The Last Mormon Freedom

[SeattleGhostWriter]

You will never see my wife get up and "bear" her testimony. Nor, will she ever pray in a public setting (even if it is just her son, myself and our 6 week old). To her, her testimony is a very real, intimate and private thing that is between her and the Lord. She prays privately, but not vocally when people are present for the same reason.

I remember sitting through a long winded testimony where one gentleman stood up, and when he sat down, there was only enough time for two others to give their testimonies. This was because he bore his testimony for 60 minutes. I do not remember anything from it and was one of those days where I fell asleep (as usual)lol.

Another F&T meeting experience was when a gentleman stood up and shared how he was on the verge of suicide, praying to God to save him when there was a knock at the door. Two missionaries were "tracking" and just happened on his door at this very time. They had given him a Book of Mormon, sat with him, prayed with him (completely clueless to the aversion of tragedy). After the Missionaries left, the young man recounted that he just simply opened the Book of Mormon, read it that whole night, forgetting all his troubles and thoughts of suicide. When he came to Moroni's promise, he knelt in prayer and prayed and felt a power he could not describe overcoming him.

One of the most powerful testimonies was that of my father when he was active in the Church. The Elders' quorum president and my father were called out late at night to a home. My father was gone most of the night and finally came home compeletely exhausted. He related that he had "doubts" as to the power and authority of the Melkesideck priesthood until that night. Apparantly two boys in a junior high school (this was many years ago when I was about 14 or 15 give or minus a couple years) and they had done the "bloody mary" thing with the dark bathroom and mirror. My father said that the Elder's Quorum president and he could feel a pressing darkness over the home, and that they prayed over the home, blessed the home, blessed the family and repeated this throughout the night. My father had subsequently baptized and confirmed the two boys into the Church. Sadly, someone had told my father that this was not an appropriate testimony and offended some people because "Mormon's do not perform exorcisms". My dad has not been back to Church since.

One of the funniest F&T was when someone was getting up and bearing their testimony and someone ripped a good one and it echoed throughout the entire chapel. The person bearing their testimony tried so hard from laughing that he eventually had to give in, apologized and stepped down.

[Zakuska]

My father had subsequently baptized and confirmed the two boys into the Church. Sadly, someone had told my father that this was not an appropriate testimony and offended some people because "Mormon's do not perform exorcisms". My dad has not been back to Church since.

Who ever complained must not have been a returned Missionary. "exorcisms" were a pretty common occurance on my mission. I even participated in 2 on seperate occasions. praying and blessing the afflicted with the priesthood.

[Maya]

I wish everyone would go to bear their testimony. It gets awfully quiet for uncomfortable time sometimes. Thank yous I think are on its palce if many have in a way or an other helped the person. Travell descriptions... I try to be careful in what I say, even if it is a think I suddenly have understod because of reading the internett...

Someone said that she dont feel she can go an bear her testimony, as she has not anythign special to say.... People just dont understand taht it is enough to bear a testimony on Jesus Christ and waht he means to teh person today..

[Eric Blob]

We used to have similar problems in our ward. The meeting would be dominated by females, and some of them would bear there testimonies every month. Some of them would tell a lengthy, personal story each time. I found it interesting, but the GAs wanted these lengthy personal stories to be related at other times, such as Sunday School lessons.

The Bishopric kept reminding us at the beginning of each testimony meeting about how to give appropriate testimonies, and then the person conducting the meeting would usually give the standard testimony "I know God lives and loves me, etc." Now it's getting a lot better than it used to be.

My favourite testimony meeting was at an EFY, when most of the children just gave very basic testimonies, but I felt the spirit really strongly.

[maklelan]

I find activities to be enjoyable, but somewhat superficial.

Getting to know people goes beyond smiling and laughing with them.

But sitting next to them at a lively sacrament meeting doesn't really cross that bridge either.

I wouldn't describe them that way. Not even close.

I was simply referring to some of the more reserved category of people who rarely feel comfortable sharing their feelings.

