Anubis and Osiris vs. Elkenah and Abraham

[RussB]

I'm wondering about the names in the Book of Abraham. Anubis and Osiris vs. Elkenah and Abraham.

It seems obvious to me that that LDS critics have a valid point that Joseph was in error.

I've read some (not all) from Nibley, Gee, and Rhodes. I haven't yet seen that they deal directly with the problem.

What's the LDS take on the names?

[Glenn101]

I'm wondering about the names in the Book of Abraham. Anubis and Osiris vs. Elkenah and Abraham.

It seems obvious to me that that LDS critics have a valid point that Joseph was in error.

I've read some (not all) from Nibley, Gee, and Rhodes. I haven't yet seen that they deal directly with the problem.

What's the LDS take on the names?

Joseph almost surely got the name from Elkenah Pattridge, born 4 Sep 1780 in New Hampshire and dying 3 Mar 1858 in Newy York state. Or maybe from Elkenah Higgins who was born on 13 Oct 1737 in Eastham Massachusetts.

Then there is the Elkenah orphanage in Mamallapuram, India, but it probably was not in existence when Joseph translated the Book of Abraham. But the name exists independent of the Book of Abraham, predates and post dates it. The only question is the etymology.

Here is one LDS scholars take on the name.

Has it been attested to in other ancient texts? I don't know.

Glenn

[RussB]

Joseph almost surely got the name from Elkenah Pattridge, born 4 Sep 1780 in New Hampshire and dying 3 Mar 1858 in Newy York state. Or maybe from Elkenah Higgins who was born on 13 Oct 1737 in Eastham Massachusetts.

Then there is the Elkenah orphanage in Mamallapuram, India, but it probably was not in existence when Joseph translated the Book of Abraham. But the name exists independent of the Book of Abraham, predates and post dates it. The only question is the etymology.

Here is one LDS scholars take on the name.

Has it been attested to in other ancient texts? I don't know.

Glenn

Thanks for the link, Glenn. That was interesting.

The reason for my post, however, is more to the point: It seems obvious to me that LDS critics have a valid point that Joseph was in error.

It's like we have three guys in a room. One man says that person A is Bill and person B is Larry.

Joseph Smith says that person A is Steve and person B is Pete.

Man no. 1 turns and says, "Huh? Nah, I know Bill and Larry. They ain't Steve and Pete."

P.S. Man no. 1 represents all those non-Mormon Egyptologists who claim Joseph got it wrong.

[Glenn101]

Thanks for the link, Glenn. That was interesting.

The reason for my post, however, is more to the point: It seems obvious to me that LDS critics have a valid point that Joseph was in error.

It's like we have three guys in a room. One man says that person A is Bill and person B is Larry.

Joseph Smith says that person A is Steve and person B is Pete.

Man no. 1 turns and says, "Huh? Nah, I know Bill and Larry. They ain't Steve and Pete."

P.S. Man no. 1 represents all those non-Mormon Egyptologists who claim Joseph got it wrong.

If we were talking about an entirely Egyptian document authored by an Egyptian, they might be correct. But we (they) are talking about documents authored by a Hebrew using Egyptian pictures, signs, symbols, etc. The non-Mormon Egyptian scholars have not accepted the Hebrew authorship yet. It would be so very helpful if we had all of the papyrus collection that Joseph obtained from Chandler. Some of the controversy would be resolved, but we are left with bits and pieces from the original collection.

That is about it for my expertise on the subject, which is really nil. You would be better off to engage one or more of the LDS Egyptian scholars on these questions. I already feel dumber for replying.

Glenn

[Duncan]

Thanks for the link, Glenn. That was interesting.

The reason for my post, however, is more to the point: It seems obvious to me that LDS critics have a valid point that Joseph was in error.

It's like we have three guys in a room. One man says that person A is Bill and person B is Larry.

Joseph Smith says that person A is Steve and person B is Pete.

