The Last Mormon Freedom

[Zakuska]

Since we're talking about testimony meeting, those things don't apply.

We're talking about things that happen far too often in testimony meeting that make Tammy Faye Bakker look good. No Spirit, no uplift, no edification. Just an open mic for someone to "express" themselves, wasting time that has been designated for the nurturing of the saints.

I completely agree... some "testimonies" never should have been born in our meetings. Im just tired of all the Self Righteous self agrandizements I'm seeing some people express on this thread.

Let me give you an example. We have a young lady in our ward. She had twins a couple years ago. The State almost ended up taking the kids because, she's a little slow if you know what I mean and so the Releif Society stepped in to help and teach her how to take care of the kids. Im not even sure if her husband is a member. When she participates in classes, or bares her testimony it always comes off as "a little weird", more primary level responses than anything else, and not always on subject. She's also an exquiset Piano player. Plays for the Primary.

Should the Bishop step in and ask her not to participate all together because of her "weirdness"?

A lot of people in the Congregation who are new in our ward look at this young lady with some of the same self righteous comtemptuois attitudes I'm seeing expressed on this thread. Personally it makes me sick. ALL of us are children of God and deserve the same rights as anyone else to express our selves to others without our words being deemed "A waste of time". We all deserve the same Respect.

PS. Even Tammy Faye Bakker was a daughter of God.

[alter idem]

If the person is letting the spirit guide them in the telling of their testimony, then how could it be wrong. I'm sure the consensus might be that the person wasn't letting the spirit guide. . . or something along those lines, but I personally know people that bear their testimonies in the "questionable ways" exampled in the OP, that would disagree that it was anything but spiritually guided.

That's the problem. They are NOT letting the spirit guide them. They are getting up there and saying what they want to-and I say that because if they were listening to the Apostles and their leaders, they know they are not really 'bearing witness'--which is the whole point of the meeting.

But IMO, it's not the old members' fault. For generations F&T meeting was allowed to devolve into an 'open mic' type of meeting. Talking to an older sister, she said that when she was young, people would get up and play the piano, or read a poem in F&T meeting, all kinds of things we would raise an eyebrow at now.

So, for the last 20 years or so we are in what Pres. Packer would call a 'course correction'. Our Apostles and other church leaders are trying to teach the members how to bear 'pure testimony'--some listen, understand their reasons for it and try to follow the counsel, but others go on their merry way, ignoring the point of the meeting and rejecting any counsel on their responsibility if they choose to get up.

However, the sad fact is that getting up to 'bear witness' of Christ and then doing everything but bearing witness of Christ is just pathetic and wrong..and Members of the Lord's church should do better at it. It's not like they haven't been taught and taught. And if they read their scriptures, they know what 'testimony' is and should be able to do it correctly.

[Zakuska]

However, the sad fact is that getting up to 'bear witness' of Christ and then doing everything but bearing witness of Christ is just pathetic and wrong..and Members of the Lord's church should do better at it. It's not like they haven't been taught and taught. And if they read their scriptures, they know what 'testimony' is and should be able to do it correctly.

CFR. Were's the formula for testimony baring laid out in scripture?

I know... Maybe we should join the Catholics and start reciting the Lords prayer at every meeting?

There is no "CORRECT WAY" to bare a testimony, its a complete Myth.

[jwhitlock]

I completely agree... some "testimonies" never should have been born in our meetings...

ALL of us are children of God and deserve the same rights as anyone else to express our selves to others without our words being deemed "A waste of time". We all deserve the same Respect.

Quite a contradiction, there.

However, you strike at the root of your misunderstanding. Testimony meeting is not a time to "express ourselves". It's not a stage for performance. It's not an opportunity for a captive audience. It's not open mic. "Weirdness" isn't a problem if the Spirit is present as the person struggles to express themselves. But it is also evident when a person is yapping on, wasting time, addressing their own agenda and not the purpose of the meeting.

And no - such people do not deserve our respect, or our attention for wasting our time.

PS. Even Tammy Faye Bakker was a daughter of God.

And a total waste of time if you're looking for something spiritual, edifying, or uplifting. Hence the appropriateness of using her as an example.

[Jeff K.]

alter idem, on 04 January 2010 - 08:01 PM, said:

However, the sad fact is that getting up to 'bear witness' of Christ and then doing everything but bearing witness of Christ is just pathetic and wrong..and Members of the Lord's church should do better at it. It's not like they haven't been taught and taught. And if they read their scriptures, they know what 'testimony' is and should be able to do it correctly.

