The Early Christian Agapetae or Virgins; "The Cosmic "Mystery" of the Church"

[Hannah Rebekah]

Probably just apologize if that is how it comes off. It really is necessary to use these texts in a manner that is supportable through scholarship. Otherwise we are just using circular reasoning that is not convincing at best and foolish at worst. I felt strongly enough about that to get graduate training and I have great affection for the early Christians so I have strong opinions. The section you are quoting from Bushman does not say anything about relations with wives so I am uncertain how this supports the celibate sealings.

But when people disagree with you you do need to be able to explain your thinking don't you? There can't be much of a conversation without that. But I will bow out.

Ahhh....still disagreeable I see.....and it looks like you have your opinions as well....and it looks like we see things differently. I don't think anyone has to have graduate training to be intrigued by subjects in history or to have an opinion and maybe I don't have convincing reasoning in your opinion but I didn't know you were the one who set the rules here of what is acceptable. I too have strong opinions and if you read the OP you will see that this thread was on more than just the 'virgins' but also on polygamy, Joseph Smith and the Cosmic Mystery of the Church as well and not much is known on some of these subjects to be able to form a very intelligent opinion and that's okay....it's still intriguing to muse about and wonder what it's all about and how it all fits together. Maybe with your graduate training you might like to do some studying and see what you can come up with to enlighten us all since I seem to be foolish at worst....and explain your thinking with some real substance instead of just looking for things to disagree with.

[saemo]

And we take it much farther. The Patriarchal order and the sealing of families becomes an integral part of exaltation for us where for Catholics, theosis is not linked at all to marriage.

True, theosis is linked to Jesus Christ, not one's spouse.

[Hannah Rebekah]

And we take it much farther. The Patriarchal order and the sealing of families becomes an integral part of exaltation for us where for Catholics, theosis is not linked at all to marriage.

Thanks...so true, we do take it much farther and Bushman seems to bring that out more and even refutes the celibate angle connected with the institute of the 'virgins.'

I had read somewhere that the OT concubines (some of them at least, as there are different cultures of those) may have been connected to the idea of the institute of virgins and the 'cosmic mystery of the Church' and connected to the prophets of old. So little is known about the early traditions and what was behind them.

[mfbukowski]

True, theosis is linked to Jesus Christ, not one's spouse.

It's odd you don't get the connection with being married in Christ since He is the Bridegroom.

The unifying force of the Godhead is not "being" or "nature" or "substance"- it is love. And it is love which motivates the purpose of the mission of the Godhead- bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of man, ie: God's sons and daughters.

In essence, we are talking about "raising the kids"- us. The marriage of the Bridegroom becomes a central image for that mystery which unites us all and eventually brings about that immortality and eternal life. THAT is the "mystery"

The scriptures say that "God is love"; what that means from our perspective is precisely what it says- that the Godhead IS one through love. Love IS what makes the Godhead the Godhead. Three persons, one God(head), one love cementing three into one, just as love cements a man and a woman into one flesh. They are essentially a "family", held together not with being, not substance, but love.

The Godhead is a family of perfect parents and we as their children can become one with them through love. And it is through love that the generations are welded together.

[Ahab]

In essence, we are talking about "raising the kids"- us. The marriage of the Bridegroom becomes a central image for that mystery which unites us all and eventually brings about that immortality and eternal life. THAT is the "mystery"

... the Godhead IS one through love. Love IS what makes the Godhead the Godhead. Three persons, one God(head), one love cementing three into one, just as love cements a man and a woman into one flesh. They are essentially a "family", held together not with being, not substance, but love. The Godhead is a family of perfect parents and we as their children can become one with them through love. And it is through love that the generations are welded together.

Good points, and I'd like to build on these point as I add some more to our conversation about the "mystery".

To many Christians who are not LDS the problem is usually not in thinking they're not able to help "raise" all of us who are on this Earth now. Most are usually pretty eager to try to help "raise" the others of us, including their personal self, as servants and disciples of our Savior. Where most fall short is in thinking we can become exactly like our Father in heaven so that we can also create our own children with our own spouse (or spouses), just as he does to add even more to his family.

