The Last Mormon Freedom

[Zakuska]

I am amazed at how many people interpret simple counsel as some kind of dictatorial methodology. What in the heck is wrong with letting people know how they can better get and give the spirit in a meeting? Those who are disputing this so hotly surely have experienced those who add nothing to the spirit of the meeting and in fact detract from it. I've certainly taken the counsel to heart and make sure that I am using the time to bear true testimony of something I've learned as a result of an experience and not just telling a story about where I've been.

According to JeffK and M. Russel Ballard you aren't supposed to tell stories or experiences. You're just spose to shout praises to God and Jesus. And tell everyone how great they are.

[JarMan]

Every church has loonies. But for some reason Mormons have set aside one Sunday each month to prominently display them in all of their looney-hood to the rest of the ward and to any inactives or non-members who may happen to be there.

[nicolasconnault]

According to JeffK and M. Russel Ballard you aren't supposed to tell stories or experiences. You're just spose to shout praises to God and Jesus. And tell everyone how great they are.

That's a blatant lie. Why do you do it?

[selek]

That's a blatant lie. Why do you do it?

I think Jar man answered your question before you asked it, Nicolas.

I would like to thank certain members of the board for the hours of entertainment they've provided to bitter apostates.

The OP was an attempt by a bitter, contemptuous, heckler to cheerlead a little Church dissension, pride, and wounded vanity- and to stir up more of the same here.

He got his wish.

You should be proud of how well you danced to his lute.

The problem of people hijacking Fast and Testimony meetings to suit their own agendas( be it pride, fringe political theories, nannying, or ark-steadying) has been with us for a very long time.

J Golden Kimball commented on it more than once.

The problem will remain-

the question for us is how we deal with it.

Do we respond with patience and Christ-like charity, and submit to the counsel of a common judge in Zion?

Or do we snarl and bicker like unruly dogs, throwing out spurious charges of unrighteous dominion and persecution?

Babylon is watching you- and taking great glee in your contention, your bickering, and your foolish partisanship.

They are greatly enjoying the spectacle for which they have paid- so, by all means, play on!

[Capt Moroni]

F&T meetings are my favorite Sundays at church. Yes, you have your every fast sunday participant. I agree with you on how members have this mentality that if it isn't from the LDS church, it isn't valid. As members of the church we don't have an exculsive on the Spirit of God.

I will go as far as to say that those that sit in judgement of others, or seem self righteous have not truly been converted to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

my input..

[Deborah]

I will go as far as to say that those that sit in judgement of others,

To whom are you referring? The appointed judges in Israel, ie Bishops, or the unhappy members who misinterpret every piece of counsel as a step toward more control?

[Mortal Man]

The whole Irony of this thread is people are complaining about parents whispering testimonies in childrens ears yet these SAME people are 100% A-OK with Apostles of God holding Adults hands up to the pulpit and dictating what is and isn't appropriate to be said in a Testimony meeting.

Excellent post Zak. You've hit the nail on the head.

Shall we take your silence as consent, and that you are declaring "The Last Mormon Freedom" -- all with capitals, no less -- to be the "freedom" to hijack Fast and Testimony meeting at whim?

You may take my silence to mean that I have other things to do besides 3 Ne. 14:6.

You may answer "yes" or "no."

Have you stopped beating your wife?

Just like your assertion can be disproved by attending a well-regulated Fast and Testimony meeting.

I can see that you find comfort and security in "well-regulated" F&T meetings. If that inspires you to get up and bear your testimony then so be it.

Would you like me to ask Elder Ballard to come whisper in your ear to help you know what to say?

I am somewhat heartened that a thread can so devolve without any help from yours truly.

Hey consig, glad you dropped by.

Fast and testimony meetings then naturally become the last bastion where the saints meet, that a saint can freely say what is on his or her mind and open up as to what is in his or her heart.

Or Elder Ballard's heart in Pahoran's case.

"I know the Church is true. I know Joseph Smith was a prophet. I know Jesus is the Christ. I know the Book of Mormon is true. Amen."

Hang on, let me write this down, I think Pahoran can use it.

Is this a forum for members to whine and winge, or to discuss LDS-related topics? In many of these posts there is a clear spirit of apostasy, I'm glad there are many posters like Pahoran who have the guts to state things as they are.

