Can Apostates Produce Valuable LDS Scholarship?

[LifeOnaPlate]

Val Avery (ex'd and now deceased)

She was excommunicated?

[Vance]

Deborah seems to think my face looks like Al Gore.

My sympathies!!

Perhaps you could get that fixed.

It is a shame that you can't be as handsome as me, or my twin brother. See my avatar for varification.

[ttribe]

My sympathies!!

Perhaps you could get that fixed.

It is a shame that you can't be as handsome as me, or my twin brother. See my avatar for varification.

Tell me about it.

[Calm]

I was walking thru the BYU Bookstore today and saw all sorts of books there. Dan Vogel, Will Bagley, Todd Compton, Richard Bushman, Terryl Givens, Jan Shipps, many Signature imprints, etc. Didn't see Lucy's Book, but I think it's out of print. I doubt it is at DB for the same reason, if not because they have a crappy selection generally anyway from the standpoint of scholarly studies.

In the DB bookstores I've been in lately, they've really cut down on their product and even online it seems very limited.

[thesometimesaint]

Valentinus;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avraham_Gileadi

According to Margaret Toscano, whose husband was among the September Six and who would also later be excommunicated, Gileadi's "books interpreting Mormon scripture challenged the exclusive right of leaders to define doctrine."[4] Unlike his counterparts in the group, however, Gileadi came back to the Church and was rebaptized in 1996.[5][6]

[the narrator]

I was walking thru the BYU Bookstore today and saw all sorts of books there. Dan Vogel, Will Bagley, Todd Compton, Richard Bushman, Terryl Givens, Jan Shipps, many Signature imprints, etc. Didn't see Lucy's Book, but I think it's out of print. I doubt it is at DB for the same reason, if not because they have a crappy selection generally anyway from the standpoint of scholarly studies.

Last fall I was at the Church History Library and was surprised to see Vogel's (IMO methodologically flawed) Making of a Prophet on the recommended readings shelf.

[the narrator]

Lavina is an incredible writer. I may be biased, but her documentations found in the Mormon Alliance's Case Reports with Janice Merrill Allred appear to be quite accurate. I have heard very little negative criticism on its behalf.

Janice Allred did a great deal of work in compiling her book "God the Mother and Other Theological Essays".

Val Avery (ex'd and now deceased) and Linda King Newell did a fantastic job with "Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith".

Avraham Gileadi did an amazing job with his works on the book of Isaiah. BTW, does anyone know exactly why he was excommunicated?

FYI. A collection of interview with most of the September 6 (minus Gileadi) plus Margaret Toscano, Janice Allred, and Tom Murphy will be coming shortly from Greg Kofford Books.

Also, because of her editing work, Lavina Fielding Anderson has perhaps contributed more to Mormon scholarship from the sidelines than anyone else I know.

[LifeOnaPlate]

PS- Glenn Beck books are crud.

[LifeOnaPlate]

In the DB bookstores I've been in lately, they've really cut down on their product and even online it seems very limited.

What are you talkin about? They have really great little wooden signs for your house and women's clothing and cardboard books for kids aplenty!

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

PS- Glenn Beck books are crud.

PS- no one asked for your opinion.

[USU78]

Lavina is an incredible writer. I may be biased, but her documentations found in the Mormon Alliance's Case Reports with Janice Merrill Allred appear to be quite accurate. I have heard very little negative criticism on its behalf.

Back in another life, I was recruited by Toscano to become associated with the Mormon Alliance, which was pitched to me as an apologetic defense association in the nature of the Anti-Discrimination League. Is original purpose was almost immediately pitched in favor of the "Abuse by Bishops and Stake Presidents" allegations. Something you must understand about their methodology, which has been pointed out time and again, indeed with such frequency that your assertion that there has been "very little negative criticism" is highly suspect, is that:

Church Court participants are, according to the Handbook of Instructions, prohibited from discussing the proceedings outside the proceedings. There are no longer any announcements over the pulpit, and only those who are in "need to know" are told. This being the case, at very best the stories that were gathered are grossly one-sided. Now, it may be that many of the case studies are accurate, but from a methodological standpoint, it is simply terrible scholarship to assume statements made by one side to an alleged controversy will be fair and accurate. Indeed, it is more than arguable that those who are on the "receiving end" of Church discipline will necessarily feel put upon and abused. Doesn't make it so, however.

Treat carefully through those tulies. There be mudholes.

[Argos]

Of course, I wouldn't exactly call Deseret Book an "august institution" either. It's a bookstore. It carries all sorts of questionable stuff . . . like anything of a non-fiction genre penned by Glenn Beck.

Warning for a gratuitous politcal slam. [No, whether you think it is true is immaterial]

[LifeOnaPlate]

PS- no one asked for your opinion.

I thought this was America, man, where I can share my opinion without waiting for an invitation or permission, man. I thought this was America! The Founding Fathers would be ashamed at your blatant disregard of our founding principles.

