The Last Mormon Freedom

[Jeff K.]

And their "opinions" out weigh mine how? Do I not have just as much access to God as they do? Is he not the God of all? You're preaching a God who is a respector of Persons. Sorry Jeff.

I am preaching a God who organized His church. That does not mean he is a respector of persons, it does mean that God requires you to respect the authority of his servants, whether by His mouth of the mouth of His servants (ie those in authority).

What ever happend to the term... "By the Authority of the Melq Priesthood which we hold, we place..." It seems someone wasn't paying attention in Gospel Principles Class when Authority and Keys were explained.

It seems you don't have a true understanding. You have the higher priesthood, but you do not have the authority to use it for anything beyond what you are permitted to do by those in authority.

Joseph Smith held the Melchizedek priesthood, and yet, he could not baptize for the dead until the keys were given to him.

But you don't have to believe me.

Temple Work

[Zakuska]

Now you're conflating priesthood authority and ward authority. Again, you've picked the wrong battle here.

The Authority is all the same thing Maklelan.

Keys are what Grant a person Jurisdiction over say... "The Primary" Or "Relief Society", or the Deacons Quroum.

Here... you and Jeff read the leason and see where you are going wrong.

http://www.lds.org/l...1-13-21,00.html

Keys of the Priesthood

"There is a difference between priesthood [ie Authority] and the 'keys' of the priesthood. A priest in a ward has power sufficient to baptize, yet he has not the right to perform this ordinance until he has been authorized by the bishop. The bishop has the 'keys' to administer to the affairs belonging under his ecclesiastical jurisdiction. Therefore, he is the person who can tell a priest to baptize.

"The president and prophet of the Church has the 'keys' of the priesthood to administer in all spiritual and temporal affairs of the Church. It is his right to delegate stake presidents, bishops, patriarchs and others, as holders of the 'keys' pertaining to specific offices in certain geographical areas.

"President Joseph F. Smith taught on this subject:

" 'Every man ordained to any degree of the priesthood has this authority delegated to him. But it is necessary that every act performed under this authority shall be done at the proper time and place, in the proper way, and after the proper order. The power of directing these labors constitutes the keys of the priesthood' (Gospel Doctrine, p. 136)" (Melvin R. Brooks, L.D.S. Reference Encyclopedia, p. 393).

There is a difference between Authority (having the power) and Authorization (keys) to use the power.

PS. JeffK I'll take PROPHET of the CHurch Joseph F. Smith and the Gospel Principles manual over Russ Nelson (a mere Apostle) ten ways to Sunday. Perhaps Russ needs to get back to the Basics too.

If you notice we were arguing over nothing, we were saying the same thing.

[Zakuska]

I can't imagine a scenario where airing grievances has a legitimate spiritual point.

I can.

[Scott Lloyd]

Part of the dynamic that's playing out here is the whole ward family issue.

I'm curious about the derivation of this "ward family" concept. I hear the phrase frequently these days, in prayers, talks, etc. As far as I can tell, though, the concept is not taught in any official way; rather, it seems to be a cultural thing, almost a fad.

We regard other Church members as brothers and sisters in the gospel, of course. But regarding your ward as your family? It strikes me as a tad exclusionary. What happens when the ward is divided, or ward boundaries realigned? Is this viewed as a disruption of the "family"? Do you view other members of the stake as being, in some way, outsiders because they're not part of the "family"?

It's possible, I suppose, that this might be a totally acceptable thing, perhaps even supportable by official Church documents, curriculum materials, etc. If so, I would stand corrected. But for the moment, it bothers me a bit.

[clairc829]

We regard other Church members as brothers and sisters in the gospel, of course. But regarding your ward as your family? It strikes me as a tad exclusionary. What happens when the ward is divided, or ward boundaries realigned? Is this viewed as a disruption of the "family"? Do you view other members of the stake as being, in some way, outsiders because they're not part of the "family"?

My family is a yours mine and ours situation, fits what you have said here very well.

[notHagoth7]

I'm curious about the derivation of this "ward family" concept. I hear the phrase frequently these days, in prayers, talks, etc. As far as I can tell, though, the concept is not taught in any official way; rather, it seems to be a cultural thing, almost a fad.

I'm also trying to bring back the mullet.

Bell bottoms.

And pet rocks.

We regard other Church members as brothers and sisters in the gospel, of course. But regarding your ward as your family? It strikes me as a tad exclusionary.

It might seem that way.

What happens when the ward is divided, or ward boundaries realigned? Is this viewed as a disruption of the "family"?

A sad divorce.

Or crazy Uncle Louie and his family packing up and moving to California.

Do you view other members of the stake as being, in some way, outsiders because they're not part of the "family"?

No.

Just not as enlightened. (Kidding).

(Our ward is, of course, more true than others.)