And you know what else? I think it's perfectly understandable that they can't see themselves as growing to that point, given the fact that there isn't a lot of specific details on all that involves, and the fact that there isn't a lot of detail on that issue kinda gives me the impression that we're supposed to focus on what it means to be good children of our Father in heaven before we concern ourselves with the more advanced or "adult" issues. After all, if we're not obedient children who do all that our Father does and wants us to do, as children, how can we expect to grow up to become like him, as an adult?

[saemo]

It's odd you don't get the connection with being married in Christ since He is the Bridegroom.

The unifying force of the Godhead is not "being" or "nature" or "substance"- it is love. And it is love which motivates the purpose of the mission of the Godhead- bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of man, ie: God's sons and daughters.

In essence, we are talking about "raising the kids"- us. The marriage of the Bridegroom becomes a central image for that mystery which unites us all and eventually brings about that immortality and eternal life. THAT is the "mystery"

The scriptures say that "God is love"; what that means from our perspective is precisely what it says- that the Godhead IS one through love. Love IS what makes the Godhead the Godhead. Three persons, one God(head), one love cementing three into one, just as love cements a man and a woman into one flesh. They are essentially a "family", held together not with being, not substance, but love.

The Godhead is a family of perfect parents and we as their children can become one with them through love. And it is through love that the generations are welded together.

Interesting that you view yourself as a god, already.

I also think you believe the the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are married to each other.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Brovo...Hannah Rebekah

Well researched.

[mfbukowski]

Interesting that you view yourself as a god, already.

I can't imagine where you got that. I am one of his sons who can grow up and become like my Father.

And no, the Godhead is not "married" to one another any more than I am literally married to the person Jesus.

Now we get to deal with Catholic fundamentalists. That's a twist. You are the guys with all the mysteries, and symbols, but this you have to take literally because I said it.

That figures.

[Hannah Rebekah]

The concept of spiritual wives vs sexual wives seems to have been lost quite quickly . Of the 29 +/- men who married more than one wife during Josephs lifetime what portion lived a celibate lifestyle with the new wife?

I don

[Hannah Rebekah]

Brovo...Hannah Rebekah

Well researched.

Hey PaPa,

Don't know about "well researched" but thanks anyway. I would love your input.

HR

[Ahab]

(When looking at verses 61 through 63 through the lens of

[Hannah Rebekah]

True, theosis is linked to Jesus Christ, not one's spouse.

To Mormons it is both.

[Hannah Rebekah]

Hannah,

Most of your thoughts seem to mirror most of my thoughts, but it's still just speculation even though I think we both have good intentions in wanting to understand the truth on this issue.

For the time being I'm content with knowing that while it's okay and even good in some situations to have more than one wife, right now I'm supposed to have only one wife, and since I already have one, rather than getting much more into this, which would make me more than just a little uncomfortable because it's almost as if I'm trying to imagine how it might be possible and good to get myself another wife or concubine or girlfriend who may become my concubine or wife in all of eternity, I'd rather just wait until the Lord sees fit to tell me how to take unto myself another wife, if he ever does.

<smile>

Okay....point taken. I am only looking back not to now or the future myself.

Thank goodness for the insights of the Book of Mormon on this topic that states that unless commanded by the Lord we are to have only one spouse. And I don't think that will change unless it comes through the Prophet in the way it did with Joseph Smith. I totally agree with the Manifesto that ended polygamy. And I too am not comfortable with this concept in my own life. There would have to be some real soul searching if this practice was to ever be instituted again....long soul searching. So for now we don't have to bother ourselves with that. Just not condemn it and try to understand what went on before in a healthy way the best we can. And have faith. Too many LDS don't want to know what it is that Joseph was doing....I think it scares them about him as a prophet. Not me....I on the other hand want to understand as much as I can and have faith that later we shall have a total understanding if we are honest in heart.

[kamenraider]

The JST of the passage in 1Cor. 7 shows that it's talking about men who are engaged to be married being called as missionaries, and what they should do:

JST 1Cor. 7:29-38

29 But I speak unto you who are called unto the ministry. For this I say, brethren, the time that remaineth is but short, that ye shall be sent forth unto the ministry. Even they who have wives, shall be as though they had none; for ye are called and chosen to do the Lord