The Last Mormon Freedom

[maklelan]

Part of the dynamic that's playing out here is the whole ward family issue. Where we consider one another actual brothers and sisters, and are willing to share our burdens, challenges, and successes with those who are supposedly willing to bear them with us.

That's part of sacrament meeting that I will miss. I see the reason for it - but it sterilizes/neuters the vibrant social interaction that used to take place in ward meetings. I'll miss it.

There are certainly new places to take such discussions: the phone, in person with a friend or visiting teacher, a web forum like this, facebook, etc. So it's not as if people have no outlets for such things.

Most wards have plenty of activities that involve large portions, if not all, of the congregation. There's no reason to feel the ward family has been abandoned.

It is something, however, that let people bear their souls and be real...for the briefest of moments.

I doubt these "problem" ladies were the ward wallflowers.

Before we each retreated back behind our facades for the next six months.

You must be going to very depressing wards.

Or genuine friends.

Perhaps people who have no compunctions about berating a ward and its bishop from the fast and testimony pulpit lack genuine friends for reasons that lay at their own feet. Certainly not every marginalized member of a ward has been driven to the margins through absolutely no fault of their own.

[maklelan]

I don't recall their exact words, but the bishop and his counselors have referred to certain members in essentially those terms.

This sounds like rhetorical flourish, then.

No, and I'm not taking sides here.

But having participated in many of the bishopric discussions, in which my advice was ignored, I'm just trying to point out that there's a better way of dealing with this.

What have you proposed?

[Mortal Man]

What they probably really need is a therapist.

I have long held that the primary benefit of F&T meeting is to provide group therapy for ward members.

[Deborah]

This has been a long-time battle to try to get the members to understand F&T meeting is to spiritually uplift, not to update the ward on one's activities. Now I'm sure the bishop would have no problem with a very short "story" that had a very specific point in strengthening one's testimony, but unfortunately many of these stories go nowhere. I certainly don't have a problem with stories with a faith promoting message and enjoy them.

After all the admonitions I've heard in our ward about not bringing up young children who can't speak for themselves, today we had a father bring up his young son and whisper in his ear and the child repeat what couldn't be understood and then the father and son just walked off. It's not even as if the father came up to bear his testimony. Other than that we had a very satisfying testimony meeting.

It is a dilemma and the Bishop must walk a fine line between trying to get the message across to make testimony meetings truly uplifting, even for visitors, and not being so dogmatic as to cause hard feelings. Unfortunately those who don't get the message from gentle hints usually just aren't listening or don't care and will continue doing what they do and then take offense when the message gets more direct.

[Mortal Man]

On my mission in Russia, the most dreaded day of the month was F&T meeting, especially if you had investigators. Travelogues, movie and book reviews, long-winded recollections on vague topics, cute little quotes from pentecostal pamphlets, bizarre diversions on the topic of cosmic intelligence or Japanese scientists insulting bottles of water which results in the liquid becoming cloudy, put downs and airing of grievances, you name it.

I had the same experience on my mission, especially in one particular ward with two particular people.

However, I had two other experiences on which I have reflected again and again.

The first was in a testimony meeting during zone conference for which our mission president had given explicit instructions that we were not to recite the usual trite expressions for our testimonies. Rather, we were told to relate one recent spiritual experience and nothing else. He essentially ordered us to deliver travelogues.

It was the best testimony meeting I ever attended.

My second experience was hearing one of our mission president's talks, in which he declared that he would never allow himself to criticize anyone's prayers. He said that a man's prayer is between him and his Creator and no one has any business criticizing anyone's manner of expression when it comes from the heart. I think the same can be said for testimonies.

Also, I should point out that the only reason the inactive lady came back to church was to share her story regarding her nephew.

[Hestia]

And in the spirit of board nannying, I just can't help wondering why folks have to quote the entire OP only to say something that doesn't that nothing to do with addressing that same OP.

Agreed and mods have addressed this before.

[notHagoth7]

Most wards have plenty of activities that involve large portions, if not all, of the congregation. There's no reason to feel the ward family has been abandoned.