Seriously for the briefest of moments, I've had bishops refer to the ward as a family. And for me, it works.

It's possible, I suppose, that this might be a totally acceptable thing, perhaps even supportable by official Church documents, curriculum materials, etc. If so, I would stand corrected. But for the moment, it bothers me a bit.

Feel free to take it up with my former bishops (should you ever meet any of them).

[maklelan]

The Authority is all the same thing Make.

Keys are what Grant a person Jurisdiction over say... "The Primary" Or "Relief Society", or the Deacons Quroum.

Here... you and Jeff read the leason and see where you are going wrong.

http://www.lds.org/l...1-13-21,00.html

But you flagrantly beg the question here:

"There is a difference between priesthood [ie Authority] and the 'keys' of the priesthood.

You simply take your assertion and insert it into the text as if it's what the text says. It's not. I corrected your original assertion to read as that text says rather than as you said it.

There is a difference between Authority (having the power) and Authorization (keys) to use the power.

"Authorize" means "to set up as authoritative." You're just misreading the texts.

[Zakuska]

But you flagrantly beg the question here:

You simply take your assertion and insert it into the text as if it's what the text says. It's not. I corrected your original assertion to read as that text says rather than as you said it.

"Authorize" means "to set up as authoritative." You're just misreading the texts.

What have I said about the Subject Maklelan?

- Every Man in this Church has the Same "Authority"

- Every Man does not have the same "keys"

Is that not eaxctly what the PROPHET Joseph F. Smith said right here?

'Every man ordained to any degree of the priesthood has this authority delegated to him. But it is necessary that every act performed under this authority shall be done at the proper time and place, in the proper way, and after the proper order. The power of directing these labors constitutes the keys of the priesthood' (Gospel Doctrine, p. 136)" (Melvin R. Brooks, L.D.S. Reference Encyclopedia, p. 393).

Are you going to acuse him of "Missreading" too?

Like I said... Thank GOD we are teaching Gospel Principles this year!

[maklelan]

I can.

By all means, describe one.

[maklelan]

What have I said about the Subject Maklelan?

- Every Man in this Church has the Same "Authority"

- Every Man does not have the same "keys"

The authority of the priesthood, not the authority of the bishopric. I've already explained that you're conflating the two. Tell me, does a Relief Society president have any authority over her ward's Relief Society?

Is that not eaxctly what the PROPHET Joseph F. Smith said right here?

No, it's not. I've explained this already.

Are you going to acuse him of "Missreading" too?

Like I said... Thank GOD we are teaching Gospel Principles this year!

Well crafted.

[Jeff K.]

The Authority is all the same thing Maklelan.

Keys are what Grant a person Jurisdiction over say... "The Primary" Or "Relief Society", or the Deacons Quroum.

Here... you and Jeff read the leason and see where you are going wrong.

http://www.lds.org/l...1-13-21,00.html

There is a difference between Authority (having the power) and Authorization (keys) to use the power.

PS. JeffK I'll take PROPHET of the CHurch Joseph F. Smith and the Gospel Principles manual over Russ Nelson (a mere Apostle) ten ways to Sunday. Perhaps Russ needs to get back to the Basics too.

If you notice we were arguing over nothing, we were saying the same thing.

You may be right regarding the argument being over nothing.

I think there is some conflation going on, and I still allowance to use a power as being in authority to use it, but it seems to be in danger of falling into a woeful semantic argument.

Thanks for the references though.

[Garden Girl]

That's part of sacrament meeting that I will miss. I see the reason for it - but it sterilizes/neuters the vibrant social interaction that used to take place in ward meetings. I'll miss it.

But, on the other hand, I can't tell you how often I (and other ward members) felt embarassment at being publicly told inappropriate family problems, etc etc by several ward members who didn't have the good sense as to what a testimony is all about. One sister used to abuse F&T meetings to the point that my ill will toward her became almost a problem for me, and I would find myself asking for forgiveness as I would watch her make her way to the pulpit and I would be thinking unkind thoughts about her. Just the type of feelings one wants to feel, right? Finally, the bishop counseled on F&T meetings, put an end to whispering in children's ears, and now our F&T meetings are very uplifting. If a "story" is told, it is brief and has an appropriate connection. Younger children's testimonies are in primary, or at home. The youngsters that do come forward are well able to express their own thoughts...

F&T meeting is my favorite...

GG

[Lightbearer]

First and foremost let me say that I feel for anyone who has the thankless job of being a Bishop. In general they are greatly unappreciated and members tend to hold them up to the strictest level of perfection and if they fall short then there are accusations of "unrighteous dominion" or "authoritarian rule" or such like terms of endearment. It is the duty of the Bishop to be the "common judge" and to decide matters of things pertaining to the gifts of the spirit. As this indicates:

(D&C 46:26-27) "And all these gifts come from God, for the benefit of the children of God. And unto the bishop of the church, and unto such as God shall appoint and ordain to watch over the church and to be elders unto the church, are to have it given unto them to discern all those gifts lest there shall be any among you professing and yet be not of God."

