Anubis and Osiris vs. Elkenah and Abraham

[Olavarria]

To all:

I read every word in the posts. I read every word in the links supplied.

Abraham/Elkenah Anubis/Osiris remains a mystery unexplained.

Therefore, I think the critics are right. Smith got the story wrong, he got the names wrong, he got their genders wrong.

That's not me being anti-Mormon. That's me examining every word you and other Mormons have to say and coming to the conclusion that *shrug*.

Maybe you're listening to the wrong Mormons. If you really want well informed opinions on these issues I suggest that you read what Gee has had to say. He's probably the best guy we have on these issues.

A Method for Studying the Facsimiles

Some Puzzles from the Joseph Smith Papyri

The Larger Issue

[Blake]

To all:

I read every word in the posts. I read every word in the links supplied.

Abraham/Elkenah Anubis/Osiris remains a mystery unexplained.

Therefore, I think the critics are right. Smith got the story wrong, he got the names wrong, he got their genders wrong.

That's not me being anti-Mormon. That's me examining every word you and other Mormons have to say and coming to the conclusion that *shrug*.

Don't be obtuse. Elkenah is a fairly easily derivable Near Eastern name using the theophoric name El and Kenah a region of the near east. Further, in case you didn't notice, the facsimiles are not translations and don't intend to be. Joseph Smith is explaining the relation between Egyptian types and the Book of Abraham that was given to him by revelation. It was quite proper to equate Abraham with Osiris as Facsimiles Nos. 1 and 3 -- in fact the Testament of Abraham (a pseudepigraphic document probably written in Egypt from the same period as the Book of Breathings that Joseph Smith possessed) used the scene from ch. 125 of the Book of Dead to illustrate Abraham's visions (as Joseph Smith does) and equates Abraham with Osiris. Anubis who is equated with Elkenah is the type of the God of the underworld who prepares the body for its visions of the circuit of the sun -- as in the Apocalypse of Abraham which has a vision very similar to that of the Book of Abraham with what I consider to be rather amazing parallels.

[RussB]

To all:

I read every word in the posts. I read every word in the links supplied.

Abraham/Elkenah Anubis/Osiris remains a mystery unexplained.

Therefore, I think the critics are right. Smith got the story wrong, he got the names wrong, he got their genders wrong.

That's not me being anti-Mormon. That's me examining every word you and other Mormons have to say and coming to the conclusion that *shrug*.

P.S. LDS apologists desire to come off as experts on the matter, but the real experts disagree with you.

IF LDS apologists desire to be taken seriously, they should present peer-reviewed, non-LDS material substantiating Smith's claims.

[RussB]

Don't be obtuse. Elkenah is a fairly easily derivable Near Eastern name using the theophoric name El and Kenah a region of the near east. Further, in case you didn't notice, the facsimiles are not translations and don't intend to be. Joseph Smith is explaining the relation between Egyptian types and the Book of Abraham that was given to him by revelation. It was quite proper to equate Abraham with Osiris as Facsimiles Nos. 1 and 3 -- in fact the Testament of Abraham (a pseudepigraphic document probably written in Egypt from the same period as the Book of Breathings that Joseph Smith possessed) used the scene from ch. 125 of the Book of Dead to illustrate Abraham's visions (as Joseph Smith does) and equates Abraham with Osiris. Anubis who is equated with Elkenah is the type of the God of the underworld who prepares the body for its visions of the circuit of the sun -- as in the Apocalypse of Abraham which has a vision very similar to that of the Book of Abraham with what I consider to be rather amazing parallels.

Sorry for being obtuse?

"Further, in case you didn't notice, the facsimiles are not translations and don't intend to be."

Fac. 1 presents Elkenah and Abraham.

Egyptologists present Anubis and Osiris.

What's going on here?

[volgadon]

I take your silence as an yes, I am that Russ from CARM with the anti-Mormon ministry.

[USU78]

El-Kenah is connected with the Kenites, who, as far as anybody seems to know, are Jeremiah's teetoteling friends whom he brought into the Temple, and whom G-d blessed for their particular devotion. El-Kenah would mean something like "El of the Kenites," a name not far different from the other "Els" listed in the OT, whom we believe are all the same G_d of Abraham.

The secondary literature traces these Kenites to the Second Temple cult as far down in history to the time of the Master and immediately thereafter.

It is entirely appropriate that an individual engaging in a priestly function in a temple setting would bear a theophoric name associated with Jeremiah's friends as well as Heber the Kenite, the great hero and husband of a great heroine of Israel.

The name cannot be an accident.

Russ, you're lagging way behind. Come join us in actually studying the BoA, including the facsimiles. You're stuck at "Go," and you'll never get that $200 unless you start moving your piece around the board.

[RussB]

Maybe you're listening to the wrong Mormons. If you really want well informed opinions on these issues I suggest that you read what Gee has had to say. He's probably the best guy we have on these issues.

A Method for Studying the Facsimiles

Some Puzzles from the Joseph Smith Papyri

The Larger Issue

I've been listening to the authoritative Mormon, Joseph Smith. Smith said Elkenah/Abraham. Experts on the matter say Anubis/Osiris.

That's the real issue.

You've given me three more links to peruse. I'll get to them tomorrow.

I'm hoping that the Elkenah/Abraham/Anubis/Osiris issue will be addressed.

[RussB]

....You're stuck at "Go," and you'll never get that $200 unless you start moving your piece around the board.

