1840s oppression of Mormons in Illinois

[Scott Lloyd]

[*]High church leaders shouldn

[Scott Lloyd]

Hello Deborah and pcarthew,

The above indicates that you disagree with one of the initial premises which is fine. My question had to do with pahorans claim that the original paragraph contained circular logic. Just disagreeing with one of the premises doesn't make the initial claim circular logic.

The circularity is obvious: Joseph's people were victimized, therefore he must have been a bad mayor. Why was he a bad mayor? Because his people were victimized. Why were they victimized? Because he was a bad mayor. etc.

It's like asserting that a robbery victim was to blame because he brought it upon himself. Why? Because he wouldn't have been robbed if he hadn't brought it upon himself.

[USU78]

When someone call tell me Joseph was perfect, I will happily concede that he in no way had any part to play in the Saint's persecution. However, because we know he was indeed fallible, we should be discussing to what degree his humanity played a part. IMO, if our choices are somewhere on the continuum of large degree and lesser degree- Joseph exists on the "lesser" end of the scale.

Nicely put, my pidgie-eschewing Bruddah.

And we should remember that . . . no matter how good and kind and generous the Church and her leadership may be, it will never be enough for those who are determined to find fault.

And as for those who would advocate violence . . . there's no way to stop 'em from feeling that way.

All we can do is our very best to live our religion as best we can. The moral responsibility will then squarely remain in the faultfinder and the violent to the extent of their culpability which most definitely "exists on the 'large' end of the scale."

[Lamanite]

Nicely put, my pidgie-eschewing Bruddah.

And we should remember that . . . no matter how good and kind and generous the Church and her leadership may be, it will never be enough for those who are determined to find fault.

And as for those who would advocate violence . . . there's no way to stop 'em from feeling that way.

All we can do is our very best to live our religion as best we can. The moral responsibility will then squarely remain in the faultfinder and the violent to the extent of their culpability which most definitely "exists on the 'large' end of the scale."

I'm sure you would agree that there is absolutely no justification for the persecution of the Saints. Nor is there any justification for the brutal murder of the Prophet Joseph and his brother Hyrum.

There is no justification at all! Critics should say as much and then shut their mouths. Anything in addition to "there is no justification" is a display of their lack of character and evidence of their extreme bias. Historical context does nothing except condemn those responsible.

Big UP!

Lamanite

[David Bokovoy]

There's no question that the Prophet Joseph made some mistakes throughout his ministry. But I'm personally convinced that his political decisions were for the most part inspired by God. For Joseph, one could not separate religion from the political kingdom of God. I'm also convinced that the Prophet was murdered by conspiring men for political reasons. For those interested in this topic, I would highly recommend LeGrand L. Baker's book Murder of the Mormon Prophet: Political Prelude to the Death of Joseph Smith.

Unfortunately, it appears it is now out of print and has become a bit pricey:

Murder of the Mormon Prophet

By utilizing newspapers as a major background for interpreting Joseph's assassination, Baker documents the highly politically charged actions of the Anti-Mormon party of Hancock Country that led to the Prophet's death.

[David Bokovoy]

Also, I don't have the reference at my fingertips, but Brigham Young declared that every state in the Union participated in the conspiracy to murder the Prophet.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

This is a truly brilliant example of anti-Mormon circular logic at its finest. The Mormons weren't persecuted for their religion; they were driven out of Nauvoo and Illinois because of the political stupidity of Joseph Smith. How do we know that Joseph's political decisions were stupid? Because they resulted in the expulsion of the Mormons! And thus, the case is proven.

And this is a representative sample of the quality of analysis that Analytics brings to LDS history.

Regards,

Pahoran

Hahaha, I got a kick out of that. I guess (I give him the botd) that we all make mistakes at some time. Even the smart people do that from time to time.

[Analytics]

Not just "somewhat," I'd say it's total speculation on your part. And ill-founded, at that.

If prophets and apostles do not belong to the National Guard, it's because they tend to be older and retired from their former occupations.

If it would be a conflict of interest for an apostle, it would be the same for, say, a stake president

[USU78]

When Joseph Smith originally arrived in Illinois, he had they sympathy and good will of the people. Because of a long string of specific decisions he made, that good will turned into bitter hostility. His specific decisions and their specific responses to his decisions are well-documented and make the cause-and-effect relationship clear.

Blame the victim.

Nice.

[Analytics]

Blame the victim.

Nice.

The victims of Joseph Smith's bad decisions were the Saints. I'm not blaming them.

[Vance]

I would say it

[Analytics]

For Joseph, one could not separate religion from the political kingdom of God.

I think that

[Analytics]

So, Joseph was unwise for moving the saints to Nauvoo because the people in the vicinity were murderous mobbers?

And the murderous mobbers are NOT to be blamed because they were just "provoked" into being their true selves?

Am I getting this right?

Not at all.