CFR. Were's the formula for testimony baring laid out in scripture?

I know... Maybe we should join the Catholics and start reciting the Lords prayer at every meeting?

There is no "CORRECT WAY" to bare a testimony, its a complete Myth.

There is a correct way, as proscribed by those in authority to decide the policy. If you have an issue with the apostles getting their callings, which includes their ability to make such calls, take it up with the Lord, and with yourself if you continue to raise your hands in support of the prophet and apostles.

[jwhitlock]

So, for the last 20 years or so we are in what Pres. Packer would call a 'course correction'. Our Apostles and other church leaders are trying to teach the members how to bear 'pure testimony'--some listen, understand their reasons for it and try to follow the counsel, but others go on their merry way, ignoring the point of the meeting and rejecting any counsel on their responsibility if they choose to get up.

I think there are some good general guidelines that should be followed:

If you're up there for more than 5 minutes, you better have a real good reason for doing so.

If you're making political statements - or other statements intended to introduce contention - then write a letter to the editor.

If you're condemning someone, haranguing, finding fault, then the Spirit has most likely left - and you should leave also.

If you're only up there making jokes, then you should find another venue to polish your routine.

If you're bringing your kid up there and whispering to them what to say, don't be surprised if the rest of us check out.

If people are glazing over in the congregation - and you really should try to make at least some eye contact to figure this out - it's time to close up.

If all you want to do is catch people up on the latest news about your family, do it on Facebook.

If you're into speculating about the latest bizarre theory that has only the slimmest relationships to any kind of gospel topic, you might be better suited for a Pentecostal congregation.

And I'm sure there are others that could be added. It's all just common sense, coupled with some sincere humility in approaching the pulpit with the mandate to bear testimony of Christ.

[alter idem]

CFR. Were's the formula for testimony baring laid out in scripture?

I know... Maybe we should join the Catholics and start reciting the Lords prayer at every meeting?

There is no "CORRECT WAY" to bare a testimony, its a complete Myth.

If you know what a 'testimony' is, then you know how to bear one.

The scriptures say; 'declare the things which ye have heard, and verily believe, and know to be true." D&C 80:4

Some of my favorite testimonies in the scriptures are;

Job 19:25-27 "For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth.."

Alma 36:25-28 "And I know that he will raise me up at the last day, to dwell with him in glory, and I will praise him forever.."

Acts 26:22-24 Paul bearing testimony before King Agrippa to which he answered "almost thou persuadeth me to be a Christian".

We have a duty to bear testimony like no other believer can. We have the true gospel of Jesus Christ and we have the Gift of the Holy Ghost...why do some hide it under a 'bushel' (or a thanktimony or travelogue?). When we use testimony meeting for stories and travelogues we are not allowing the spirit to be able to testify of what we know is true and of value and spiritually edifying for others--to testify of Jesus Christ. You are not facilitating the spirit in testifying if you are not saying things that the spirit can testify of.

If you want a formula for what the spirit testifies of--they can be found in the first four questions of the temple recommend interview. That is why they are the first four questions.

Also, Fast&Testimony meeting is an opportunity for members to be missionaries--to tell others of their own faith and belief and help the spirit to be able to convert. I think most members want to be able to do this, but if they don't, they have their agency and they can continue to say what they feel like when they get up. But don't think that some of us, who know the true purpose of the meeting, aren't disappointed when we feel cheated from what might have been.

If you don't know how a 'testimony' is borne, then please read Elder Ballard's talk on pure testimony and then you'll know;

http://www.lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,23-1-479-14,00.html

[Jeff K.]

Amazing how two people can give the same Sunday School lesson, and yet the spirit will manifest different things. Amazing how two people can bear their testimony regarding the truthfulness and the gospel and this being the Lords own church, and yet those who hear it will note different things.

Those who don't hear the spirit will always claim they hear the same thing. Those who have a spirit as a companion, will not.

[Mortal Man]

So, in your view, there is only one remaining "Mormon freedom" -- the "freedom" to hijack Fast and Testimony meeting -- and it's in danger of disappearing.

The Last Mormon Freedom, like The Last Human Freedom, cannot be extinguished.

Then it's high time they repented.

I'll be sure to pass that along.

There is no such thing as "the standard testimony." You made that up.

Sadly no, I didn't have to.

The most important being that it was not a testimony.

In order for this statement to make any sense, a testimony must first be properly defined, which would contradict your previous statement.

Please make up your mind.

It is not for telling stories.

I like stories.

The woman's 'testimony' was not a testimony and it was inappropriate for a fast and testimony meeting.

