Laban's decapitation and blood loss

[Lamanite]

Text:

19 And after I had smitten off his head with his own sword, I took the garments of Laban and put them upon mine own body; yea, even every whit; and I did gird on his armor about my loins.

The use of his clothes after decapitation can be problematic. The only working theory I have is if Nephi laid Laban out with the head at a decline and then made a single decapitating slice.

Any other thoughts?

Big UP!

Lamanite

[Darth J]

Well, are some remarks about decapitation, with the points most relevant to Nephi underlined by me:

The problem with beheading.

Beheading requires a skilled headsman if it is to be at all humane and not infrequently, several blows were required to sever the head. It took three blows to remove Mary Queen of Scot's head at Fotheringhay Castle in 1587. In Britain, beheadings were carried out by the

[BCSpace]

The use of his clothes after decapitation can be problematic. The only working theory I have is if Nephi laid Laban out with the head at a decline and then made a single decapitating slice.

According to 1 Nephi 4:7, Laban was drunk and already laid out on the ground so I think it very likely Nephi thought it all out ahead (pun intended) of time.

[Darth J]

Well, are some remarks about decapitation, with the points most relevant to Nephi underlined by me:

We have no way of knowing one way or the other how good of a swordsman Nephi would have been. It may have been one cut and Laban was done, like Anakin Skywalker doing Count Dooku in Revenge of the Sith. However, Anakin was using two lightsabers (not a metal sword) and it was pretend, anyway. It is probably more likely, although I don't know how we would know, that Nephi would have hacked a few times until Laban's head was off. But whichever, there would have been blood all over the place.

We also don't know, though, whether Laban was wearing dark clothing, and this happened at night---we don't know how much light there would have been from torches or whatever. So we don't know if these conditions may have made it less obvious that there was blood. And we don't know whether Laban's armor would have covered up some or most or all (or none) of the blood.

I'm not saying you should just assume all the conditions were perfect so it wasn't obvious that there was blood all over Laban's clothes that other people would have seen. I'm saying there isn't enough information to know how much of a problem this may have been.

I have to correct myself. Nephi said that he had never shed human blood (I haven't read The Book of Mormon in English in like 15 years, so I have to think about how to say it).

So it is less likely that he was a great swordsman. And while he says that the Holy Spirit told him to off Laban, Nephi still did not seem to be very excited about doing it. So his nervousness/hesitancy (even with spiritual reassurance) may have affected how clean this whole thing would have been (i.e., just a fast, one cut "There can be only one!" decapitating move).

I agree with BC Space that Nephi probably came up with some kind of plan. But, "I was guided by the Spirit, not knowing in anticipation that which I would do" (something like that). So Nephi may or may not have had the whole thing all figured out in detail before Laban's dirt nap.

[Ray Callis Hatton III]

As opposed to being merely the art of medieval executioners, was it not, in his day, especially in his religious and priestly life, a very common art, all about severing neck arteries, making religious use of the blood, and well enough to do so cleanly? Of course, I mean in the slaughter and sacrifice of animals, but still, not ignorant of how to succeed, but merely never do to a human being. Beheading seemed to be achieved by like-cultured non-soldiers, such as an Israelite shepherd boy could strike off a giant Philistine's head, having likewise no renown as a soldier.

But perhaps it was as some propose that the scriptures doesn't say the clothes Nephi puts on after were still on Laban at the time he dispatched him, he only says that he put them on after dispatching him.

[Darth J]

As opposed to being merely the art of medieval executioners, was it not, in his day, especially in his religious and priestly life, a very common art, all about severing neck arteries, making religious use of the blood, and well enough to do so cleanly? Of course, I mean in the slaughter and sacrifice of animals? Be heading was a task easy enough for an Israelite shepherd boy to strike a giant Philistine's head off, having no renown as a soldier.

Yeah, but:

1. David had already killed a bear and a lion with his sling. Nephi says he had never killed anyone, and we have no facts one way or the other that Nephi had even picked up a sword before.

2. Cutting an animal's throat (we have no facts one way or the other if Nephi had ever done this before) isn't the same as cutting off a person's head.

3. Can't you let us enjoy the prospect of Nephi grabbing an unconscious drunk guy by the hair and repeatedly hacking at his neck, and the resulting bloodbath?