And the aspect of how difficult it is to share someone's burdens if we, as a ward, don't know what those burdens are.

There's nothing boring about that dynamic - at least not as far as I'm concerned.

Again, the people berating ward members and the bishopric from the fast and testimony pulpit are generally not people who have trouble sharing their feelings.

[maklelan]

Oh I'm quite certain that today's catastrophe will come up at our next bishopric meeting. And when it does, I will gently remind them of my previous advice to let these people have a pressure-release valve or something's going to blow, like it did today.

Which is basically fast and testimony terrorism. Let me have my soapbox or I'll freak out on you again. If fast and testimony is the only opportunity these people have to blow off some steam then they need to take a good hard look at their priorities. And you said you weren't taking sides. The above certainly seems like a firm taking of a side.

For some background, in a previous bishopric meeting wherein we discussed the "asteroid" testimony, I mentioned that I saw nothing wrong with it and, in fact, it was my favorite testimony of the whole meeting. Our second counselor replied, "Oh yeah? You would like that testimony," referring to the fact that she had mentioned my name during her spiel, as someone who supposedly knows about asteroids. I said, "You've got to let people express themselves in their own way. They're going to do it whether you like it or not." This led to a long debate with the final decision that they simply weren't going to stand for it anymore. (sigh)

But this sounds awfully close to "you gotta teach your kids about the right way to have sex, because they're going to do it anyway."

[maklelan]

I have to admit that this whole debate does remind me of "Sam the Eagle" slowly being implemented into the Church. It also stinks to high heaven of Josiahs reforms and consolidating all worship to Salt Lake Centera... er... Jerusalem.

But the alternative kinda stinks of the period of the judges, when no king ruled in Israel and everyone did according to what was right in their own sight.

Who's to say the Spirit isn't moving people to speak about Asteroids etc. etc. etc.?

I know a kid who gets out of trouble by telling his dad that he felt inspired to do stuff that seems to get him into trouble. Smart kid. Dumb dad.

where I have big problems with the Bishops, SPs, or even the GA's messing in stuff like this.

So it's exactly like the period of the judges.

[notHagoth7]

Since when were "travelogues" the same thing as telling about spiritual experiences?

Many journeys are spiritual experiences.

And many spiritual experiences are a journey of some sort.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

On my mission in Russia, the most dreaded day of the month was F&T meeting, especially if you had investigators. Travelogues, movie and book reviews, long-winded recollections on vague topics, cute little quotes from pentecostal pamphlets, bizarre diversions on the topic of cosmic intelligence or Japanese scientists insulting bottles of water which results in the liquid becoming cloudy, put downs and airing of grievances, you name it.

I have to agree with you here.

[Redefined]

Maybe this has been said before. I kinda skimmed through the thread. But, what if the "problem person's" testimony was a help to strengthening anothers, or was the direct cause of turning the investigator into a convert. And say that this person's testimony did something like this every single F/T meeting. Then again, maybe it's fitting that the person experience such persecution amongst their fellow members, because "greater shall be the reward". . . does anybody think that if Jesus were sitting in the congregation, he would have a problem with the testimonies, of the example women given in the OP?

[bluebell]

I can see you do not attend with Bluebell. They said it's been months since a child has given a testimony at their ward.

In true form lingo, you have misrepresented what i actually said, to serve your own end.

What i actually said was-"It's been months if not longer (i don't keep track) since i've seen a parent whispering the testimony to a child."

Honesty when representing the words of someone else should count for something to someone who calls themselves a Christian.

[maklelan]

Maybe this has been said before. I kinda skimmed through the thread. But, what if the "problem person's" testimony was a help to strengthening anothers, or was the direct cause of turning the investigator into a convert. And say that this person's testimony did something like this every single F/T meeting. Then again, maybe it's fitting that the person experience such persecution amongst their fellow members, because "greater shall be the reward". . . does anybody think that if Jesus were sitting in the congregation, he would have a problem with the testimonies, of the example women given in the OP?