So it is within his right to say what is appropriate for Testimony meeting and what is not. This of course must be balanced with mercy and compassion as well, we are commanded to "bear one another's burdens" and some may see testimony meeting as an opportunity to "unburden" their thoughts. I have no problems with stories that are faith promoting, that have been experienced by the person giving the testimony. Although there is a responsibility connected with the bearing of testimony, we must be guided by the spirit of the Lord in our thoughts, if we are not then it is "NOT OF GOD" and will not be accounted unto us for righteousness. Someone mentioned Kirtland and some of the odd things that happened there, in fact this problem was addressed in D&C section 50:

(D&C 50:2-23) "Behold, verily I say unto you, that there are many spirits which are false spirits, which have gone forth in the earth, deceiving the world. And also Satan hath sought to deceive you, that he might overthrow you. Behold, I, the Lord, have looked upon you, and have seen abominations in the church that profess my name. But blessed are they who are faithful and endure, whether in life or in death, for they shall inherit eternal life. But wo unto them that are deceivers and hypocrites, for, thus saith the Lord, I will bring them to judgment. Behold, verily I say unto you, there are hypocrites among you, who have deceived some, which has given the adversary power; but behold such shall be reclaimed; But the hypocrites shall be detected and shall be cut off, either in life or in death, even as I will; and wo unto them who are cut off from my church, for the same are overcome of the world. Wherefore, let every man beware lest he do that which is not in truth and righteousness before me. And now come, saith the Lord, by the Spirit, unto the elders of his church, and let us reason together, that ye may understand; Let us reason even as a man reasoneth one with another face to face. Now, when a man reasoneth he is understood of man, because he reasoneth as a man; even so will I, the Lord, reason with you that you may understand. Wherefore, I the Lord ask you this question

[Garden Girl]

I'm curious about the derivation of this "ward family" concept. I hear the phrase frequently these days, in prayers, talks, etc. As far as I can tell, though, the concept is not taught in any official way; rather, it seems to be a cultural thing, almost a fad.

Hello Scott...

About the "ward family." As a widow, 69 years old, no children, living alone in the wilds of the beautiful central Oregon coast, let me tell you about my ward "family." These are the men and women who have come to my aid with love and charity on numerous occasions when my budget would not allow the freedom to call in outside help.

These are my ward sisters who signed up to come and "babysit" me 24-7 after knee replacement surgery, or to bring in meals so I wouldn't have to cook...

these are those who mourned with me when my dear husband died so unexpectedly... who comforted me... were available to talk if I was hurting in the middle of a lonely night.

These are the members who include me in their holiday family get togethers so that I don't have to be alone.

"Ward family" may not be official, but I am oh so thankful for mine... I could not have made it without them after my recent surgery, and, I try to give of myself to other members when needed...

GG

[Mortal Man]

Hello Scott...

About the "ward family." As a widow, 69 years old, no children, living alone in the wilds of the beautiful central Oregon coast, let me tell you about my ward "family." These are the men and women who have come to my aid with love and charity on numerous occasions when my budget would not allow the freedom to call in outside help.

These are my ward sisters who signed up to come and "babysit" me 24-7 after knee replacement surgery, or to bring in meals so I wouldn't have to cook...

these are those who mourned with me when my dear husband died so unexpectedly... who comforted me... were available to talk if I was hurting in the middle of a lonely night.

These are the members who include me in their holiday family get togethers so that I don't have to be alone.

"Ward family" may not be official, but I am oh so thankful for mine... I could not have made it without them after my recent surgery, and, I try to give of myself to other members when needed...

GG

Well said GG. Not only have you reminded us what the church is all about, you have managed to dispel the makelan-Zakuska-Jeff K. death match.

[Zakuska]

Well said GG. Not only have you reminded us what the church is all about, you have managed to dispel the makelan-Zakuska-Jeff K. death match.

Hey... Why pay $20.00 for RAW when you can come to MADB and get in free.

PS. We love you GG.

[Jeff K.]

The last deathmatch I was in was with the Zohan..... Note I am posting and there is no Zohan sequel..

[Pahoran]

So, in your view, there is only one remaining "Mormon freedom" -- the "freedom" to hijack Fast and Testimony meeting -- and it's in danger of disappearing.

Really?

Our bishop has been fighting a battle with the ward members.

Then it's high time they repented.

He hates travelogues during Fast and Testimony Meeting

Good.

and often commiserates with his counselors on how to get the members to stick to the standard testimony.

There is no such thing as "the standard testimony." You made that up.

