1840s oppression of Mormons in Illinois

[Calm]

This is an outgrowth of the now-locked "MMM and Expositor" thread.

Analytics left the following message on my profile, probably because he was unable to post it on the thread:

How about it? Was Joseph Smith to blame for the oppression perpetrated on his people because he made bad political decisions?

In my view, the above reasoning reminds me of the hypothetical husband who beats his wife, then blames her for making him mad because she objected to his verbal abuse.

There is an assumption that the quality of a decision is based on its results...a rather pragmatic approach, but it is troubled by at least two issues that I see:

1) A decision may be morally right, even extremely noble, yet considered "bad" by this type of assumption/reasoning because the results of that decision are tragic. Why did Lincoln make such "bad political decisions" that resulted in not only in his assassination, but also the death of over 1/2 million Americans? Were Native American leaders to blame for the oppression of their people when they made "bad decisions" (which they must have been doing because of the oppression of their people after all since good leaders with good decisions can navigate tough waters....gets to be somewhat circular in reasoning---Joseph Smith made bad political decision that resulted in the oppression of his people....how do we know he made bad political decisions? because his people were oppressed.)

2) Since generally a decision is not made in a vacuum, it would problematic to attribute that much influence to a particular decision or set of decisions without an indepth analysis/comparison of similar situations. If those are not available, it does not justify making that 'leap of faith' assuming a direct cause and effect of primary significance.

[Calm]

But as a final word, Mormons aren

[Analytics]

There is an assumption that the quality of a decision is based on its results...a rather pragmatic approach, but it is troubled by at least two issues that I see:

1) A decision may be morally right, even extremely noble, yet considered "bad" by this type of assumption/reasoning because the results of that decision are tragic. Why did Lincoln make such "bad political decisions" that resulted in not only in his assassination, but also the death of over 1/2 million Americans?...

Let

[Analytics]

By your "Words of Wisdom", it would have been wiser for Martin Luther King to have stayed out of the public political forum since he was perceived as a religious leader...definitely more diplomatic. And your point is proven by the oppression the civil rights movement suffered and his assassination.

History has since vindicated the Civil Rights Movement. It has not vindicated Joseph Smith

[Analytics]

What I find tragic is that they have to do so, it would be better if the public was wise enough to allow for full expression and practice of one's religious (or nonreligous) beliefs in the public forum if one desires to do so. It was a shame on the nation that Kennedy's Catholicism was an issue for many Americans (can you imagine what it would have been like if he had been a priest?) It is a shame that it is likely at this point in time that if a presidential politician were to declare s/he was an atheist, that s/he would likely be rejected as a worthy candidate for the office solely for that reason by many Americans.

Well said; I totally agree.

[Calm]

History has since vindicated the Civil Rights Movement. It has not vindicated Joseph Smith

[Deborah]

History has since vindicated the Civil Rights Movement. It has not vindicated Joseph Smith

[Analytics]

It has not vindicated it how?

Since much of his political work was for the purpose of protecting the Saints, I would say it was vindicated by the evidence that the Saints needed protecting.

One could claim that the deaths of the Chinese citizens protesting for freedom in Tiananmen Square were tragic because they must have died for the wrong cause since their political agenda has not been vindicated by history.

I have no doubt that the protection of the Saints was part of his ultimate political goal. However, the way he went about it was to build a militarized theocratic city-state that wasn

[Analytics]

Really? The saints were left alone for a little longer after the deaths of Joseph and Hyrum, because the mobs thought the church would die out as a result. They were left alone long enough to do a great deal of temple work, which was a great strength to the saints on the trek west. Brigham Young and others had time to organize the companies to go west. And in the west they established a great city that became the "Crossroads of the West" and from which the church has been able to operate throughout the world. It sounds like to me everything fell into place the way it was supposed to be.

Perhaps, but the Saints didn't find safety until they ceased gathering their converts into a concentrated city-state and modified their values to be compatible with those of mainstream America.

Maybe things are how they are supposed to be, but they would surely be different if Joseph Smith had the sensibilities of the modern Church.

[LeSellers]

History has since vindicated the Civil Rights Movement. It has not vindicated Joseph Smith

[USU78]

I have no doubt that the protection of the Saints was part of his ultimate political goal. However, the way he went about it was to build a militarized theocratic city-state that wasn

[USU78]

Perhaps, but the Saints didn't find safety until they ceased gathering their converts into a concentrated city-state and modified their values to be compatible with those of mainstream America.

Maybe things are how they are supposed to be, but they would surely be different if Joseph Smith had the sensibilities of the modern Church.