The person who introduced me to the gospel was wavering in her testimony when she met me. After a few weeks of getting to know each other I overdosed on drugs and landed in the hospital, which was an experience that strengthened her testimony and ultimately led me to get baptized. That doesn't mean it was the right thing to do.

In addition, characterizing Quorum of the Twelve counsel as "persecution," and trying to contrast it with what Christ would do rather undermines any claim to an appreciation of the purpose of fast and testimony meeting.

[Redefined]

The person who introduced me to the gospel was wavering in her testimony when she met me. After a few weeks of getting to know each other I overdosed on drugs and landed in the hospital, which was an experience that strengthened her testimony and ultimately led me to get baptized. That doesn't mean it was the right thing to do.

In addition, characterizing Quorum of the Twelve counsel as "persecution," and trying to contrast it with what Christ would do rather undermines any claim to an appreciation of the purpose of fast and testimony meeting.

I think it comes down to whether or not one views the examples given in the OP as "inappropriate testimony bearing form" or not. I'm sure it may vary from ward to ward on what is acceptable and what isn't. You seem to be coming from the viewpoint that the examples in the OP are the "wrong-way", because of the comparision you gave with your conclusion, "that doesn't mean it was the right thing to do". It seems that even those in the church are having some questions on what is appropriate. I don't think "Jesus" would find them to be inappropriate. Obviously some may disagree. I guess it's just a matter of preference. I think this is a topic where there isn't a definite right or wrong.

[maklelan]

I think it comes down to whether or not one views the examples given in the OP as "inappropriate testimony bearing form" or not. I'm sure it may vary from ward to ward on what is acceptable and what isn't. You seem to be coming from the viewpoint that the examples in the OP are the "wrong-way", because of the comparision you gave with your conclusion, "that doesn't mean it was the right thing to do". It seems that even those in the church are having some questions on what is appropriate. I don't think "Jesus" would find them to be inappropriate. Obviously some may disagree. I guess it's just a matter of preference. I think this is a topic where there isn't a definite right or wrong.

But the Quorum of the Twelve has repeatedly in General Conference outlined the difference between appropriate and inappropriate topics of discussion during fast and testimony meeting. Are you saying they're just making suggestions applicable only to some wards?

[Redefined]

But the Quorum of the Twelve has repeatedly in General Conference outlined the difference between appropriate and inappropriate topics of discussion during fast and testimony meeting. Are you saying they're just making suggestions applicable only to some wards?

If the person is letting the spirit guide them in the telling of their testimony, then how could it be wrong. I'm sure the consensus might be that the person wasn't letting the spirit guide. . . or something along those lines, but I personally know people that bear their testimonies in the "questionable ways" exampled in the OP, that would disagree that it was anything but spiritually guided.

[maklelan]

If the person is letting the spirit guide them in the telling of their testimony, then how could it be wrong.

I would argue that the public airing of grievances and criticisms of church authorities is generally not an action inspired by the spirit.

I'm sure the consensus might be that the person wasn't letting the spirit guide. . . or something along those lines, but I personally know people that bear their testimonies in the "questionable ways" exampled in the OP, that would disagree that it was anything but spiritually guided.

I am of the opinion, personally, that many of the members of the church who are most vocal about the profundity of their spiritual sensitivity, and most critical of counsel from general authorities that conflicts with that sensitivity, wouldn't know the influence of the spirit if it hit them with a brick.

[Zakuska]

But the alternative kinda stinks of the period of the judges, when no king ruled in Israel and everyone did according to what was right in their own sight.

I know a kid who gets out of trouble by telling his dad that he felt inspired to do stuff that seems to get him into trouble. Smart kid. Dumb dad.

So it's exactly like the period of the judges.

So what exactly are you advocating Makelan? We pull a Josiah and cleans the sanctuary?

Slit the throats of all those who don't toe the line and bare their testimonies like "REAL" Mormons do?

What ever happend to the 11th article of faith?