Man no. 1 turns and says, "Huh? Nah, I know Bill and Larry. They ain't Steve and Pete."

P.S. Man no. 1 represents all those non-Mormon Egyptologists who claim Joseph got it wrong.

I wonder who specifically these non-Mormon egyptologists are and what publications they have printed their critiques of The Book of Abraham in. I would be kind of surprised if most have even heard of it let alone read it and knew enough about Joseph Smith to think he came up with the idea for it! I am under the impression that Egyptologists mainly study something in detail connected to Egypt. Just because you are a scholar inone area desn't necessarily make you the go to person for another area. For example a Scholar on the history of trench warfare for Canada in WW1 may not be the person to talk to about the history of the quiet revolution in Quebec in the 1960's. Just my 2 cents of which I am willing to pay back!

[RussB]

I wonder who specifically these non-Mormon egyptologists are and what publications they have printed their critiques of The Book of Abraham in. I would be kind of surprised if most have even heard of it let alone read it and knew enough about Joseph Smith to think he came up with the idea for it! I am under the impression that Egyptologists mainly study something in detail connected to Egypt. Just because you are a scholar inone area desn't necessarily make you the go to person for another area. For example a Scholar on the history of trench warfare for Canada in WW1 may not be the person to talk to about the history of the quiet revolution in Quebec in the 1960's. Just my 2 cents of which I am willing to pay back!

One such person is Dr. Ritner

Screen shot from the video Lost Book of Abraham.

Ritner states that Smith got the story wrong, the names wrong and the genders wrong.

Is Ritner wrong?

[RussB]

If we were talking about an entirely Egyptian document authored by an Egyptian, they might be correct. But we (they) are talking about documents authored by a Hebrew using Egyptian pictures, signs, symbols, etc. The non-Mormon Egyptian scholars have not accepted the Hebrew authorship yet. It would be so very helpful if we had all of the papyrus collection that Joseph obtained from Chandler. Some of the controversy would be resolved, but we are left with bits and pieces from the original collection.

That is about it for my expertise on the subject, which is really nil. You would be better off to engage one or more of the LDS Egyptian scholars on these questions. I already feel dumber for replying.

Glenn

Non-Mormon folks say that fac. 1 is easily recognized as Anubis and Osiris, not Elkenah and Abraham.

I'm hoping for a discussion strictly along those lines.

[Duncan]

One such person is Dr. Ritner

Screen shot from the video Lost Book of Abraham.

Ritner states that Smith got the story wrong, the names wrong and the genders wrong.

Is Ritner wrong?

Is he right? How would I know? Does he speak for every Egyptologist, how would I know? Is he "all"?

[volgadon]

Are you Russ with the anti-Mormon ministry who asked for donations to fix your comp so you could keep on operating your ministry against us?

[Glenn101]

One such person is Dr. Ritner

Screen shot from the video Lost Book of Abraham.

Ritner states that Smith got the story wrong, the names wrong and the genders wrong.

Is Ritner wrong?

Here is one review of some of Ritner's work.

Glenn

[Mordecai]

Barney claims that Nibley is stretching it by saying that Elkenah could be the name of a person, because of the following: "...and the Lord broke down the altar of Elkenah, and of the gods of the land..." I don't see that at all. Barney says this suggests the equating of the gods of the land with Elkenah. That doesn't look to be the case at all to me. I'm going to go with Nibley. There is nothing in that phrase that indicates they are equivalent. Even if Elkenah was considered a god, we have to consider the Egyptians considered Pharoahs to be gods.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

There are countless papers on the topic here at this site. Your idea is; if JS got one thing wrong who is to say he did not get everything wrong. It is called "planting the seed of doubt". So now your tactic is to pit one Latter-day Saint against another? When your aim is to read all you can from any source to discredit our faith, you can only find fault. I believe the Bible is clear on that topic; you are

[Olavarria]

I'm wondering about the names in the Book of Abraham. Anubis and Osiris vs. Elkenah and Abraham.

