hagoth7 Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 btw, someone in this thread asked for something specific in which a Prophet has been wrong and I think I can provide one example that is, I hope, uncontroversial: Joseph Smith was clearly wrong when he said we believed in being subject to kings.I'm Canadian. I don't have a problem with that [abbreviated] statement.In it's broader AoF context, and considering the passage Joseph was citing, it basically means the saints at least aren't anarchists - and/or at best support the idea of secular gov't.
wenglund Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 What standard do Mormons use to determine whether it's permissible to contradict one of their prophets?It is the same standard we use to determine whether to believe and agree with our prophets: Moroni 10 and Alma 32.Thanks, -Wade Englund-
the narrator Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 btw, someone in this thread asked for something specific in which a Prophet has been wrong and I think I can provide one example that is, I hope, uncontroversial: Joseph Smith was clearly wrong when he said we believed in being subject to kings.well duh, a Prophet is never wrong about anything. Leaders are just often wrong when they think they are being prophets. Whole lists could be made of Church leaders being wrong about things--including lists by leaders about other leaders.Thus the OP should really ask when it is wrong to contradict or disobey a church leader.
Uncle Dale Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 ...all things Mayan...A brief derailing of this thread ----> to feed your hobby:http://olivercowdery.com/texts/1822-pg2.htmhttp://olivercowdery.com/texts/1822-pg3.htmAs you were...UD
elguanteloko Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 I'm Canadian. I don't have a problem with that [abbreviated] statement.In it's broader AoF context, and considering the passage Joseph was citing, it basically means the saints at least aren't anarchists - and/or at best support the idea of secular gov't.LOL Sir, I am an anarchist and you just offended me. I really don't see how you can come up with that conclusion. the 12th AoF says that we believe in being subject to kings, presidents, etc, etc. Kings where hardly secular.
Hamba Tuhan Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 I really don't see how you can come up with that conclusion. the 12th AoF says that we believe in being subject to kings, presidents, etc, etc. Kings where hardly secular.I'm confused. I live in a constitional monarchy. That means I'm subect to a king/queen.
elguanteloko Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 well duh, a Prophet is never wrong about anything. Leaders are just often wrong when they think they are being prophets. Whole lists could be made of Church leaders being wrong about things--including lists by leaders about other leaders.Thus the OP should really ask when it is wrong to contradict or disobey a church leader.I like your proposed question. what is your take on it?
elguanteloko Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 I'm confused. I live in a constitional monarchy. That means I'm subect to a king/queen.hello! I don't understand what seems confusing from what I said.
Uncle Dale Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 ...we believe in being subject to kings...Dunno about Mormons -- but we Reorganized LDS were taught that there should be no more kings in the Land of Promise.No need to obey Pedro I, Emperor of Brazil orEmpress Carlota of Mexico and her husband Maximilian.Back in the "old world" we were still taught to obey the descendants of Victoria, etc.Not sure how all of that worked out with Saints in places like British Honduras, Jamaica, or Beaver Island.UD.
the narrator Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 I like your proposed question. what is your take on it?when they are wrong.
the narrator Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 always?i guess it depends on what is meant by contradict and disobey.
elguanteloko Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 i guess it depends on what is meant by contradict and disobey.let's forget about 'contradict' (no one really cares about this one that much) and focus on 'disobey', which is a bit more serious. let's define it to be the "To refuse or fail to obey (an order or rule)" as it came out in thefreedictionary.comwhen is it right to disobey our church leaders?
rockslider Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 let's forget about 'contradict' (no one really cares about this one that much) and focus on 'disobey', which is a bit more serious. let's define it to be the "To refuse or fail to obey (an order or rule)" as it came out in thefreedictionary.comwhen is it right to disobey our church leaders?Are we talking about "order or rules" like:"Read the Book of Mormon"Or a bit more fuzzy like;"Lengthen your Stride"Or is it more like adhering to the items that would allow one to answer yes to the various TR questions?I think, as UD somewhat pointed out ... There was a day that a Prophet would tell a Priesthood holder
William Schryver Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 Instead they just ask us to fight against the rights of womens (ERA) , blacks (priesthood), and homosexuals (Prop 8 )Less blood, but just as cruel.You forgot the "intellectuals" (September 6).