I find activities to be enjoyable, but somewhat superficial.

Getting to know people goes beyond smiling and laughing with them.

You must be going to very depressing wards.

I wouldn't describe them that way. Not even close.

I was simply referring to some of the more reserved category of people who rarely feel comfortable sharing their feelings.

And the aspect of how difficult it is to share someone's burdens if we, as a ward, don't know what those burdens are.

There's nothing boring about that dynamic - at least not as far as I'm concerned.

[LeSellers]

And in the spirit of board nannying, I just can't help wondering why folks have to quote the entire OP only to say something that doesn't that nothing to do with addressing that same OP.

Or worse, not quoting anything at all, and expecting the rest of us to figure out what they are responding to and how their comments might possibly fit into the discussion.

At least those who quote the entirety of the catalyst for their own missives have the courtesy to help us see what started their engines.

That said, your point is well made, and it appears to be simple sloth

[Mortal Man]

I come to testimony meeting to hear testimony of the Savior. I come to be edified. I come to feel the Spirit.

So do the "problem" members.

Inasmuch as people who were described in the OP take that time to come up with their own agendas and to speak of things that neither edify nor uplift, they are acting in an inappropriate manner.'

The people I described, as well as several others whose manner of expression is irritating to some, are just as sincere as anybody else. Should they be condemned just because their speech doesn't fit the popular definition of what is edifying and uplifting?

What constitutes bizzare today is nothing compared to what the Kirtland saints did.

[volgadon]

Perhaps people who have no compunctions about berating a ward and its bishop from the fast and testimony pulpit lack genuine friends for reasons that lay at their own feet. Certainly not every marginalized member of a ward has been driven to the margins through absolutely no fault of their own.

Well said. I'm reminded of a F&T at my fiancee's branch, where one of the members got up and said that she wasn't going to talk about how bad this person and that person treated her!!!

[Mortal Man]

I posted these quotes on another message board earlier today but they seem like something Mortal Man might want to slide under the Bishop's door.

Oh I'm quite certain that today's catastrophe will come up at our next bishopric meeting. And when it does, I will gently remind them of my previous advice to let these people have a pressure-release valve or something's going to blow, like it did today.

For some background, in a previous bishopric meeting wherein we discussed the "asteroid" testimony, I mentioned that I saw nothing wrong with it and, in fact, it was my favorite testimony of the whole meeting. Our second counselor replied, "Oh yeah? You would like that testimony," referring to the fact that she had mentioned my name during her spiel, as someone who supposedly knows about asteroids. I said, "You've got to let people express themselves in their own way. They're going to do it whether you like it or not." This led to a long debate with the final decision that they simply weren't going to stand for it anymore. (sigh)

[Jeff K.]

Cal,

I've taught steady in one auxiliary or another for several decades and never had anyone sit in my class - unless they would have anyway (Gospel Doctrine, RS). The entire time I taught seminary, young women's, youth Sunday school, and primary, I never got a "special visitor" to check up on me. And I know I've posted this before but I've been in dozen wards as an adult in a half dozen states. I've never even heard of this happening and I certainly never did it when I was Primary president because I had other responsibilities at the same time as the classes, when I was the RS education counselor I worked with the teachers but I was attending the classes anyway. MnG

I think stake and ward leadership should be attending gospel doctrine and other classes. Too many "hall meetings" go on rather than attending and learning from the very people the Lord called (through his servants), position does not automatically convey knowledge or make gospel doctrine class needless.

IN the past, at times, our Stake President sits in my class, but that is mostly because he has family in our ward and he was visiting. No one felt anything untoward was going on, and I never felt like I was being "checked on". I suppose the key issue isn't whether they are in class, but why they are in class. I think most of the time it is to maintain connection with the ward. I can think of few classes more fun than gospel doctrine to share each others spirits.

[jwhitlock]

So do the "problem" members.

That's debatable. Coming to feel the Spirit and to be edified presupposes a certain level of humility to allow that to happen. Someone pursuing their own agenda in "expressing themselves" would appear to have little regard for the rest of us in the meeting.