It seems obvious to me that that LDS critics have a valid point that Joseph was in error.

I've read some (not all) from Nibley, Gee, and Rhodes. I haven't yet seen that they deal directly with the problem.

What's the LDS take on the names?

It all depends on a number of factors, one of which is what was attached to the HBoB(see the debates on scroll length).

As for Abraham/Osiris,

has an interesting take.

In my amatuer opinion, Elkenah might simply be the name of a Syrian man who worshipped Anubis, or other Jackal headed god.

[Olavarria]

One such person is Dr. Ritner

Screen shot from the video Lost Book of Abraham.

Ritner states that Smith got the story wrong, the names wrong and the genders wrong.

Is Ritner wrong?

IMHO Ritner and IRR are making the mistake of "believing" the strawman of BoB=BoA.

Every LDS knowledgable on the subject agrees with Ritner, BoB does not = BoA.

The problem is no one on the other side wants to go beyond that.

[Olavarria]

Non-Mormon folks say that fac. 1 is easily recognized as Anubis and Osiris, not Elkenah and Abraham.

I'm hoping for a discussion strictly along those lines.

Are you sure that is a definitivly non-mormon stance? If so BYU is guilty of printing anti

Here is how I see it: We have Joseph's view(J), the Egyptological view(E) and the ancient view(A).

My questian is:

Does E=A? If so, how do we know?

Does J=A? If so, how do we know?

Does J=E? We already know the answer to that,no.

[volgadon]

Or Elkenah is the local name for the deity. Have you never heard of Zeus-Dushara or Aphrodite-al-Uzzah?

[Olavarria]

Or Elkenah is the local name for the deity. Have you never heard of Zeus-Dushara or Aphrodite-al-Uzzah?

Good point.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

IMHO Ritner and IRR are making the mistake of "believing" the strawman of BoB=BoA.

Every LDS knowledgable on the subject agrees with Ritner, BoB does not = BoA.

The problem is no one on the other side wants to go beyond that.

I couldn't have said it better myself. This is a critical point that I think most critics don't want to go there. I have heard from many that they think the BoA comes from the BoB. I believe Chris Smith might even campion this position. I might be mistaken in that though.

[RussB]

To all:

I read every word in the posts. I read every word in the links supplied.

Abraham/Elkenah Anubis/Osiris remains a mystery unexplained.

Therefore, I think the critics are right. Smith got the story wrong, he got the names wrong, he got their genders wrong.

That's not me being anti-Mormon. That's me examining every word you and other Mormons have to say and coming to the conclusion that *shrug*.

[volgadon]

So are you or aren't you that same Russ from CARM with a computer anti-Mormon ministry?

[sunstoned]

To all:

I read every word in the posts. I read every word in the links supplied.

Abraham/Elkenah Anubis/Osiris remains a mystery unexplained.

Therefore, I think the critics are right. Smith got the story wrong, he got the names wrong, he got their genders wrong.

That's not me being anti-Mormon. That's me examining every word you and other Mormons have to say and coming to the conclusion that *shrug*.

[sunstoned]

To all:

I read every word in the posts. I read every word in the links supplied.

Abraham/Elkenah Anubis/Osiris remains a mystery unexplained.

Therefore, I think the critics are right. Smith got the story wrong, he got the names wrong, he got their genders wrong.

That's not me being anti-Mormon. That's me examining every word you and other Mormons have to say and coming to the conclusion that *shrug*.

Yes, Joseph got it wrong. Every Egyptologist agrees. The BoD does not equal the BoA. Not even close. Joseph stated this is from the hand of Abraham, but it

[volgadon]

You got sunstoned again.

[sunstoned]

You got sunstoned again.

Facts are facts. I'm not making this up. The translation is not what JS says it is. I wish it was. I invested 30 years in this, and it is painful to realize that I have been deceived.

[volgadon]

Facts are facts.

Absolutely. Hollow assertions, no matter how virulent, do not constitute facts.