But perhaps it was as some propose that the scriptures doesn't say the clothes Nephi puts on after were still on Laban at the time he dispatched him and then removed after that, it only says that he put them on after dispatching him.

That's a good point.

EDIT: Whoops, you meant when David cut off Goliath's head. But the Bible doesn't say anything about how difficult or easy this was, just that it was done.

Therefore David ran, and stood upon the Philistine, and took his sword, and drew it out of the sheath thereof, and slew him, and cut off his head therewith.

1 Samuel 17:51

[Ray Callis Hatton III]

1. David had already killed a bear and a lion with his sling. Nephi says he had never killed anyone, and we have no facts one way or the other that Nephi had even picked up a sword before.

2. Cutting an animal's throat (we have no facts one way or the other if Nephi had ever done this before) isn't the same as cutting off a person's head.

3. Can't you let us enjoy the prospect of Nephi grabbing an unconscious drunk guy by the hair and repeatedly hacking at his neck, and the resulting bloodbath?

1. Nephi seemed to be a skilled hunter, skilled enough to be depended on, by himself, to provide for his entire family. Which I assumed warranted him owning a rather higher quality bow than the others, being the last to finally break.

2. His father being a prophet, must have exposed Nephi to at least some thing of his craft or at least to feed himself or his own family, or to ensure the Patriarchal Priesthood had a successor, should it be in dire trouble if all but Nephi were to die, or if he knew he could not depend on Laman? I'm just certain that he would of had some idea of what kind of mess it was going to make, even if he had never done it, he would have at least seen it done. More likely than people of medieval times, in Nephi's day, the art of slaughtering was well practiced within just about every family, but then evolve into a society of tradesmen that focus on other arts and leaves such things to primarily ranchers and butchers. Where by even a hangman maybe unaware of the difficulty, being so removed from his day-to-day life.

3. I am enjoying the thought, but then spring a load of unexplored avenues which its even more enjoyable to imagine.

[handys003]

Text:

19 And after I had smitten off his head with his own sword, I took the garments of Laban and put them upon mine own body; yea, even every whit; and I did gird on his armor about my loins.

The use of his clothes after decapitation can be problematic. The only working theory I have is if Nephi laid Laban out with the head at a decline and then made a single decapitating slice.

Any other thoughts?

Big UP!

Lamanite

Well since it was the bronze age I doubt seriously the cut was clean. Especially as Darth indicated a first time kill Nephi nerves were probably shot needless to say the sight might have made him ill also (puke). However after recovering and dawning the armor. I can still see him moving around even if it was messy.

First- it was dark and nights were not well lighted except by torches, fires, etc... so it was dim and more than likely to pass unnoticed in the dark.

Second- Hebrew clothes for soldiers could have been dark in color. Red was prized by many armies, both in intimidation and covering up blood. A particular favorite of Spartans, and Romans. Blood would blend well and only look wet from maybe wine to which Labans clothes may have reeked of since he passed out drunk.

Third- since Laban wore armor the blood could be easily wiped off by Nephi's own clothes since he changed to disguise himself to obtain the plates.

Fourth- in the pics attached are the type of armor wear the Hebrews more than likely wore. Based on Greek such as Spartans or Corinthians style which influenced the area at the time. If you see the helmet and body armor could very easily cover up most blood.

All in all Dark, a drunken soldier reeking of wine along with sweat from the desert heat, and covered with a helmet of a royal guard. Guards already tired and not paying attention since it was peace time. Yeah I can see Nephi passing easily through town.

[Bikeemikey]

Well since it was the bronze age I doubt seriously the cut was clean. Especially as Darth indicated a first time kill Nephi nerves were probably shot needless to say the sight might have made him ill also (puke). However after recovering and dawning the armor. I can still see him moving around even if it was messy.

First- it was dark and nights were not well lighted except by torches, fires, etc... so it was dim and more than likely to pass unnoticed in the dark.

Second- Hebrew clothes for soldiers could have been dark in color. Red was prized by many armies, both in intimidation and covering up blood. A particular favorite of Spartans, and Romans. Blood would blend well and only look wet from maybe wine to which Labans clothes may have reeked of since he passed out drunk.

Third- since Laban wore armor the blood could be easily wiped off by Nephi's own clothes since he changed to disguise himself to obtain the plates.

