A Strange Rationale for Infant Death . . .

[Nofear]

I'm sure there are several here who have heard of or even personally administered blessings for the sick wherein the individual was blessed to die. It seems to me, that in most cases, whether or not our spirit retains coupling to our physical body is not a choice. Yet, it is not inconceivable to me that the priesthood could be used to "bless" that individual with the choice.

[thesometimesaint]

Sometimes it is a choice.

[ERayR]

I'm sure there are several here who have heard of or even personally administered blessings for the sick wherein the individual was blessed to die. It seems to me, that in most cases, whether or not our spirit retains coupling to our physical body is not a choice. Yet, it is not inconceivable to me that the priesthood could be used to "bless" that individual with the choice.

My father who was 90 began(and had lived alone for 25 years) to occasionally fall. We discussed this with him and he agreed that he could no longer live alone. That day before he left with my brother he sat with us and told us what he wanted done with his possessions. Within a week he had died.

[mercyngrace]

It has been taught by church leaders(sorry in a hurry and don't have time to look it up)that babies have adult spirits.

Many NDO experiences relate having been given a choice to go or stay.

NDO?

Something like NDE, I gather. But what's the O for?

[Walden]

At the death bed of my 19yr old cousin, his father gave him a blessing, releasing him from this life. He passed a short time after.

Could this be considered "priesthood euthanasia"? As an ordinance?

No, I would consider it coincidence.

[Jason]

Regarding priesthood blessings in general...

It's difficult for me to imagine an omniscient, omnipotent deity waiting for a priesthood holder to pronounce a blessing before deciding whether to heal or take a person who is sick or dying. The same goes for healing requests in lay prayers or temple prayers. It seems bizarre to think that a god would actually change his mind concerning whether someone should be healed if the right person with the right credentials just asks him to. And if prayers and blessings cannot change the fate that God has already decided upon for a person, they are pointless. Their only value would be either placebo or comfort.

You are correct that the prayers do not change what blessings God has already decided. In no way do they compell God to change His mind.

However, they benefit both the giver and the receiver. The giver receives the opportunity to enact God's will through giving the blessings God wishes and to serve others with love. The receiver gains the knowledge of what God's will for him is, along with comfort. All parties gain an opportunity to exercise faith and feel the presence of the Spirit and the power of the priesthood.

They are not pointless.

I have often heard of priesthood blessings giving someone seriously ill the choice to die. It is not suicide when God presents you with the choice through his appointed servents.

[katherine the great]

Isn't the definition of "choosing not to stay" suicide?

You are way too intelligent to really believe this. I think you're just being contrary. Suicide is when one physically causes their own death. This is a matter of the spirit (in a body that is naturally near death) deciding to move on without interfering with the physical process. You must be bored cinepro. I think you should go put that great brain of your to some useful work.

[ERayR]

NDO?

Something like NDE, I gather. But what's the O for?

Typo. Thats what happens when my fingers and brain become disconnected. It happens sometimes. NDE it is.

[AntiCitizen]

No infant has the power to "choose" to die. The only thing that makes sense is to shift the blame away from God for the baby's death. By hiding behind some obscure nonsense about the infant making a "decision," Jones gets to shield himself against the painful reality that randomly bad things sometimes occur.

[katherine the great]

No infant has the power to "choose" to die. The only thing that makes sense is to shift the blame away from God for the baby's death. By hiding behind some obscure nonsense about the infant making a "decision," Jones gets to shield himself against the painful reality that randomly bad things sometimes occur.

Within LDS doctrine, it is a possibility. Of course no baby possesses reasoning skills. However, our doctrines teach that a fully mature spirit resides in every human body from birth, so whether or not that spirit has the ability to make that decision is really quite debatable. Normally I would agree with you, but in this case, I'm open to either possibility.

[ERayR]

No infant has the power to "choose" to die. The only thing that makes sense is to shift the blame away from God for the baby's death. By hiding behind some obscure nonsense about the infant making a "decision," Jones gets to shield himself against the painful reality that randomly bad things sometimes occur.

What Katherine says is accurate, it is a possibility in LDS theology.

Why do you think death is a bad thing? Most Christians that I know look on death as a release from the "travail" of mortality where one goes to an eternal peace with God, something to look forward to. Under this view the loss of association with the deceased is sad but certainly not a bad thing.

[katherine the great]

What Katherine says is accurate, it is a possibility in LDS theology.

Why do you think death is a bad thing? Most Christians that I know look on death as a release from the "travail" of mortality where one goes to an eternal peace with God, something to look forward to. Under this view the loss of association with the deceased is sad but certainly not a bad thing.

I think we all basically think that death is a bad thing--especially of a child. The last couple of generations are not at all used to death. Most of our ancestors lived in a world where death was common. It would have been very unusual for a person to grow up and have a family without ever having lost at least one (and usually many) person(s) who was very close to them. It was more a part of every day life, and we have lost that experience so we don't have the coping skills that our predecessors had. Modern medicine is an incredibly huge blessing, but it has resulted in us being very poorly prepared to suffer the loss of a child. I personally, will grieve until my death if it happens to me--in spite of my faith and hope of an eventual reconciliation.

[Ariarates]

I can't imagine how I would cope with such a loss. I can understand how a parent would clutch to any straw to overcome their monumental grief. If this is what brings them comfort, then I'm fine with that.

[krose]

You are correct that the prayers do not change what blessings God has already decided. In no way do they compell God to change His mind.

However, they benefit both the giver and the receiver. The giver receives the opportunity to enact God's will through giving the blessings God wishes and to serve others with love. The receiver gains the knowledge of what God's will for him is, along with comfort. All parties gain an opportunity to exercise faith and feel the presence of the Spirit and the power of the priesthood.