[Lightbearer]

I think the new "tone" that the Church has is a direct result of the persecutions of the past. I do not think Joseph was a "bad Mayor" or a fool or a "flawed man" (at least no more flawed than the rest of us and especially his enemies both then and now.) Perhaps the Prophet was too trusting, too forgiving, to loving of his enemies... I do not think those are very bad flaws, yet it may have made him a very vulnerable politician (both then and now) and an easy mark for the likes of John C. Bennett and other such like characters. But I think the Prophet new the results of his actions, I do not think they were mistakes any more than I think what Jesus Christ did to enrage the leaders of the Jews was a mistake. The prophet had to be a martyr for the new dispensation, he had to seal his testimony with his blood. That is what I really think and believe, I have stood in Carthage jail and felt the spirit of the Lord testify to my soul that these things had to be so that his testimony would be in force and his blood cries from the ground for God to avenge him. I believe the Civil War was a punishment to a country that said of religious persecution: "Your cause is just but I (the President of the United States) can do nothing for you..." This country has been scourged, and there remains another scourge if we as a nation do not repent. Of all these things I am certain, no amount of revisionist history or concessions to enemies of this cause can change the facts. They may excuse the killing of the prophet and the driving of the Saints from the boundaries of the nation as a political blunder, but it was religious bigotry plain and simple, and because the prophet also wielded political power he became even a greater target for the secret combinations that are built up in this nation. I believe that because of the laws and the communications ability of the Saints, that what was done to the Church in the 1800's is not possible to be done today. But know this I also believe that their rests a spirit in the hearts of the people today that thirsts for the blood of the Saints almost to the point of drunkenness and now try to fight God through words and laws and political correctness that insists upon silencing anyone who has a political opinion that is influenced by religious beliefs. I think Satan is at the heart of it, and that is how he tries to encompass the Saints and destroy them (spiritually not physically) and it will get worse and worse. I think the prophet knew this was coming and that is why he made the following statement:

(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith Section Six 1843-44, p.392)

"Not Always Wise to Expose Evil" Thursday, a.m.--June 27, 1844.--

Said Joseph, "Our lives have already become jeopardized by revealing the wicked and bloodthirsty purposes of our enemies; and for the future we must cease to do so. All we have said about them is truth, but it is not always wise to relate all the truth. Even Jesus, the Son of God, had to refrain from doing so, and had to restrain His feelings many times for the safety of Himself and His followers, and had to conceal the righteous purposes of His heart in relation to many things pertaining to His Father's kingdom. When still a boy He had all the intelligence necessary to enable Him to rule and govern the kingdom of the Jews, and could reason with the wisest and most profound doctors of law and divinity, and make their theories and practice to appear like folly compared with the wisdom He possessed; but He was a boy only, and lacked physical strength even to defend His own person; and was subject to cold, to hunger and to death. So it is with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints; we have the revelation of Jesus, and the knowledge within us is sufficient to organize a righteous government upon the earth, and to give universal peace to all mankind, if they would receive it, but we lack the physical strength, as did our Savior when a child, to defend our principles, and we have a necessity to be afflicted, persecuted and smitten, and to bear it patiently until Jacob is of age, then he will take care of himself."

I await the day when "Jacob is of age" and then the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our God and His Christ.

[Scott Lloyd]

You are really grasping at things to take issue with, aren

[Scott Lloyd]

Not at all.

I think Vance has summed up your arguments pretty well.

[Sleeper Cell]

I think the Mormon Church is a wise institution. I

[ttribe]

Analytics is welcome to reply here to my post in the thread that got shut down:

All I

[Analytics]

I think Vance has summed up your arguments pretty well.

At this point, it wouldn't be gratuitous to ask if your reading comprehension is really that low, or if you are just being disingenuous.

[ttribe]

At this point, it wouldn't be gratuitous to ask if your reading comprehension is really that low, or if you are just being disingenuous.

And thus, the end of the thread began.

[Scott Lloyd]

I am struck by the number of fundamental civil rights the Church and its leaders must give up in order to avoid offending its critics.

Yeah. If you're religious or belong to a religious faith group, keep your mouth shut about public issues, and you won't get hurt. Constitution and the Bill of Rights be damned.

[Scott Lloyd]

At this point, it wouldn't be gratuitous to ask if your reading comprehension is really that low, or if you are just being disingenuous.

False dichotomy.

[Analytics]

Analytics is welcome to reply here to my post in the thread that got shut down:

First, I have no idea how you could possibly measure the "more than..." portion of your last statement here. Second, given the nature and amount of attention he'd garnered over the previous 15 years leading up to his assassination, do you really think these same political decisions would have yielded the same result, absent those previous 15 years of issues?

LOL. I was in the process of responding to these questions when I got blocked.

First, the way I measure

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Not at all.

Then by all means please enlighten us on what you really meant, as I thought that was exactly what you were saying.

[Sleeper Cell]

High church leaders shouldn