Fourth- in the pics attached are the type of armor wear the Hebrews more than likely wore. Based on Greek such as Spartans or Corinthians style which influenced the area at the time. If you see the helmet and body armor could very easily cover up most blood.

All in all Dark, a drunken soldier reeking of wine along with sweat from the desert heat, and covered with a helmet of a royal guard. Guards already tired and not paying attention since it was peace time. Yeah I can see Nephi passing easily through town.

Nephi removed the sword before the angel told him to kill Laban. What was ge planning on doing?

Perhaps he was planning on impersonating Laban as soon as he found him and removed both clothin and armor and sword. If the guy was drunk and unconscious this is entirely plausible, especially as we can tell from amazing Mormon artwork that nephi was as strong as Conan the Barbarian. He could easily have manhandled an unconscious Laban.

He was prompted to kill him part way into a plan. Note the spirit did not tell hi

to impersonate Laban and get the plates. That he appears to have come up with on his own. It would stand to reason that nephi would have realized blood on the clothes would have compromised the success of his plan.

It is however a solid conclusion that if he did not remove the clothes from Laban prior to the beheading the would have been bloody. Thus does not preclude the success of nephis mission but I can see nephi cutting off labans head then thinking to himself, wow i really screwed the order of this one up. Now I have to wear nasty bloody clothes.

[Lightbearer]

Text:

19 And after I had smitten off his head with his own sword, I took the garments of Laban and put them upon mine own body; yea, even every whit; and I did gird on his armor about my loins.

The use of his clothes after decapitation can be problematic. The only working theory I have is if Nephi laid Laban out with the head at a decline and then made a single decapitating slice.

Any other thoughts?

Big UP!

Lamanite

This seemed puzzling to me when I first heard it as well. But I came up with an alternate idea than what is stated here. Did Laban only have one set of clothes? Or did the ancients never change clothes? It seems quite reasonable to me that after killing Laban he could have gotten clean clothing (that Laban was not at that time wearing) and also the armor and put this own. Another theory is that he may not have had his clothing on, I mean he was this drunken, (passed out) so he may not have been fully clothed. I mean it is hard to picture someone of his stature in the community drunken in full armor, especially at home. At least that is the possibilities that have occurred to me. Also as already mentioned it was at night, and lighting was poor, I mean torch light is not that revealing. Also if Laban was such a violent man, (he walked around in his armor while drinking with his buddies) it may not have been so unusual for him to be covered in blood (he could slay fifty) if he had such a reputation who would question a bloody appearance anyway?

[CV75]

The use of his clothes after decapitation can be problematic. The only working theory I have is if Nephi laid Laban out with the head at a decline and then made a single decapitating slice.

Having seen the behavior by many a drunk in real life, I've supposed that Laban, in a drunken state had removed his own garments. I've also thought that the event took place in the foyer or similar location of the house/property where other clothing and armor may have been laid out for Laban's use. It is probable that Nephi used a fairly minimal amount of Laban clothing and armor, only enough to feign the appearance of a drunken Laban.

I understand the term "smite off" may not exclusively mean total or even partial decapitation, or requiring the severance of the jugular. I can't find the reference right now; this has been more part of an explanation about the execution of Shiz. But enough of a chunk of the skull could have smitten off to result in death without a lot of external or profuse bleeding. There are many verbs followed by the word "off" that do not literally mean "complete removal."

[Brant Gardner]

Perhaps he was planning on impersonating Laban as soon as he found him and removed both clothin and armor and sword. If the guy was drunk and unconscious this is entirely plausible, especially as we can tell from amazing Mormon artwork that nephi was as strong as Conan the Barbarian. He could easily have manhandled an unconscious Laban.

I think that you bring up an important point. We assume that the order given in the text is precisely that in which the event occurred. However, Nephi was writing at least 38 years after the event (8 in the Old World, 30 in the New) and for very specific purposes (it is entirely possible that he was much more interested in telling the tale to parallel David and Goliath than to get the order correct). It wouldn't be surprising at all if the order of events were different.

[T-Shirt]

Text:

19 And after I had smitten off his head with his own sword, I took the garments of Laban and put them upon mine own body; yea, even every whit; and I did gird on his armor about my loins.

