about your accusing and condescending tone?

[Hannah Rebekah]

Joseph Smith, Rough Stone Rolling

by Richard Bushman (LDS scholar)

(pages 441-446, there are footnotes)

[blackstrap]

The concept of spiritual wives vs sexual wives seems to have been lost quite quickly . Of the 29 +/- men who married more than one wife during Josephs lifetime what portion lived a celibate lifestyle with the new wife?

[juliann]

Do you think you can do something about your accusing and condescending tone?

Probably just apologize if that is how it comes off. It really is necessary to use these texts in a manner that is supportable through scholarship. Otherwise we are just using circular reasoning that is not convincing at best and foolish at worst. I felt strongly enough about that to get graduate training and I have great affection for the early Christians so I have strong opinions. The section you are quoting from Bushman does not say anything about relations with wives so I am uncertain how this supports the celibate sealings.

I'm not trying to claim or explain it....only looking for a conversation.

But when people disagree with you you do need to be able to explain your thinking don't you? There can't be much of a conversation without that. But I will bow out.

[mfbukowski]

Mormonism fits in very nicely with the Catholic views about marriage of the Church and between a man and a woman as "a great mystery."

And we take it much farther. The Patriarchal order and the sealing of families becomes an integral part of exaltation for us where for Catholics, theosis is not linked at all to marriage.