I'm pretty sure she'd disagree with you.

No wonder they feel they need to teach your ward the proper bearing of testimony.

If there is no "standard testimony," then how can it be properly borne?

Please coordinate with Pahoran and come back when you've got your story straight.

.

.

.

Let me see if I follow the arguments thus far:

1) The spirit is an extremely tenuous thing, easily dissipated by a stray comment.

2) I have no control over my own spiritual experience; rather, I'm entirely at the mercy of defective ward members.

3) Under no circumstances should anyone express themselves.

4) "Getting up there and saying what you want to" is strictly forbidden. I assume this means that "getting up there and saying what you don't want to" is encouraged.

5) Although the Rameumptom speech appears to epitomize proper testimony bearing, it nevertheless is not to be followed for reasons that remain unclear.

6) Regardless of what your "personal feelings" may suggest, the spirit is only present if Pahoran and alter idem say it is.

[Jeff K.]

Mortal man, you forgot the points you and others like you raised....

You forgot the additional points you raised that support your view.

1-Don't listen to the prophet and apostles

2-Be as inappropriate as you want, share anything, as long as you say its spiritual, everyone else will have to accept it.

3-The bishop has no authority in regards to how to conduct a fast and testimony meeting, ignore him.

[Mortal Man]

Mortal man, you forgot the points you and others like you raised....

You forgot the additional points you raised that support your view.

1-Don't listen to the prophet and apostles

2-Be as inappropriate as you want, share anything, as long as you say its spiritual, everyone else will have to accept it.

3-The bishop has no authority in regards to how to conduct a fast and testimony meeting, ignore him.

CFR where I have ever said any of those things.

Let me ask you this, what exactly does it mean to "invite the spirit"?

Does it mean that the speaker says something very familiar to you, which you already agree with?

Does it mean that he uses a deep resonant voice, which arouses feelings of well being?

Does it mean that he delivers time-honored church phrases in a non-threatening manner?

On the flip side, what exactly does it mean to "quell the spirit"?

Does the spirit vanish when you hear something unfamiliar, which you're not sure you agree with?

Does the spirit leave if the speaker is nervous or has a squeaky voice?

Does the spirit leave if someone relates a personal experience that challenges your world view?

Which is better for the spirit: comfortable/familiar or new/complex?

[Jeff K.]

In this thread:

Bishops have said there is a proper way to bear testimonies.

Apostles and prophets have said there is a proper way you should bear your testimony.

You have argued against them, which pretty much here:

Mortal man, you forgot the points you and others like you raised....

You forgot the additional points you raised that support your view.

1-Don't listen to the prophet and apostles

2-Be as inappropriate as you want, share anything, as long as you say its spiritual, everyone else will have to accept it.

3-The bishop has no authority in regards to how to conduct a fast and testimony meeting, ignore him.

Note also that your key argument is that if someone claims the spirit they should be able to say what they want, even if everyone else feels uncomfortable with it.

Read the thread and understand that your position would need to be exactly as I have stated.

[Jeff K.]

Let me ask you this, what exactly does it mean to "invite the spirit"?

Does it mean that the speaker says something very familiar to you, which you already agree with?

Does it mean that he uses a deep resonant voice, which arouses feelings of well being?

Does it mean that he delivers time-honored church phrases in a non-threatening manner?

Not necessarily.

Personal testimony is the foundation of our faith. It is the binding power that makes The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints unique in the lives of its members, as compared with all other religious denominations of the world. The doctrine of the Restoration is glorious in and of itself, but the thing that makes it powerful and imbues it with great meaning is the personal testimonies of Church members worldwide who accept the Restoration of the gospel and strive to live its teachings every day of their lives.

A testimony is a witness or confirmation of eternal truth impressed upon individual hearts and souls through the Holy Ghost, whose primary ministry is to testify of truth, particularly as it relates to the Father and the Son. When one receives a testimony of truth through this divinely appointed process, it immediately begins to have impact on that person

[Scott Lloyd]

Hello Scott...

About the "ward family." As a widow, 69 years old, no children, living alone in the wilds of the beautiful central Oregon coast, let me tell you about my ward "family." These are the men and women who have come to my aid with love and charity on numerous occasions when my budget would not allow the freedom to call in outside help.

These are my ward sisters who signed up to come and "babysit" me 24-7 after knee replacement surgery, or to bring in meals so I wouldn't have to cook...

these are those who mourned with me when my dear husband died so unexpectedly... who comforted me... were available to talk if I was hurting in the middle of a lonely night.

These are the members who include me in their holiday family get togethers so that I don't have to be alone.