Thanks nicolas, for making me smile after a long hard day.

The OP was an attempt by a bitter, contemptuous, heckler to cheerlead a little Church dissension, pride, and wounded vanity- and to stir up more of the same here.

I did not know that selek. Thanks for sharing.

[consiglieri]

I'm glad there are many posters like Pahoran who have the guts to state things as they are.

Oh, yes.

Thank God for Pahoran.

Where would we be without him telling us how to act and what to believe?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[nicolasconnault]

What a bunch of nutters Anyway, I can't find anything useful to add to this thread so I think I'll go to bed.

[Zakuska]

I think there are some good general guidelines that should be followed:

If you're up there for more than 5 minutes, you better have a real good reason for doing so.

If you're making political statements - or other statements intended to introduce contention - then write a letter to the editor.

If you're condemning someone, haranguing, finding fault, then the Spirit has most likely left - and you should leave also.

If you're only up there making jokes, then you should find another venue to polish your routine.

If you're bringing your kid up there and whispering to them what to say, don't be surprised if the rest of us check out.

If people are glazing over in the congregation - and you really should try to make at least some eye contact to figure this out - it's time to close up.

If all you want to do is catch people up on the latest news about your family, do it on Facebook.

If you're into speculating about the latest bizarre theory that has only the slimmest relationships to any kind of gospel topic, you might be better suited for a Pentecostal congregation.

And I'm sure there are others that could be added. It's all just common sense, coupled with some sincere humility in approaching the pulpit with the mandate to bear testimony of Christ.

I need to add one...

And those of you who are "slow of speech" like Moses, shut your yap and quit wasting the rest of us' nap time.

[Zakuska]

Oh, yes.

Thank God for Pahoran.

Where would we be without him telling us how to act and what to believe?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

A perfect example of what this thread has been about...

[Black Moclips]

Wow, the apostasy is spreading quickly. Only last week our Bishop got up and started his Testimony with a Thankamony. He did eventually get around to the "formula" of course, but it was at the end. I didn't even realize the thin ice he was treading on. But personally, I don't mind the Thankamonies, Weepymonies, Travelmonies, and other "monies" that we can think it. It gives some spice and flavor to the meeting. We used to have this guy who was a schizophrenic get up and wow, he would say some pretty interesting things. Very refreshing in some aspects. Every eyeball was glued to him when he got up, thats for sure. There is also one lady who I believe has a strong evangelical background that gets up and frequently is "overcome", lots of moaning and shaking and uncontrollable crying. She once had to lay on the ground in the middle of her testimony. My boys literally jumped off the pews the first time that happened!

But for all I know, those two interesting individuals could be closer to God than I will ever be. I suspect that is the case.

I'm with Mortal Man and Zak for this one.

[Zakuska]

Wow, the apostasy is spreading quickly. Only last week our Bishop got up and started his Testimony with a Thankamony. He did eventually get around to the "formula" of course, but it was at the end. I didn't even realize the thin ice he was treading on. But personally, I don't mind the Thankamonies, Weepymonies, Travelmonies, and other "monies" that we can think it. It gives some spice and flavor to the meeting. We used to have this guy who was a schizophrenic get up and wow, he would say some pretty interesting things. Very refreshing in some aspects. Every eyeball was glued to him when he got up, thats for sure. There is also one lady who I believe has a strong evangelical background that gets up and frequently is "overcome", lots of moaning and shaking and uncontrollable crying. She once had to lay on the ground in the middle of her testimony. My boys literally jumped off the pews the first time that happened!

But for all I know, those two interesting individuals could be closer to God than I will ever be. I suspect that is the case.

I'm with Mortal Man and Zak for this one.

That is clearly unacceptable "Mormon" behavior.

[nicolasconnault]

I think I know what you refer to as the "formula". I, however, do not use a "formula" in my testimonies, neither do I delve in travelogues, confessions, accusations etc. I just say what I feel about the Saviour and his gospel in 2 or 3 minutes. Every time someone comes after the meeting (not always the same person!) and thanks me for my testimony. I suppose I'm doing something right. At the same time, I realise everyone is at a different spiritual level, so I'm happy to let people testify how they feel. Sometimes they need to be reminded of what the meeting is about, but that should be done privately by the bishop.

