1840s oppression of Mormons in Illinois

[Analytics]

So you are saying that no one with religious beliefs different from the mainstream should practice those beliefs because then others will be excused to persecute, jail and murder? It sounds like that's what you are saying. [emphasis added]

I absolutely and positively am not saying that. I

[USU78]

If you honestly believe that version of history, doing so is your prerogative.

I most certainly do.

I

[Analytics]

So you are saying that no one with religious beliefs different from the mainstream should practice those beliefs because then others will be excused to persecute, jail and murder? It sounds like that's what you are saying.

As an aside, this makes me wonder what life is going to look like during the Millennium for people like me. Will we be forced to conform to the will of the Celestial dictator? If we don

[Vance]

As an aside, this makes me wonder what life is going to look like during the Millennium for people like me. Will we be forced to conform to the will of the Celestial dictator? If we don

[Scott Lloyd]

What kind of people are you?

Are you the kind that won't survive the initial millennial destruction?

If you get through that part, you probably won't need to worry about the other stuff.

That thought occurred to me as well. The notion strikes me as odd that anyone present on earth during the Millennium would regard Jesus Christ as a "celestial dictator."

[Analytics]

"Without very good evidence" . . . you forgot to add that to your statement.

Like I said, you may believe what you want.

Some would say that ensuring rights to trial by jury, writs of habeas corpus and other quaint relics of the Anglosaxon past is a good thing. Others might say that such things ought to be dispensed with in order to ensure convictions. Reasonable minds, I suppose. Sometimes people whom others are sure are guilty end up going free. Juries are funny people.

Using a writ of habeas corpus to avoid going to trial is a creative and ironic use of that right. Especially when you use it along with your personal army to take the matter to a judge that doesn

[Analytics]

What kind of people are you?

Are you the kind that won't survive the initial millennial destruction?

If you get through that part, you probably won't need to worry about the other stuff.

I hope you see my point. Your idea of heaven on earth is a place where God has killed everybody that doesn't agree with you. So much for tolerance.

[USU78]

Whenever I've cited specific things they've been totally ignored.

What "specific things" were those, pray?

[Vance]

Using a writ of habeas corpus to avoid going to trial is a creative and ironic use of that right.

I take it that you don't know what a "writ of habeas corpus" actually is.

Here is a clue.

"A writ of habeas corpus is a judicial mandate to a prison official ordering that an inmate be brought to the court so it can be determined whether or not that person is imprisoned lawfully and whether or not he should be released from custody. The petition must show that the court ordering the detention or imprisonment made a legal or factual error."

[Vance]

Your idea of heaven on earth is a place where God has killed everybody that doesn't agree with you. So much for tolerance.

Wow, talk about a strawman!!!

As opposed to YOUR idea that every victim is to be blamed for his own victimhood.

[Scott Lloyd]

When people say Joseph Smith was fighting for the safety of his people, I

[USU78]

Using a writ of habeas corpus to avoid going to trial is a creative and ironic use of that right.

Domestic courts shouldn't review the legitimacy of the charges underlying extradition attempts.

Writs of Habeas Corpus and other procedural mechanisms for challenging State action ought to be abolished.

Gotcha.

USU "Don't think I'd like an Analytics Utopia" 78

[Vance]

Domestic courts shouldn't review the legitimacy of the charges underlying extradition attempts.

Writs of Habeas Corpus and other procedural mechanisms for challenging State action ought to be abolished.

Gotcha.

USU "Don't think I'd like an Analytics Utopia" 78

An interesting idea coming from one who doesn't trust the actions of the millennial State.

[Analytics]

What "specific things" were those, pray?

If you want to know, feel free to review the conversations.

I take it that you don't know what a "writ of habeas corpus" actually is.

Here is a clue.

"A writ of habeas corpus is a judicial mandate to a prison official ordering that an inmate be brought to the court so it can be determined whether or not that person is imprisoned lawfully and whether or not he should be released from custody. The petition must show that the court ordering the detention or imprisonment made a legal or factual error."