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 Instead they just ask us to fight against the rights of womens (ERA) , blacks (priesthood), and homosexuals (Prop 8 )Less blood, but just as cruel.Nothing like a total distortion of the facts. I would delve into this more but at the risk of it all turning political I wont.
CV75 Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 What standard do Mormons use to determine whether it's permissible to contradict one of their prophets?There is no standard but what is common to all: human nature. And who would bother asking permission, anyway?
thesometimesaint Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 It is always "Permissible" to contradict/disobey the Prophet. However when we do so, we take the responsibility for the consequences upon ourselves.
Ahab Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 Current prophets are probably wrong about some point of doctrine or another.You might want to let us know what you are referring to as a "prophet", because a true prophet is never wrong, because God is not wrong, and God speaks to us through prophets.I have a feeling that maybe you are referring to people who other people refer to as prophets, but just so you know, a person who is a prophet is never wrong because that person is speaking for God.
Lightbearer Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 Current prophets are probably wrong about some point of doctrine or another. We know this because past LDS prophets have been wrong about the laws of God, and we have no reason to believe that current prophets are any less fallible. So why is disobeying a prophet such a big deal? Is it worse to say that President Monson is wrong about the sinfulness of same-sex relations than that President Young was wrong about the sinfulness of interracial relations? At least one prominent Mormon apologist has said that Young was wrong, but none have said that Monson is wrong. Why? What standard do Mormons use to determine whether it's permissible to contradict one of their prophets?When is it okay to contradict or disobey God? If you can answer that question, then you will know the answer to your question. The fact is we can always choose to disobey, for it is given to us to choose. But remember that with that choice come consequences that are a direct result of our acts: (Alma 3:26-27) "And in one year were thousands and tens of thousands of souls sent to the eternal world, that they might reap their rewards according to their works, whether they were good or whether they were bad, to reap eternal happiness or eternal misery, according to the spirit which they listed to obey, whether it be a good spirit or a bad one. For every man receiveth wages of him whom he listeth to obey, and this according to the words of the spirit of prophecy; therefore let it be according to the truth..."
semlogo Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 If anyone claiming to be a prophet asks me to partake in the slaughter of innocent men, women, and children that's when I ask to stop the bus and get let off.Agreed.
Ahab Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 If anyone claiming to be a prophet asks me to partake in the slaughter of innocent men, women, and children that's when I ask to stop the bus and get let off.What if God, through a prophet, helps you to understand how those people are NOT "innocent" ?Do you suppose some of the Israelites thought some of the Hittites and Amorites were "innocent" when they were told by God, through Joshua, to utterly wipe them all out of their land so they could go in and possess it?Your idea of innocent may not be the same as God's idea of innocent, so be careful about who you call innocent.
semlogo Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 What if God, through a prophet, helps you to understand how those people are NOT "innocent" ?Do you suppose some of the Israelites thought some of the Hittites and Amorites were "innocent" when they were told by God, through Joshua, to utterly wipe them all out of their land so they could go in and possess it?Your idea of innocent may not be the same as God's idea of innocent, so be careful about who you call innocent.All children are innocent."Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.""Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me, and whoever receives me, receives not me but him who sent me."
Jason Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 If I draw a line and say "I will never do x, even if God commands me to" God will likely command me to do just that tomorrow. It's just a bad idea. The only time it is okay to disobey or contradict a prophet is when he's not a prophet.
semlogo Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 If I draw a line and say "I will never do x, even if God commands me to" God will likely command me to do just that tomorrow. It's just a bad idea. The only time it is okay to disobey or contradict a prophet is when he's not a prophet.I will never murder children, no matter who tells me to.Somehow, I don't think I'm in any danger in saying that.
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