The use of his clothes after decapitation can be problematic. The only working theory I have is if Nephi laid Laban out with the head at a decline and then made a single decapitating slice.

Any other thoughts?

Big UP!

Lamanite

There isn't anything in that verse that indicates, exactly, when Nephi removed Laban's clothing, it only indicates when he put them on himself. He could have removed the clothing, then killed him and then "took the garments of Laban and put them upon [his] own body." At least that is the way I have always read it.

Best,

T-Shirt

[USU78]

Why is this a problem?

We have young David taking Goliath's head with Goliath's sword, then taking the armor and whatnot of Goliath and putting it on:

and we have young Nephi taking Laban's head with Laban's sword, then taking the armor and whatnot of Laban and putting it on.

Each is an act of conquest over a people in the person of its champion.

David and Nephi both establish rights to kingship through these acts.

There's no reason to be worrying about the order of events in the later story when it is plainly based upon and, IMNSHO, intentionally parallel to it . . . and is told for the same purpose.

Worrying about tunicstaining, headless Laban and pushupping, headless Shiz ignores the more important issues surrounding the tales told by these ancient folks and imposes on them a sensibility entirely foreign to their time and place of production.

[Benjamin McGuire]

Hmmmmm.....

[Jason]

I would note that Nephi described himself as "large in stature" and "having received much strength from the Lord".

The Freiberg depictions may not be all that far off.

[Lamanite]

It wouldn't hurt, Lamanite, to take a look here.

I loved your study Ben. I also found the parallel's very compelling. However, I'm primarily interested in the logistics of how this beheading was accomplished.

Big UP!

Lamanite

[Benjamin McGuire]

delete

[Lamanite]

I'm not sure I buy into the idea that Nephi stripped Laban naked prior to beheading him. Like I said, I think it's more plausible that in the moment he angled his body at a slight decline and hacked off his head, allowing the blood to pour downward.

Either way it would have been a mess. When I was 16 my cousin was shot by a .45 while we were at the Utah State Fair. I grabbed him and carried him 25yrds to safety. When they took him away I caught a glimpse of myself in a car window and realized I look liked the movie character "Carrie." I also couldn't calm down for a couple of hours. I've seen people stabbed in the upper and lower bodies and it's always messy, especially when it's in the face. Recently I was boxing and got an unintentional elbow right above my eyebrow, that thing bled like I had opened an artery.

My point is that wounds like this would have been very very very very very messy. It would take extraordinary circumstances for Nephi to lop off Laban's head and then don his clothing without any blood on his face or hands and then walk around and talk like Laban.

All things are possible for God and this scenario is miraculous indeed.

Big UP!

Lamanite

[BCSpace]

I agree with BC Space that Nephi probably came up with some kind of plan. But, "I was guided by the Spirit, not knowing in anticipation that which I would do" (something like that). So Nephi may or may not have had the whole thing all figured out in detail before Laban's dirt nap.

Yeah, the Spirit can guide our thoughts. For sure the Spirit was giving inspiration according to scripture.

[volgadon]

Decapitation is a mess. Blood stinks. So does vomit. So does lying in a gutter. I think it speaks volumes to Laban's character that Zoram did not consider that anything was out of the ordinary.

[Benjamin McGuire]

Hmmm, not sure why that post was deleted ....

Lamanite, for my take, you might want to start with my article here:

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/jbms/?vol=18&num=1&id=475

[Bikeemikey]

It says Nephi put the clothing on after the beheading.

If says nothing about whether he removed the clothing before he cut the head off. Unless Nephi was "slow of mind", in addition to being "large of stature", it is likely he removed the clothing first.

[T-Shirt]

I'm not sure I buy into the idea that Nephi stripped Laban naked prior to beheading him.

Why, isn't that what you would do? Isn't that the most logical thing to do? Wasn't Laban completely passed out?

Best,

T-Shirt

[Lamanite]

Why, isn't that what you would do? Isn't that the most logical thing to do? Wasn't Laban completely passed out?

Best,

T-Shirt

If I had time to premeditate, then yes. But if some guy stumbled out drunk and the Spirit told me to kill him, I would have just leaned him over and bled him out. But maybe the spirit gave specific instructions that are not listed.

Big UP!

Lamanite