[consiglieri]

At the same time, I realise everyone is at a different spiritual level, so I'm happy to let people testify how they feel.

You do realize you are on the slippery slope to apostasy.

[Black Moclips]

That is clearly unacceptable "Mormon" behavior.

I hope and pray that God forgives her for it.

[nicolasconnault]

You do realize you are on the slippery slope to apostasy.

The apostasy I referred to was in relation to criticising the general authorities and bishops. Don't start your own slippery slope

[clairc829]

J Golden Kimball commented on it more than once.

The problem will remain-

the question for us is how we deal with it.

Do we respond with patience and Christ-like charity, and submit to the counsel of a common judge in Zion?

Or do we snarl and bicker like unruly dogs, throwing out spurious charges of unrighteous dominion and persecution?

Babylon is watching you- and taking great glee in your contention, your bickering, and your foolish partisanship.

They are greatly enjoying the spectacle for which they have paid- so, by all means, play on!

Great quote thanks for sharing

The Brethren are trying to teach correct principles, no one is forced to follow but those who do are blessed.

[dblagent007]

The counsel from Church leaders about how to bear a testimony is widely ignored by members, more so, I would say, than any other counsel they have given (except maybe the oral sex taboo from the 80s). In fact, I can recall many Sundays where the Bishop would reiterate the counsel only to have the very next person who stood up give a travelogue or a thankimony. By the time the next month rolled around, the Bishop himself would be back to giving travelogues and thankimonies.

As for me, I think the leaders counsel on this point is clearly not doctrine and represents nothing more than their own fallible opinion on the subject. I always pull this excuse out whenever I need to get out of a bind.

[Deborah]

In fact, I can recall many Sundays where the Bishop would reiterate the counsel only to have the very next person who stood up give a travelogue or a thankimony.

Which goes to show that most people are planning what they will say in their own minds rather than listening to anything else going on, which is what I think the counsel is for: to get us to listen to the spirit and not be so busy with ourselves.

As for me, I think the leaders counsel on this point is clearly not doctrine and represents nothing more than their own fallible opinion on the subject.

Of course it's not doctrine. Why would you call it that. It's counsel to bring a greater spirituality to our meetings. Obvisously some still can't distinguish between doctrine and our practices. To describe it as "fallible" however I think is, just as you imply, using an excuse to not follow the counsel.

I'm still waiting for someone to explain how trying to get members to listen to the spirit and to bear true testimony is somehow infringing on our freedom. The Lord's prophets have always tried to get the people to live better and get more spirituality in their lives. I think some here are reading more into the counsel than was intended and unfortunately the example in the OP demonstrates how caught up people get in their own little agendas rather than doing what the Lord asks.

[Zakuska]

The apostasy I referred to was in relation to criticising the general authorities and bishops. Don't start your own slippery slope

O so Paul can publically Critisize Peter at the Ward Christmas Party and every one is A OK with it just because its in the Bible? Was Paul "on the road to Apostasy"?

[Eric Blob]

Firstly, this thread is hilarious. I think it should be archived.

My opinion is that the testimony guidelines don't take away our freedom. We do have other situations in which we can tell long holiday stories. Every Sunday School lesson, classes should be invited to share spiritual experiences on a particular topic, for example.

[Zakuska]

Firstly, this thread is hilarious. I think it should be archived.

My opinion is that the testimony guidelines don't take away our freedom. We do have other situations in which we can tell long holiday stories. Every Sunday School lesson, classes should be invited to share spiritual experiences on a particular topic, for example.

But according to Elder Ballard we arn't supposed to tell stories when baring testimony on spiritual experiences.

[Scott Lloyd]

But according to Elder Ballard we arn't supposed to tell stories when baring testimony on spiritual experiences.

The quote you provided doesn't sustain that interpretation.

Our testimony meetings need to be more centered on the Savior, the doctrines of the gospel, the blessings of the Restoration, and the teachings of the scriptures. We need to replace stories, travelogues, and lectures with pure testimonies.

And again, the proper verb is bear, not bare.

[Scott Lloyd]

Every Sunday School lesson, classes should be invited to share spiritual experiences on a particular topic, for example.

In fact, the Sunday School gospel doctrine teacher's manuals suggest it.