Ahab Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 I will never murder children, no matter who tells me to.Somehow, I don't think I'm in any danger in saying that.Those who murder don't consider it to be murder when they kill someone, including a child, semlogo.They substitute another word or idea for what really is murder and then that makes it okay in their mind, unless they are so far gone that they will actually commit murder while realizing it is murder, but that isn't usually how it works.
Jason Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 I will never murder children, no matter who tells me to.Somehow, I don't think I'm in any danger in saying that.Well, murder is a morally-charged word, and it might indeed be safe to say that God will never command a murder. It may not be safe to say "I will never kill children", however.Certainly Abraham never said this.
Ahab Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 All children are innocent.All of us are children, with parents. There isn't a single one of us who isn't a child of someone else.
Vance Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 Instead they just ask us to fight against the rights of womens (ERA) , blacks (priesthood), and homosexuals (Prop 8 )Less blood, but just as cruel.When should anyone ever promote group rights above individual rights?Enough with the thread jack, as you were.
semlogo Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 Those who murder don't consider it to be murder when they kill someone, including a child, semlogo.They substitute another word or idea for what really is murder and then that makes it okay in their mind, unless they are so far gone that they will actually commit murder while realizing it is murder, but that isn't usually how it works.These people are known as fundamentalist wackos, not to put too fine a point on it.
semlogo Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 Well, murder is a morally-charged word, and it might indeed be safe to say that God will never command a murder. It may not be safe to say "I will never kill children", however.Certainly Abraham never said this.I feel equally safe in saying I well never kill a child. Or harm a child in any way. It doesn't matter if God Himself comes down and face to face tells me to do it. I would assume, and rightly so, that I had either gone nuts or that it was someone other than God telling me to do it.Anyone who can't say the same should re-evaluate their own mental health. And whether or not they have any business being in proximity to children, or living in civilized society. "But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea."
semlogo Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 All of us are children, with parents. There isn't a single one of us who isn't a child of someone else.True. Which is why I am not in favor of the killing of adults, either.
Jason Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 I feel equally safe in saying I well never kill a child. Or harm a child in any way. It doesn't matter if God Himself comes down and face to face tells me to do it.Then you would have failed Abraham's test.
semlogo Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 Then you would have failed Abraham's test.Absolutely.
Jason Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 I wonder if Brigham Young ever said, "if God ever asks me to take a second wife, I'm out of here!"Or "if God ever tells me to deny blacks the priesthood then I know that I'm imagining the whole thing."
Ahab Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 True. Which is why I am not in favor of the killing of adults, either. If I ever felt and believed God wanted me to kill someone... anyone...I wouldn't be in favor of killing that person, either, but I would do it anyway once I felt absolutely sure that God really wanted that person to leave this world of mortals.Remember, people who die don't vanish completely, as if they no longer continue to exist. They just go somewhere else, and if God doesn't want them to remain here with us mortals there must be some other place where God wants them to be.
semlogo Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 If I ever felt and believed God wanted me to kill someone... anyone...I wouldn't be in favor of killing that person, either, but I would do it anyway once I felt absolutely sure that God really wanted that person to leave this world of mortals.Remember, people who die don't vanish completely, as if they no longer continue to exist. They just go somewhere else, and if God doesn't want them to remain here with us mortals there must be some other place where God wants them to be.Why would God want you to kill one of His children? I'm not asking why He might think that someone was better off dead, but why would He ask YOU to do it for Him? If you ever received such a message, it would be far, far more likely that you'd gone off the deep end than that God was giving you orders to kill.
Jason Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 Why would God want you to kill one of His children? I'm not asking why He might think that someone was better off dead, but why would He ask YOU to do it for Him? If you ever received such a message, it would be far, far more likely that you'd gone off the deep end than that God was giving you orders to kill.See Nephi v. Laban.
semlogo Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 See Nephi v. Laban.Do you have any examples more recent than 2,600 years ago?
Ahab Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 Why would God want you to kill one of His children? I'm not asking why He might think that someone was better off dead, but why would He ask YOU to do it for Him? The "why" isn't the central issue here, in my perspective, because as long as God is the one who is telling me to kill someone, then he has a good reason for telling someone to do that, WHOEVER he is talking to.If you ever received such a message, it would be far, far more likely that you'd gone off the deep end than that God was giving you orders to kill.Perhaps, but I think the key is to live by our faith both in and from God, like Abraham did.Imagine what he thought when God told him to kill his son.
Obiwan Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 When is it okay to contradict or disobey a prophet?When such goes against scripture, and the Holy Spirit, other revelations, and good common sense.
Spurven Ten Sing Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 Interesting thread. I would tell God to do his own dirty work. After all, he has none of the problems I would have to deal with after slaying another human, like hiding the body, or what not.
thesometimesaint Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 Spurven Ten Sing:Why hide the body if the purpose is to make an example of the disobedient?
Spurven Ten Sing Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 All the more reason God should take care of the matter. Think of how creative he can be.
cinepro Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 What standard do Mormons use to determine whether it's permissible to contradict one of their prophets?As far as official Church publications go, it is never OK to not follow the Prophet.Here is how it is presented on the Church website: We can always trust the living prophets. Their teachings reflect the will of the Lord, who declared: "What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same" (D&C 1:38).Our greatest safety lies in strictly following the word of the Lord given through His prophets, particularly the current President of the Church. The Lord warns that those who ignore the words of the living prophets will fall (see D&C 1:14
thesometimesaint Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 cinepro:I'll somewhat disagree here. We always have the right to choose to disobey. We don't have the right to choose the consequences of that disobeying.
cinepro Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 cinepro:I'll somewhat disagree here. We always have the right to choose to disobey. We don't have the right to choose the consequences of that disobeying.I didn't say we don't have the "right" to choose to disobey. I just said the Church never teaches that it's ever OK to do so. The important question from the OP is this:What standard do Mormons use to determine whether it's permissible to contradict one of their prophets? It wasn't a question of "rights" or abilities. It was a question of permission (presumably, permission from the Church and God). And the answer is that the Church has never acknowledged that it might be permissible (i.e. preferable or even admirable) to contradict the Prophet, and has published many statements to the contrary.
semlogo Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 The "why" isn't the central issue here, in my perspective, because as long as God is the one who is telling me to kill someone, then he has a good reason for telling someone to do that, WHOEVER he is talking to.Perhaps, but I think the key is to live by our faith both in and from God, like Abraham did.Imagine what he thought when God told him to kill his son.How many mentally ill persons have killed someone over the years because they were convinced God told them to?
Jason Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 Do you have any examples more recent than 2,600 years ago?"Morm. 9: 9 9 For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and in him there is no variableness neither shadow of changing?"
thesometimesaint Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 cinepro:Going public should be the furthest thing from any LDS mind. I was thinking more along the lines of disagreeing with some obscure point of discussion or philosophy. I believe we are all entitled to our opinion on a great many subjects. I believe as members of the Church it is our obligation to think through ALL things and seek confirmation by God for ourselves. I further believe it is opposite of Church counsel to posit that once the prophet has spoken the thinking has been done.
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