How condescending of you!

I'm looking for peer-reviewed, non-LDS agreement here.

Are you able... willing and ready to be all that you can be?

[volgadon]

As you are the head of an anti-Mormon ministry, is it silly of me to suppose that you had no intention of walking out of here with anything but the assumptions you had coming in?

[Blake]

Sorry for being obtuse?

"Further, in case you didn't notice, the facsimiles are not translations and don't intend to be."

Fac. 1 presents Elkenah and Abraham.

Egyptologists present Anubis and Osiris.

What's going on here?

Russ: You don't read very well apparently. It appears from solid evidence in peer reviewed journals that Osiris is the type of Abraham in Jewish literature as an interpretation of the Book of the Dead. Pay attention. Your nonsense here is childish and isn't going to persuade anyone of anything except your childish antics.

[Mortal Man]

It was quite proper to equate Abraham with Osiris as Facsimiles Nos. 1 and 3

Additionally, he equated Abraham with Osiris in both the hieroglypic and hieratic portions of the text. This strikes me as a remarkable coincidence that apologists have missed.

[handys003]

If Egyptologosts have the language so down pat, then why can't they interpret symbols found on the walls of Abydos (see pics attached). Lets also note that Egyptologists claim the Sphinx is only built at 2500 BCE, whereas now two science disciplines (geology and astronomy) counter claims the Sphinx is much older. It's all a matter of interpretation eventhough most is probably correct, not all can be deciphered. Therefore Egyptologists are not perfect in their assessments.

[Olavarria]

I alaways thought this was interesting:

... AIDIO ORICH THAMBITO, Abraham who at... PLANOIEGCHIBIOTH MOU ROU and the whole soul for her, NN [whom NN bore]... the female body of her, NN [whom NN bore], I conjure by the... [and] to inflame her, NN whom [NN bore] [Write these] words together with this picture [the lion couch vignette] on a new papyrus.

Source

The Greek Magical Papyri in Translation, Including the Demotic Spells, Volume 12d edition

[Olavarria]

Additionally, he equated Abraham with Osiris in both the hieroglypic and hieratic portions of the text. This strikes me as a remarkable coincidence that apologists have missed.

Kerry Shirts has mentioned it before. For me, equating a resurrected and enthroned god with Abraham seems right at home from an LDS point of view.

D&C 132:37

37)Abraham received concubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Russ: You don't read very well apparently. It appears from solid evidence in peer reviewed journals that Osiris is the type of Abraham in Jewish literature as an interpretation of the Book of the Dead. Pay attention. Your nonsense here is childish and isn't going to persuade anyone of anything except your childish antics.

You are wasting your time. He missed such an obvious thing, that you had stated.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

To all:

I read every word in the posts. I read every word in the links supplied.

Abraham/Elkenah Anubis/Osiris remains a mystery unexplained.

Therefore, I think the critics are right. Smith got the story wrong, he got the names wrong, he got their genders wrong.

That's not me being anti-Mormon. That's me examining every word you and other Mormons have to say and coming to the conclusion that *shrug*.

Part of "reading every word" is to understand what one has read. You have not demonstarted that you understand what we are talking about. Until you demonstrate that, this is a complete waste of both of our time.

[USU78]

How condescending of you!

wow. just wow.

You sure got me. I'll just have to go lie down for a while until I recover from such a masterful putdown.

And RB pulled it off without even a hint of irony.

wow

[RussB]

As you are the head of an anti-Mormon ministry, is it silly of me to suppose that you had no intention of walking out of here with anything but the assumptions you had coming in?

I came seeking the very best explanation that LDSism has to offer.

The best explanation offered is loosely connected dots, maybe's and hope-so's.

Is that the kind of religion you want?

[SilverKnight]

Russ-

At this point you should definitely tell your brood at CARM that you've got the mormons on the ropes

[volgadon]

You came seeking a gotcha. Have you boasted to and gloated with CARM yet?

When dealing with the past, all too frequently, we have to make do with loosely connected dots, maybe's and hope-so's. The same is true for biblical archaeology.

Dunno about you, but I prefer to put my faith in God and recieve confirmation from him, not from egyptologists.

[LifeOnaPlate]

I came seeking the very best explanation that LDSism has to offer.

The best explanation offered is loosely connected dots, maybe's and hope-so's.

Is that the kind of religion you want?

It seems to me you don't understand the responses you've been given, based on your loose caricature.

[RussB]

Russ-

At this point you should definitely tell your brood at CARM that you've got the mormons on the ropes

[LifeOnaPlate]

The Bible clearly tells us that Abraham would have in no way been connected with pagan idolatry.

I disagree with your reading of the Bible, which appears to be founded in some sort of assumption that it's inerrant. I also disagree with your distinction of "pagan" and your reading of JS's revelations.

[RussB]

I disagree with your reading of the Bible, which appears to be founded in some sort of assumption that it's inerrant. I also disagree with your distinction of "pagan" and your reading of JS's revelations.

God calls the religion of the ancient Egyptians pagan. It was based/steeped in idolatry. Men worshiping men and their counterparts rather than worshiping only God.

[LifeOnaPlate]

God calls the religion of the ancient Egyptians pagan. It was based/steeped in idolatry. Men worshiping men and their counterparts rather than worshiping only God.

The BoA depicts Abraham as rejecting his father's worship of false gods. What's pagan about that?

Did you put up a Christmas tree last December, by the way?