Presentism, A. Different times require different responses.

[Analytics]

History is written by the victors. Your view, as I understand it, is that we need to wait for history to vindicate the cause for which a religious leader should be allowed to become involved in a political issue

Sorry, I don't see the logic of your position, since it seems to require time travel, a technology we have yet to master.

You dramatically misunderstand my position. All I said was that it

[LeSellers]

All I said was that it

[USU78]

If the best you can do is play the guilt by association card, may I suggest that it might be more effective you if try to be subtle about it?

Well, let's expand on it then, shall we? Here are the words you chose:

militarized theocratic city-state that wasn

[Analytics]

The question remains unaddressed, though, regarding who is to decide what the "right cause" and what the "wrong cause" are. Your earlier assertion that historical vindication is the criterion is now undermined by your new one. I know that consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, but it usually takes more than a few hours for such inconsistencies to manifest, so I'm still a bit perplexed.

Right is right and wrong is wrong. Anybody can have their opinions, but anybody's opinion can be wrong. I happen to think that MLK was in fact right, but the fact that I think so and that history agrees with me doesn't make it so.

But that it's a bad idea for LDS leaders to do so. Again, a material inconsistency.

You can

[Vance]

Jesus must not have been a wise prophet (or insert some other title here), because He provoked the Jewish and Roman leadership to kill him.

That clears up some things.

Edited to add,

MLK must not have been a wise political leader because he provoked racists to kill him.

[staccato]

This is an outgrowth of the now-locked "MMM and Expositor" thread.

Analytics left the following message on my profile, probably because he was unable to post it on the thread:

How about it? Was Joseph Smith to blame for the oppression perpetrated on his people because he made bad political decisions?

In my view, the above reasoning reminds me of the hypothetical husband who beats his wife, then blames her for making him mad because she objected to his verbal abuse.

Not all of it, but certainly some of it. Joseph set himself and his followers apart/above the rest of the world, all right down to crowning himself King of the world, and then went about making himself exempt from the established rules and laws of order. His efforts to not play by the rules raised eyebrows and made others consider him to be a threat. It should not surprise anyone when others balked at his methods and made attempts to ensure he stayed within acceptable confines of order.

[Analytics]

Well, let's expand on it then, shall we...

If you honestly believe that version of history, doing so is your prerogative. I

[LeSellers]

Joseph set himself ... apart/above the rest of the world, all right down to crowning himself King of the world,...

CFR on "King of the world".

Lehi

[ttribe]

CFR on "King of the world".

Lehi

Not to mention the fact that the "crowning" being referred to wasn't a public proclamation. I hardly think it had anything to do with the assassination of JS.

[staccato]

William Clayton Journal, 11 April 1844

Andrew F. Ehat, "'It Seems Like Heaven Began on Earth': Joseph Smith and the Constitution of the Kingdom of God," BYU Studies, 20:3:267

Thursday, April 11.... Afterwards in the Council. We had a glorious interview. Pres. J. was voted our P[rophet]. P[riest]. & K[ing]. with loud Hosannas...

William Clayton Journal, 1 January 1845

Ehat, "Constitution of the Kingdom," BYU Studies, 20:3:268

Reflections. Jan. 1st 1845

...The organization of the Kingdom of God on 11 March last is one important event. This organization was called the Council of Fifty or Kingdom of God, and was titled by revelation as follows, 'Verily thus saith the Lord, this is the name by which you shall be called, the Kingdom of God and his Laws, with the Keys and power thereof, and judgment in the hands of his servants. Ahman Christ.' In this Council was the plan arranged for supporting Pres. Jos. Smith as a candidate for the presidency of the U.S. Prest Joseph was the standing chairman of the council and myself the Clerk. In this Council was also devised the plan of establishing an emigration to Texas, and plans laid for the exaltation of a standard and ensign of truth for the nations of the earth. In this council was the plan devised to restore the Ancients to the Knowledge of the truth and the restoration of Union and peace amongst ourselves. In this Council was Prest Joseph chosen our Prophet. Priest and King by Hosannas. In this Council was the principles of eternal truth rolled forth to the heavens without reserve and the hearts of the servants of God made to rejoice exceedingly...

William Marks Letter, 1853

Zion's Harbinger and Baneemy's Organ, 3 [July 1853]: 53

...I was also witness of the introduction (secretly) of a kingly form of government, in which Joseph suffered himself to be ordained a king, to reign over the house of Israel forever; which I could not conceive to be in accordance with the laws of the church, but I did not oppose this move, thinking it none of my business....