[Lightbearer]

On another, now-closed thread, Lightbearer made the following comment:

I have no idea whether this was tongue-in-cheek or not, but I thought it might warrant a thread of its own: can apostates, those who have either left the Church or have been excommunicated, produce good and valuable scholarship relevant to Mormonism?

Well I am quite flattered that my intemperate comment has made it through two and possibly three threads! I must say that the comment was not tongue in cheek. By apostate I did not mean non-member (mark that CeeBoo) I meant apostate, as in traitor, turncoat, one who renounces their faith... because as I have observed they generally have an axe to grind and they are going to waste and wear out their lives to undermine the faith if possible.

I realize this is very intemperate language. But I am sorry I just do not trust those who have turned against the Church. Mr. Quinn was one of the September Six... he was not excommunicated for homosexuality, it was for opposition to the Church and apostasy at least that is my understanding.

If someone is an avowed enemy, why would I look upon their "scholarship" with anything other than suspection? Perhaps there are some who have left the Church who do great scholarship, but when it comes to the Church I doubt they can bury their feelings and be "objective" enough for me to consider their works of value to me.

[Argos]

I thought this was America, man, where I can share my opinion without waiting for an invitation or permission, man. I thought this was America! The Founding Fathers would be ashamed at your blatant disregard of our founding principles.

Way to recover, LoaP. But really folks, please leave Glenn Beck out of it. He's a lightning rod. No personal politics - meaning your personal opinion of political topics or personalities of which GB is certainly one.

This is the second warning. Next time posters will be banned from topic or the topic will be closed depending on how bad it is.

Argos

[Obiwan]

Cleary NOT!!!!

Their ability to produce "good" and "valuable" scholarship completely vanishes the second they leave the LDS Church!

Period!

Peace,

Ceeboo

Ceeboo.... Even though you may have been being sarcastic, the fact of the matter is that this is not something LDS believe.

If they aren't anti-mormon and are objective still, then sure they can produce good or mostly good scholarship. But, anti-mormons don't at all.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Way to recover, LoaP. But really folks, please leave Glenn Beck out of it. He's a lightning rod. No personal politics - meaning your personal opinion of political topics or personalities of which GB is certainly one.

This is the second warning. Next time posters will be banned from topic or the topic will be closed depending on how bad it is.

Argos

He wins this time around, only because I am muzzeled. Carry on.

[Argos]

Avraham Gileadi did an amazing job with his works on the book of Isaiah. BTW, does anyone know exactly why he was excommunicated?

Yes, ony: The people (priesthood leaders) involved with his excommunication, Bro. Gileadi, and those that Bro. Gilieadi may have told the details to.

No one else on this message board that may know (trickled down from any of these sources) is permitted to discuss it publically here.

[Argos]

He wins this time around, only because I am muzzeled. Carry on.

You can have fun at it via PM, but (perhaps, unfortunately)only you two will benefit from it.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

You can have fun at it via PM, but (perhaps, unfortunately)only you two will benefit from it.

Were is the fin in that. No worries. It really is not that important.

[zeezrom]

Ceeboo:

I don't know if you were being tongue in cheek here or not. I certainly hope so.

But IMNTBHO apostates can produce good and valuable insight into Mormonism. The trouble comes in in determining what is of value and what is not.

True believers and apologists can also produce good and valuable insight into Mormonism. The trouble comes in determining what is of value and what is not.

[Damien the Leper]

She was excommunicated?

Yes. She was a friends professor at Northern Arizona University and my friend was informed of the excommunication.

[Uncle Dale]

Lavina may not be a member of record, but she remains active from what I understand. And yes, much of her work has been great.

I haven't left Hawaii for a few years -- but last time I was

at Temple Square the little bookshop in the Church Museum was

featuring 100 copies of the Lucy book, stacked right at the

entry area, with a big promotional sign.

Back on the shelves over by the postcards were three or four

copies of the "other" womens' book by apostates Newell & Avery.

It seems that the powers-that-be figured Lucy would sell better

to the Gentile curiosity-seekers visiting the shop, than Emma.

Those tourists in tank-tops shelling out their cash did not

appear to be members -- so perhaps a little "apostate leeway"

was OK at the time.

UD

[Damien the Leper]

Yes, ony: The people (priesthood leaders) involved with his excommunication, Bro. Gileadi, and those that Bro. Gilieadi may have told the details to.

No one else on this message board that may know (trickled down from any of these sources) is permitted to discuss it publically here.

This was helpful.

[USU78]

This was helpful.

I think you fail to appreciate the continental dimensions of the divide between discussing the bona fides of those who make their Church Court proceedings public and those who, like Gileadi, don't.

The latter's proceedings and his rebaptism are his own business to share or not as he chooses.

Since nobody hereabouts knows anything about Avraham's life before, during or after, it's sheerest speculation for anybody to offer opinion on what happened with him.

Accordingly, it was actually quite helpful for our mods to tell us to lay off Gileadi, while permitting, for example, conversations about others of the "September Six" et al. who made personal matters press matters.

USU "Doesn't understand why anybody would not get this" 78