"Ward family" may not be official, but I am oh so thankful for mine... I could not have made it without them after my recent surgery, and, I try to give of myself to other members when needed...

GG

This is all commendable, of course. But it seems to me it is not dependent on any "ward family" concept. That is, as the covenant people of God, Church members ought to be willing to assist one another regardless of who belongs to which ecclesiastical unit, rather like the lesson to be drawn from the parable of the Good Samaritan: Your "nabor" is anyone in your field of experience who needs help you can offer.

[Scott Lloyd]

I think there are some good general guidelines that should be followed:

...

And I'm sure there are others that could be added. It's all just common sense, coupled with some sincere humility in approaching the pulpit with the mandate to bear testimony of Christ.

This post gets my nomination for best of thread.

[Zakuska]

If you know what a 'testimony' is, then you know how to bear one.

The scriptures say; 'declare the things which ye have heard, and verily believe, and know to be true." D&C 80:4

Some of my favorite testimonies in the scriptures are;

Job 19:25-27 "For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth.."

Alma 36:25-28 "And I know that he will raise me up at the last day, to dwell with him in glory, and I will praise him forever.."

Acts 26:22-24 Paul bearing testimony before King Agrippa to which he answered "almost thou persuadeth me to be a Christian".

We have a duty to bear testimony like no other believer can. We have the true gospel of Jesus Christ and we have the Gift of the Holy Ghost...why do some hide it under a 'bushel' (or a thanktimony or travelogue?). When we use testimony meeting for stories and travelogues we are not allowing the spirit to be able to testify of what we know is true and of value and spiritually edifying for others--to testify of Jesus Christ. You are not facilitating the spirit in testifying if you are not saying things that the spirit can testify of.

If you want a formula for what the spirit testifies of--they can be found in the first four questions of the temple recommend interview. That is why they are the first four questions.

Also, Fast&Testimony meeting is an opportunity for members to be missionaries--to tell others of their own faith and belief and help the spirit to be able to convert. I think most members want to be able to do this, but if they don't, they have their agency and they can continue to say what they feel like when they get up. But don't think that some of us, who know the true purpose of the meeting, aren't disappointed when we feel cheated from what might have been.

If you don't know how a 'testimony' is borne, then please read Elder Ballard's talk on pure testimony and then you'll know;

http://www.lds.org/c.../talk/display/0,5232,23-1-479-14,00.html

So you really think these are "Testimonies"?

Personaly I prefer Nephis Travelmony interspersed with Breif excerpts about the Lord Jesus Christ, over any of Elder Ballards bloviations ten ways to sunday.

If we follow what Elder Balards suggests. 90% of the prophet in the scriptures would be ex-communicated. Heck Joseph Smith himself wouldn't meet Elder Ballards expectation of what a "REAL" testimony baring session was. Sorry if Im not impressed.

[Zakuska]

There is a correct way, as proscribed by those in authority to decide the policy. If you have an issue with the apostles getting their callings, which includes their ability to make such calls, take it up with the Lord, and with yourself if you continue to raise your hands in support of the prophet and apostles.

Oh so now being critical of something some how makes you a hypocrit for sustaining someone as a prophet that you don't bow down, and cow toe the line and worship the ground they walk on? Since when?

[Zakuska]

I think there are some good general guidelines that should be followed:

If you're up there for more than 5 minutes, you better have a real good reason for doing so.

If you're making political statements - or other statements intended to introduce contention - then write a letter to the editor.

If you're condemning someone, haranguing, finding fault, then the Spirit has most likely left - and you should leave also.

If you're only up there making jokes, then you should find another venue to polish your routine.

If you're bringing your kid up there and whispering to them what to say, don't be surprised if the rest of us check out.

If people are glazing over in the congregation - and you really should try to make at least some eye contact to figure this out - it's time to close up.

If all you want to do is catch people up on the latest news about your family, do it on Facebook.

If you're into speculating about the latest bizarre theory that has only the slimmest relationships to any kind of gospel topic, you might be better suited for a Pentecostal congregation.

And I'm sure there are others that could be added. It's all just common sense, coupled with some sincere humility in approaching the pulpit with the mandate to bear testimony of Christ.

Pretty good suggestions... but... on a couple... it would have to say... From my experience of the few times standing up at the pulpit... the congregation is usually Glazed over or half asleep already anyways.

[notHagoth7]

This is all commendable, of course. But it seems to me it is not dependent on any "ward family" concept. That is, as the covenant people of God, Church members ought to be willing to assist one another regardless of who belongs to which ecclesiastical unit, rather like the lesson to be drawn from the parable of the Good Samaritan: Your "nabor" is anyone in your field of experience who needs help you can offer.