11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

Parhaps you like Iron fisted Gastopo churchs. I for one do not.

[clairc829]

[size="2"

a lot of members cherish their once-a-month freedom to express themselves in a manner not dictated by the Correlation Committee.

When I first heard the guidelines given for bearing one testimony I didn't like the guidelines. But as I thought about them and listened in testimony meetings, I began to see the wisdom, more people could participate the focus would be more on Christ and his gospel.

I try to follow the guidelines, but I understand that people come from many different experiences and some don't even know the guidelines exist.

In the ward I attend as a service missionary we even have had non-members bear testimony they have been some wonderful meetings. Last Sunday we went 15 minutes overtime, it was a powerful spiritual experience. But even in this wonderful meeting two or three people who spoke probably shouldn't have.

I think Joseph Smith's statement fits the situation we should "teach correct principles and let the members govern themselves". continue to teach and hope someday it all sinks in.

[Mortal Man]

Since when were "travelogues" the same thing as telling about spiritual experiences?

His exact words were "personal experiences," i.e., what happened to us while we were traveling around the neighborhoods.

[maklelan]

So what exactly are you advocating Makelan? We pull a Josiah and cleans the sanctuary?

No, just that we follow the counsel of the Twelve.

Slit the throats of all those who don't toe the line and bare their testimonies like "REAL" Mormons do?

What ever happend to the 11th article of faith?

11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

Parhaps you like Iron fisted Gastopo churchs. I for one do not.

I don't appreciate being compared to Nazis. You know that's not at all what I'm advocating.

[Bsix]

Goodwin's Law...this thread should be over.

Six

[cinepro]

I lived in an urban ward with more than its share of "unusual" people. It got so bad that every month, a different member of Ward leadership was assigned to get up after any "wacky" testimonies and get the meeting back on track. There were even a few people who were specifically told not to get up anymore.

[Zakuska]

I don't appreciate being compared to Nazis. You know that's not at all what I'm advocating.

Personally when the 12 act like this whether Modern Day or of old it reminds me of Josiahs reforms.

Paul resisted Peter to the Face when he and others in the Church were saying the Gentile Chritisians weren't Jewish enough for their tastes, Weren't Easting to the Jewish customs and what not. Its the same thing when Members make comments about the way other members choose to express themselves in Church.

This whole debate it silly.

[Jeff K.]

If the person is letting the spirit guide them in the telling of their testimony, then how could it be wrong. I'm sure the consensus might be that the person wasn't letting the spirit guide. . . or something along those lines, but I personally know people that bear their testimonies in the "questionable ways" exampled in the OP, that would disagree that it was anything but spiritually guided.

A big "if". And one that seems to go against the spirit and authority of those who do have the responsibiltiy to organize this church.

[emeliza]

I find it hard to take the standard counsel about how to share a testimony seriously. It seems that if the counsel was followed, everyone would walk up to the mike and say "I know God lives; I know Jesus is his son, I know JS was a prophet; I know TM is a prophet today; I know the BOM is true," with only minor variations. Not only does this sound like brainwashed tripe, it is about as spiritually uplifting as watching glue dry. Let people explain why they believe these things, asteroids and all.

We have a gentleman in our ward who gets up every month or two and does just this.....and yet the tone of his voice, the way he looks at us, the tears in his eyes......it speaks volumes. He rarely tells anything of his personal experiences when he says these few lines and if he does, it is very impersonal, yet his testimony is really deeply intimate, more so that many other testimonies.

As for our ward, it seems we are doing really well these days. Aside from a few members who have some medical/mental issues we don't really get 'bad' testimonies. I am not sure any testimony is 'bad' anyway, but we only seem to have people over the age of 12 get up and if they are younger, they almost always can say their own and their parents don't even get up with them. We have a few people who get up every month, but they have good things to say. We are generally dominated by men getting up as opposed to women. I have to admit, I am enjoying F&T more now than I have ever before. Even more so, I can't remember why I use to be so worried about it.....