Laban's decapitation and blood loss

[Bikeemikey]

Were I in that position, I would not have said "While he was drunk, I took off all his clothes and then chopped off the head of a naked guy", and I don't think anyone else would have either.

The realities of having to kill someone are not always what one would write in scripture, for the ages following to quote, I would think.

that is a very good insight.

[Lamanite]

I very much agree that the context in question does not lend it self to either the time nor emotional objectivity to really become analytical and extremely rational. The point of the story is also much deeper than the condition of the clothing nephi was wearing.

I am curious why the inclination to come down on the more problematic side of a scenario such as this when the scripture I question does not need us to. We are so used to having to accept unreasonable and non-rational conclusions for scriptural stories because they do require them. It seems that we are also inclined to opt for the lest rational conclusion even when it is not needed.

The false conclusion that can sometimes be mistakenly drawn from this is that when god Is involved the least rational reasonable solution is his preference. This is not a big issue when we are dealing with historical issues, but when dealing with current issues Nd we are the people making the decisions, this belief about the nature of gods intervention patten can lead people to abandon reasonable action with the mistaken belief that it is more likely to be gods will.

Inspiration and gods will do not require us to act contrary to reason. Though in the instances they do we should let inspiration lead the way. It is not however the case that in he absence of reason we see gods will.

That is my bigger point about this thread.

Viewing the problematic side of this event is natural for me because Nephi acted in a way that is inconsistent with similar experiences in my own life. Nephi's thoughts and actions were inconsistent with what I know to be reasonable responses to those circumstances. The narrative didn't ring true. Something was off.

This is where I insert faith. I'll generally massage the events into a paradigm that makes allowances for aberrations in the event and faithful explanations.

I don't know these things, I just believe them.

Big UP!

Lamanite

[Bikeemikey]

Viewing the problematic side of this event is natural for me because Nephi acted in a way that is inconsistent with similar experiences in my own life. Nephi's thoughts and actions were inconsistent with what I know to be reasonable responses to those circumstances. The narrative didn't ring true. Something was off.

This is where I insert faith. I'll generally massage the events into a paradigm that makes allowances for aberrations in the event and faithful explanations.

I don't know these things, I just believe them.

Big UP!

Lamanite

That I can both understand and respect.

[sunstoned]

This whole story is problematic for me on several levels. Fist, killing a man in cold blood while he is incapacitated is just wrong. I don

[Mighty Curelom]

This whole story is problematic for me on several levels. Fist, killing a man in cold blood while he is incapacitated is just wrong. I don

[sunstoned]

Right. The author should have had Nephi bonk Laban on the head with the butt of his sword to knock him out. Then he could have dragged the unconscious Laban into the bushes off-screen. Star-wipe to Nephi walking out of the bushes wearing Laban's clothes, looking back and forth while he adjusts his sleeves. That's much more plausible, and even more 70's sitcom than the way Joseph Smith originally wrote it (although just barely). You could even follow it up with Laman saying to Lemual "I need to speak to you in the kitchen."

No sitcom about it. It is called reality. Hack a guy

[thatjimguy]

Laban was not a good guy. He tried to kill Nephi and crew to get their stuff. He probably had blood on his garments a good bit that no one would think twice about seeing him bloody.

[handys003]

This whole story is problematic for me on several levels. Fist, killing a man in cold blood while he is incapacitated is just wrong. I don

[volgadon]

In any culture, in any time, it is just wrong.

Then you have obviously not read of Saul in the caves of Ein Gedi.

[LeSellers]

If someone is already dead, there is no arterial spurting, nor any other significant loss of blood.

That's the way I picture it: Laban is down for the count, Nephi is constrained by the Spirit to slay him. After the introspection, he knocks Laban in the head, killing him, and then he cuts off the head.

No blood, no problem with the stains.

Lehi

[USU78]

Then you have obviously not read of Saul in the caves of Ein Gedi.

Another excellent point, volga. And another great parallel between Nephi and David: David didn't want to kill Saul; Nephi didn't want to kill Laban.

David's compassion for a helpless foe caused him to spare him; Nephi's own heart is depicted as compelling him to do the same.

The point is that "He who ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of G-d."

I'm wondering if David's famous last words to Solomon are a good place to look for Nephi's intentionality in comparing himself with the Great King of Israel.

II Samuel 23:2-7 The Spirit of the Lord spake by me, and his word was in my tongue. The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, "He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God. And he shall be as the light of the morning, when the sun riseth, even a morning without clouds; as the tender grass springing out of the earth by clear shining after rain." Although my house be not so with God; yet he hath made with me an everlasting covenant, ordered in all things, and sure: for this is all my salvation, and all my desire, although he make it not to grow.

But the sons of Belial shall be all of them as thorns thrust away, because they cannot be taken with hands: But the man that shall touch them must be fenced with iron and the staff of a spear; and they shall be utterly burned with fire in the same place.

[mfbukowski]

No blood, no problem with the stains.

You're just no fun at all.

Here we're telling nice gory stories and you have to spoil it with common sense.

Cheesh.

[USU78]

Wait a minute . . . something just occurred to me: If we Mormon types are all so hung up on the shedding of blood, why doesn't the first incident of death in uniquely Mormon scripture say something about blood?

[Anijen]

deleted

[volgadon]

Another excellent point, volga. And another great parallel between Nephi and David: David didn't want to kill Saul; Nephi didn't want to kill Laban.

David's compassion for a helpless foe caused him to spare him; Nephi's own heart is depicted as compelling him to do the same.

The point is that "He who ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of G-d."

I'm wondering if David's famous last words to Solomon are a good place to look for Nephi's intentionality in comparing himself with the Great King of Israel.

I absolutely agree.

Note that David's objection to killing Saul is not because it is wrong to kill an incapacitated individual, but that it is wrong to kill this particular one, period. This due to David's respect for Saul's position as the representative of YHWH. Lese majeste which will be avenged by the anointer.

At any rate, here is evidence that in monarchial Judah at least killing an incapacitated individual was acceptable if said individual was determined to kill you.

[volgadon]

I think Laban was a blood thirty man and likely came home on occasion with blood on his clothing. Zoram wouldn't have questioned him for fear of his own life.

If a mobster comes home with blood and sick all over his clothing, how many of his assistants are going to be surprised?

I know that Laban was a high official, but in Jerusalem of Lehi's day there was not that great a difference between the two, as a search through Jeremiah and Ezekiel will show. See especially Ezekiel 8 with the angelic hit squad destroying those who employed similar means.

Laban's very own name is a (pardon the pun) dead give-away as to his character, his dealings with Lehi's sons reinforce that, as does Zoram taking Nephi's words to mean that Laban had a nighttime rendezvous outside the city walls with his fellow conspirators, also officials and officers.

So instead of this account not being thought out all the way through, Zoram's lack of surprise to a bloody Nephi rings true. At the very least it is a well crafted story.

[mfbukowski]

Wait a minute . . . something just occurred to me: If we Mormon types are all so hung up on the shedding of blood, why doesn't the first incident of death in uniquely Mormon scripture say something about blood?

Very good point!

[Cold Steel]

I agree that the order of events might not be the same as recorded. Nephi may have wanted to emphasize his abhorrence at taking a human life. And when you're writing on gold plates, you can't just hit the backspace if the sequence is amiss.

Also, many people who pass out after drinking throw up, or at least know that they may throw up and position themselves so they don't choke in the event they do. (Many dead people are found kneeling over toilets.) In either event, the body may have been positioned so that blood could have drained out.

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