That's precisely why I said Joseph Smith

[Vance]

He was being taken to a judge under a completely legal and bona fide warrant for his arrest.

Well maybe it wasn't such a thing (legal and bona fide warrant, I mean).

He was "under arrest" which is a form of imprisonment is it not?

So if you arrest a person and put them in the trunk of a car but not in prison, then a writ can't be issued?

Edited for clarity.

[Analytics]

Well maybe it wasn't such a thing (legal and bona fide warrant, I mean).

With the specific incident I

[USU78]

If you want to know, feel free to review the conversations.

Nice, A. I've been following both threads.

That's precisely why I said Joseph Smith

[Scott Lloyd]

Thanks. I got the feeling they were either being way too sensitive or just exagerating for dramatic effect.

I don't call someone a coward without a very good reason, even when I'm exaggerating for effect.

Ah well, Graham is fortunate. I'm the only one of the four of us he referred to by a real name (as opposed to a screen name), and I'm not litigious by nature.

[Deborah]

As an aside, this makes me wonder what life is going to look like during the Millennium for people like me. Will we be forced to conform to the will of the Celestial dictator? If we don

[LeSellers]

William Clayton Journal, 11 April 1844

Andrew F. Ehat, "'It Seems Like Heaven Began on Earth': Joseph Smith and the Constitution of the Kingdom of God," BYU Studies, 20:3:267

...

At 8 p.m. attended Council at Endowment House where we had prayers consecrated oil, and Prest. [John] Taylor was anointed K[ing]. P[riest]. R[uler]. of C[hurch]. Z[ion]. & K[ingdom]...

And what, exactly, does this have to do with the claim that Joseph Smith had himself crowned as "King of the World"?

Lehi

[Pahoran]

Not all of it, but certainly some of it. Joseph set himself and his followers apart/above the rest of the world, all right down to crowning himself King of the world,

CFR on "crowning himself."

and then went about making himself exempt from the established rules and laws of order.

CFR on that canard too.

His efforts to not play by the rules raised eyebrows and made others consider him to be a threat. It should not surprise anyone when others balked at his methods and made attempts to ensure he stayed within acceptable confines of order.

Yes, in the minds of some, the "acceptable confines" for Joseph Smith were the confines of a coffin.

And apparently, in the minds of some now living, their predecessors were right.

Regards,

Pahoran

Cool it down. ~Mods

[Pahoran]

Because this argument from "Analytics" continues from another thread -- perhaps you slept through it -- in which he claimed that Joseph was not murdered for his religious views but for his bad political decisions. That was the first shoe to drop. Now we have the second shoe dropping, in which the expulsion of the Saints from Illinois is triumphantly produced as evidence of the awfulness of Joseph's political decisions, and thus proof of the original claim.

Is that clear now?

Perhaps his problem is his inability to reconcile the position I

[Vance]

With the specific incident I

[Analytics]

Hi Pahoran,

You asked,

Straw man, is it?

The answer is yes. The only question that remains is why do you insist with arguing with me about what my position actually is? Why have you have latched onto this straw man like a pit bull? Could it be because you know my actual position is stronger than yours?

[Analytics]

Regarding habeas corpus, Magna Carta saith: "...no free man shall be taken or imprisoned or disseised or exiled or in any way destroyed except by the lawful judgment of their peers or by the law of the land."...

...JSJr was about to be "taken or imprisoned or disseised or exiled or in any way destroyed"...

No, he was being taken to stand trial so that the law of the land could decide whether or not he would be "in any way destroyed."

The key thing you are disregarding here is "by the lawful judgment of his peers and the law of the land." The law of the land didn't grant the Nauvoo municiple judge the authority to rescind the arrest warrent signed by the governor.

But for the sake of argument, let's say that it did. In that case, even though legal, it was a foolish move because from the outside perspective the Nauvoo judge was blatantly partial. By using his military to be taken to that judge, Joseph Smith played into the hands of the people who were trying to portray him as the theocratic dictator of a militarized city-state that wasn't subject to state law.

It may have saved Joseph's skin for a little while, but it did immense harm to the good-will that the Saints desperately needed in Illinois.