Revelation to John Taylor, 27 June 1882

John Taylor Papers, Church Archives, typescript from microfilm of original

...I raised up my servant, Joseph Smith, to introduce my Gospel, and to build up my Church, and established my Kingdom on the earth; ... He was called by me; and empowered by me, and sustained by me to introduce and establish my Church and Kingdom upon the earth; and to be a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator to my Church and Kingdom, and to be a King and Ruler over Israel...

Franklin D. Richards Journal, 4 February 1885

D. Michael Quinn, "The Council of Fifty and Its Members, 1844 to 1945," BYU Studies 20:2:163

At 8 p.m. attended Council at Endowment House where we had prayers consecrated oil, and Prest. [John] Taylor was anointed K[ing]. P[riest]. R[uler]. of C[hurch]. Z[ion]. & K[ingdom]...

[Deborah]

Perhaps, but the Saints didn't find safety until they ceased gathering their converts into a concentrated city-state and modified their values to be compatible with those of mainstream America.

So you are saying that no one with religious beliefs different from the mainstream should practice those beliefs because then others will be excused to persecute, jail and murder? It sounds like that's what you are saying.

[ttribe]

William Clayton Journal, 11 April 1844

Andrew F. Ehat, "'It Seems Like Heaven Began on Earth': Joseph Smith and the Constitution of the Kingdom of God," BYU Studies, 20:3:267

Thursday, April 11.... Afterwards in the Council. We had a glorious interview. Pres. J. was voted our P[rophet]. P[riest]. & K[ing]. with loud Hosannas...

William Clayton Journal, 1 January 1845

Ehat, "Constitution of the Kingdom," BYU Studies, 20:3:268

Reflections. Jan. 1st 1845

...The organization of the Kingdom of God on 11 March last is one important event. This organization was called the Council of Fifty or Kingdom of God, and was titled by revelation as follows, 'Verily thus saith the Lord, this is the name by which you shall be called, the Kingdom of God and his Laws, with the Keys and power thereof, and judgment in the hands of his servants. Ahman Christ.' In this Council was the plan arranged for supporting Pres. Jos. Smith as a candidate for the presidency of the U.S. Prest Joseph was the standing chairman of the council and myself the Clerk. In this Council was also devised the plan of establishing an emigration to Texas, and plans laid for the exaltation of a standard and ensign of truth for the nations of the earth. In this council was the plan devised to restore the Ancients to the Knowledge of the truth and the restoration of Union and peace amongst ourselves. In this Council was Prest Joseph chosen our Prophet. Priest and King by Hosannas. In this Council was the principles of eternal truth rolled forth to the heavens without reserve and the hearts of the servants of God made to rejoice exceedingly...

William Marks Letter, 1853

Zion's Harbinger and Baneemy's Organ, 3 [July 1853]: 53

...I was also witness of the introduction (secretly) of a kingly form of government, in which Joseph suffered himself to be ordained a king, to reign over the house of Israel forever; which I could not conceive to be in accordance with the laws of the church, but I did not oppose this move, thinking it none of my business....

Revelation to John Taylor, 27 June 1882

John Taylor Papers, Church Archives, typescript from microfilm of original

...I raised up my servant, Joseph Smith, to introduce my Gospel, and to build up my Church, and established my Kingdom on the earth; ... He was called by me; and empowered by me, and sustained by me to introduce and establish my Church and Kingdom upon the earth; and to be a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator to my Church and Kingdom, and to be a King and Ruler over Israel...

Franklin D. Richards Journal, 4 February 1885

D. Michael Quinn, "The Council of Fifty and Its Members, 1844 to 1945," BYU Studies 20:2:163

At 8 p.m. attended Council at Endowment House where we had prayers consecrated oil, and Prest. [John] Taylor was anointed K[ing]. P[riest]. R[uler]. of C[hurch]. Z[ion]. & K[ingdom]...

Seems you missed the point of Lehi's CFR. We all know about the Council of Fifty, and we also know what JS was, and was not, ordained to.

[Scott Lloyd]

Perhaps, but the Saints didn't find safety until they ceased gathering their converts into a concentrated city-state and modified their values to be compatible with those of mainstream America.

Maybe things are how they are supposed to be, but they would surely be different if Joseph Smith had the sensibilities of the modern Church.

They would be different in that the Church, without a concentrated physical gathering during the first 70 years of its history, would never have been strong enough to survive with its core doctrines intact, let alone have the global reach that it does today.

Ask any of today's Church leaders with "the sensibilities of the modern Church" whether they view the physical gathering of the 1800s to have been a mistake. I'm confident you will get an emphatic "no."