But Scott, who here is claiming that the two paradigms are mutually exclusive?

Not everything is a dichotomy.

[SeattleGhostWriter]

A simple testimony can be a causation by an act of faith. Here would be a prime example I would have done at F&T -

Testimony of experiencing the joys of parenting and fatherhood - a rite and privilege that I have not enjoyed even though I have three children of my own, two of which that I am not sure where they are located at (and have recently discovered are possibly members of the church as well).

Testimony of the power of tithing, faith and prayer in that my wife and I are relying solely on my unemployment benefits, the inability for me not being able to find a job because of the labor rich market, the concern and worry about asking the Church to help out with rent, or ask her father to help out with rent. When we both talked, prayed, and believed, my wife gets a check in the mail as an overpayment for medical services. Our rent is paid and caught up.

These are what testimonies are to be about. Spiritual experiences.

A prodigal coming back to the church and praying over the book of Mormon and receiving a testimony of that.

A sister who felt impressed to call upon another sister and invite her out to lunch and the testimony of companionship and sisterhood within the church.

Testimonies on the challenges of parenting and family home evening and making the sacrifices to accomplish FHE and the blessings revolved around it.

Testimonies are to be a faith promoting experience that we share to encourage one another.

[Fiannan]

On my mission in Russia, the most dreaded day of the month was F&T meeting, especially if you had investigators. Travelogues, movie and book reviews, long-winded recollections on vague topics, cute little quotes from pentecostal pamphlets, bizarre diversions on the topic of cosmic intelligence or Japanese scientists insulting bottles of water which results in the liquid becoming cloudy, put downs and airing of grievances, you name it.

You were there for two years and still could not get used to the Russian spirit? One thing I really like about Russians is that they are quite spiritualistic, which leaves them open to the Gospel -- unlike Swedes for example who are pretty clueless on any issues that require abstract thought and individual innitiative.

[Fiannan]

So you really think these are "Testimonies"?

Personaly I prefer Nephis Travelmony interspersed with Breif excerpts about the Lord Jesus Christ, over any of Elder Ballards bloviations ten ways to sunday.

If we follow what Elder Balards suggests. 90% of the prophet in the scriptures would be ex-communicated. Heck Joseph Smith himself wouldn't meet Elder Ballards expectation of what a "REAL" testimony baring session was. Sorry if Im not impressed.

If we wind up making too big an issue out of how to do a testimony we risk insulting the spirit -- if that person is indeed being inspired to give a certain message, and we jump on them, we are then commiting a serious sin since it would be the spirit we are questioning.

[Redefined]

If we wind up making too big an issue out of how to do a testimony we risk insulting the spirit -- if that person is indeed being inspired to give a certain message, and we jump on them, we are then commiting a serious sin since it would be the spirit we are questioning.

I agree with this statement, and it is the position I am trying to point out as well.

Is the testimony for the purpose of the congregation it is being borne to or is it for the purpose of the bearer? Well, my understanding is that it would be both that gain from the testimony (technicalities asside), but at the same time a person's own testimony is a far greater benefit for themselves to be sharing. Ever consider that maybe the problem lies with the listener, not opening up to allow the spirit to flow in maybe for things like being hung up on technicalities?

Edited for spelling

[nicolasconnault]

I don't really understand why this thread has got that many responses, and generated so much controversy. The topic is pretty simple, the general authorities have taught some principles and all members (not just bishoprics) are expected to follow through if they want the best experiences out of their sacrament meetings. If they prefer to hold on to more "traditional" but less effective F&T meetings, that's up to them, but they're missing out on more spiritual meetings. When I give my testimony, I always share my feelings about Jesus Christ and specific principles of the gospel, with or without examples from my own life. I think we often underestimate the powerful effect which a simple testimony on faith, repentance, sabbath day attendance or the atonement can have on listeners.

Basics work best.

[Jeff K.]

Oh so now being critical of something some how makes you a hypocrit for sustaining someone as a prophet that you don't bow down, and cow toe the line and worship the ground they walk on? Since when?

I have never considered following the prophets counsel or the Lords as bowing down and kowtowing? To each his own I guesss. "shrug".

The apostles have been very clear as to what they want for testimony meetings, the bishops have been very clear as to what they want for testimony meetings.

Both have authority over testimony meetings. In other words it is both their right and their responsibility to set the procedure and policy. One can ignore them if they choose to.

What is so complicated about that?