A few months ago a lady in the ward bore her testimony on the danger that the recent near-Earth asteroid posed to mankind. Her testimony was unusual in several respects

The most important being that it was not a testimony.

As such, it was an imposition upon the Latter-day Saints and a waste of their time.

Regards,

Pahoran

[maklelan]

The last deathmatch I was in was with the Zohan..... Note I am posting and there is no Zohan sequel..

The scene where Rob Schneider tries to call the Hezbollah was hilarious. That and the Dave Matthews cameo.

[jwhitlock]

Parhaps you like Iron fisted Gastopo churchs. I for one do not.

Well, there's a disappointing response. Evidently we have to let anyone get up and say anything they want, or this is what you think is happening.

Over-hyping something like this isn't good for credibility.

[jwhitlock]

If the person is letting the spirit guide them in the telling of their testimony, then how could it be wrong. I'm sure the consensus might be that the person wasn't letting the spirit guide. . . or something along those lines, but I personally know people that bear their testimonies in the "questionable ways" exampled in the OP, that would disagree that it was anything but spiritually guided.

It is more than evident that far too many people are not being guided by the Spirit in what they say.

[jwhitlock]

We have a gentleman in our ward who gets up every month or two and does just this.....and yet the tone of his voice, the way he looks at us, the tears in his eyes......it speaks volumes. He rarely tells anything of his personal experiences when he says these few lines and if he does, it is very impersonal, yet his testimony is really deeply intimate, more so that many other testimonies.

These are precisely the testimonies I remember from when I was a teenager. Short, sweet, Spirit filled, and edifying.

I find that fact that some on this thread are trying to denigrate such testimonies, in favor of tripe that is "more interesting" troublesome. It's almost like these people want to undermine the very presence of the Spirit in sacrament meetings...

[Zakuska]

These are precisely the testimonies I remember from when I was a teenager. Short, sweet, Spirit filled, and edifying.

I find that fact that some on this thread are trying to denigrate such testimonies, in favor of tripe that is "more interesting" troublesome. It's almost like these people want to undermine the very presence of the Spirit in sacrament meetings...

And yet some people can feel the spirits voice in an Earthquake, Whrilwind and around the camp fire.

[alter idem]

Our bishop has been fighting a battle with the ward members.

He hates travelogues during Fast and Testimony Meeting and often commiserates with his counselors on how to get the members to stick to the standard testimony. In bishopric meeting, he's been bringing up talks by apostles about the proper way to bear your testimony and how it interrupts the spirit when you go off into your own personal experiences. If he had his way, I think he'd actually engrave the proper testimony words into the podium and require everyone coming up to the stand to read them verbatim, like the sacrament prayer.

Fast and Testimony meeting is for bearing witness of the Savior, the truthfulness of his church, his prophets, the atonement, the scriptures. It is not for telling stories. Your Bishop is trying to correct the misconceptions and bad habits the members of his ward have fallen into.

A few months ago a lady in the ward bore her testimony on the danger that the recent near-Earth asteroid posed to mankind. Her testimony was unusual in several respects but I found it entertaining and thought that she made a valid point near the end. The bishop and his counselors, however, were so agitated by her remarks that they took the unusual step of calling her up and cancelling her appointment to speak in Sacrament meeting the following Sunday. Then, in response to her and several other "problem" members of the ward, they went a step further and arranged for a special joint Priesthood and Relief Society lesson on the DOs and DON'Ts of testimony bearing, wherein the First Counselor spoke very bluntly about inappropriate speech in F&T Meeting (it was hard to mistake who he was talking about).

The woman's 'testimony' was not a testimony and it was inappropriate for a fast and testimony meeting. No wonder they feel they need to teach your ward the proper bearing of testimony. Even if you found it 'entertaining', it still had no place in an LDS testimony meeting.

It seems to me that, in an age where the slightest deviation from the lesson manual is strictly forbidden, a lot of members cherish their once-a-month freedom to express themselves in a manner not dictated by the Correlation Committee.

I don't agree that this is their 'freedom'. If they want to 'express' themselves, they need to find some other venue. It sounds like some in your ward need to understand what Fast and Testimony meeting is for and they need to learn how to 'bear witness'--clearly some of them haven't got a clue what the meeting is actually for. Sadly, they are robbing the rest of the members of a real meeting--one that invites the spirit and allows the spirit to witness to the listeners. I think your Bishop and other leaders are doing their best, but they can't fight the members if they refuse to be taught.

[jwhitlock]

And yet some people can feel the spirits voice in an Earthquake, Whrilwind and around the camp fire.

Since we're talking about testimony meeting, those things don't apply.

We're talking about things that happen far too often in testimony meeting that make Tammy Faye Bakker look good. No Spirit, no uplift, no edification. Just an open mic for someone to "express" themselves, wasting time that has been designated for the nurturing of the saints.