They are not pointless.

Okay, I can certainly understand and accept how such prayers are really for the benefit of the giver, and more importantly to comfort the receiver.

But if the priesthood blessing doesn't actually change what the outcome would have been without it, doesn't that reduce the 'power of the priesthood' to being nothing more than a conduit to reveal what was going to happen anyway? And it even fails in that limited role as often as not, because of the many times that people are blessed to recover and they do not.

[Jason]

But if the priesthood blessing doesn't actually change what the outcome would have been without it, doesn't that reduce the 'power of the priesthood' to being nothing more than a conduit to reveal what was going to happen anyway? And it even fails in that limited role as often as not, because of the many times that people are blessed to recover and they do not.

So you are arguing that the Priesthood is merely the conduit through which God enacts His will?

What is "merely" about being the conduit through which a person's life is blessed?

[krose]

So you are arguing that the Priesthood is merely the conduit through which God enacts His will?

What is "merely" about being the conduit through which a person's life is blessed?

No, I'm saying that's the best it could be. I don't think it's anything of the kind.

And even if it provided that revealing power, it counts as "merely" when compared to an actual power to heal someone who would have otherwise died without priesthood intervention.

[Lightbearer]

Not to put it too bluntly, LB, but this sounds like a cop-out.

First you give a blessing where you are right no matter what happens, and then you ascribe it to God.

I think this is called hedging your bets.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

You know that is why sometimes I hesitate to recount sacred experiences on this board. I should have known better, your purpose here seems to be not to learn or share anything but to draw out people to share with you and then hold up that which is sacred to them in contempt or ridicule. I think the remark you made is not worthy of anyone claiming to be a Latter-day Saint. So I guess in future when it comes to posting on your threads I may follow the Savior's advice:

(Matthew 7:6) "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."

[Jason]

No, I'm saying that's the best it could be. I don't think it's anything of the kind.

And even if it provided that revealing power, it counts as "merely" when compared to an actual power to heal someone who would have otherwise died without priesthood intervention.

But it is an actual power to heal someone. It just happens that the power isn't under our direct control.

Whenever the priesthood is used it is as a messenger or conduit for God, acting in His name. Acting as God's messenger - taking on the role of an angel, effectively - is not a "merely".

[cinepro]

Another interesting aspect to this issue are the people who choose to avoid life-saving medical treatment for religious purposes. They too make a choice.

[krose]

But it is an actual power to heal someone. It just happens that the power isn't under our direct control.

So please clarify this scenario for me.

An Elder comes along and blesses a dying girl. The girl is healed. Is it possible that the girl would have died without the blessing? In other words, does the Elder's blessing have the power to change what would have happened to the girl without his intervention, or would God have saved the girl even without the blessing because it was always his will?

[bluebell]

I can't imagine how I would cope with such a loss. I can understand how a parent would clutch to any straw to overcome their monumental grief. If this is what brings them comfort, then I'm fine with that.

As a member, you don't believe in priesthood blessings?

[bluebell]

Another interesting aspect to this issue are the people who choose to avoid life-saving medical treatment for religious purposes. They too make a choice.

I'm assuming that this statement is given to outline an apparent contradiction-that LDS are alright with the idea that a spirit would choose not to continue in mortality but that most LDS would see it as a sin for someone to refuse medical help and die from that choice. From the LDS perspective though, wouldn't trying to compare these two scenerios like trying to compare apples to oranges?

In the case of the belief that a spirit can sometimes choose whether or not to stay, the belief goes with it that God has allowed that either option is alright with Him. With people not getting medical help, from the LDS perspective, the choice was completely the result of the person.

I know that those who feel medicine is evil would disagree, but obviously LDS would reject that notion so their perspective wouldn't apply to this discussion.

[ERayR]

I think we all basically think that death is a bad thing--especially of a child. The last couple of generations are not at all used to death. Most of our ancestors lived in a world where death was common. It would have been very unusual for a person to grow up and have a family without ever having lost at least one (and usually many) person(s) who was very close to them. It was more a part of every day life, and we have lost that experience so we don't have the coping skills that our predecessors had. Modern medicine is an incredibly huge blessing, but it has resulted in us being very poorly prepared to suffer the loss of a child. I personally, will grieve until my death if it happens to me--in spite of my faith and hope of an eventual reconciliation.

Katherine I have lost an infant child. It happened more than 50 years ago and I still think about her. I miss what might have been but I do not think death is a bad thing and if christians are consistant then I don't see how any christian can. How someone dies can be a bad thing. If their death is lingering and painful, if they suffer at someones hands, if they starve, I think you understand. The method of death can be bad but death in itself is part of life and in and of itself it is not bad.

Just some of my thoughts.

[Jason]

So please clarify this scenario for me.

An Elder comes along and blesses a dying girl. The girl is healed. Is it possible that the girl would have died without the blessing? In other words, does the Elder's blessing have the power to change what would have happened to the girl without his intervention, or would God have saved the girl even without the blessing because it was always his will?

If the girl needed a blessing in order to be healed according to God's will, then someone would have appeared and provided it, whether it was this particular elder or someone else.

If it is not God's will that the girl be healed, then she either will not need a priesthood blessing and no one able to give her one will appear, or any priesthood blessing given will be one of comfort rather than one that states she will be healed.

[krose]

If the girl needed a blessing in order to be healed according to God's will, then someone would have appeared and provided it, whether it was this particular elder or someone else.

If it is not God's will that the girl be healed, then she either will not need a priesthood blessing and no one able to give her one will appear, or any priesthood blessing given will be one of comfort rather than one that states she will be healed.

So don't all the available priesthood holders have the free will to refuse to give a blessing to this girl? Or are they not really necessary for God to heal her after all?