The people I described, as well as several others whose manner of expression is irritating to some, are just as sincere as anybody else. Should they be condemned just because their speech doesn't fit the popular definition of what is edifying and uplifting?

Sincerity as an often misapplied term used to justify a course of action that is otherwise inappropriate. Of course, these kinds of public speeches are not troublesome "just because their speech doesn't fit the popular definition". They're troubling because the Spirit doesn't accompany them, and because they simply are not edifying - no definition need be involved, just an observation of the content and delivery.

What constitutes bizzare today is nothing compared to what the Kirtland saints did.

If I recall, correctly, the Kirtland saints needed some correction from time to time, did they not? Why should we be exempt from the same kind of correction today, when we stray outside of the bounds of what is appropriate and uplifting?

[wenglund]

Since I am not a general authority or in the bishopric, I find it best to concern myself less with how others are using F&T meetings, and concentrate instead on what I bring and lend to the services. That way I am more assured to be edified and to come away from the experience without cause for complaint.

I learned this from personally observing president Hunter and Hinckley on several occasions, and also from what family members have told me about these two good men while attending for years the same home ward, in which to the critical eye the F&T meetings would at times take on somewhat of a circus atmosphere, with the flourish of aspiring members and the pulpet pounding of the ark-steadyers vying for the prophet's attention. Regardless of the periodic drama unfolding at the mic, these men remained the picture of respect and spirituality. And, in some cases a faint smile may even have detected (I suppose it helps to have a sense of humor).

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Jeff K.]

I understand the need for individuals to have that opportunity to offer their burdens to others. Perhaps they simply need real friends who will listen and thus diminish their need to offer a confessional or long winded thankamony every month in front of an entire congregation. I think this would be the resolution for some individuals who make F&T a feat of endurance too hard for anyone weak in the faith to endure.

But I can't shake what I saw over the course of 20 years with a certain group of people who were unwittingly allowed to set the tone amongst the congregation through their ability to speak at F&T meetings. It has a culturing effect on the congregation.

mercyngrace makes a good point about teaching correct principles and their eventual adoption as people see good examples. Sometimes this takes a very long time. In the ward I have referenced many families moved away because of concern for their children's future in the church due to the tone set in the ward by certain individuals, not least among them the F&T 'problem' crew. The people who moved were solid but obviously they either felt helpless that their good example would not be enough to overcome the situation, or they simply didn't have the energy to endure it. Obviously the ideal priesthood holder and their family would work to transform the culture of the ward by their example. But it was too overwhelming a task for 3-4 families alone to do. They thus sought refuge in other cities and wards without the problematic individuals, where their gospel endurance was tested more from outside the church than from within. I think the 'problem' people in the F&T meeting also had a negative affect on the types of converts that were attracted to the church and not immediately turned off. Luckily after 20 years of waiting some stalwarts moved in and made a conscious decision to weather the storm and set a powerful enough example to overcome the previously established norm.

Anyways, for the sake of the hundreds of converts and thousands of investigators who passed through the ward over those years I wish there had been a way to keep the 'problem' people at bay. Now that I am old enough to know their effect I associate them with a cancer that would have been far better to eliminate early after its inception given the capacities of the ward members at the time.

Sorry MM if that is too extreme a comment to associate with the people you reference in the OP.

I tend to agree, fast and testimony meeting's goal isn't about "being real". Its about bearing your testimony or it better terms witnessing to the truthfulness of the gospel. Its not about your recent vacation, hospital trip, family tree, or other such travelogue. Now there is a sister in our ward who suffers from some emotional or mental tribulation, not so much in a bad way, but she invariably gets up to bear her testimony every fast and testimony Sunday, and the only way she can do it is to make a fairy tale like story out of some biblical story (she starts out "once upon a time....). I appreciate that she is doing the best that she can to bear her testimony, and that her message is specifically for the small children in the ward (they actually grow quiet and listen). I suppose it comes to the question of best intentions more than what is said and done. Some, like this dear sister, do not know better and do the best they can with the ability they have. Most cognizant people, ie most people... know better.

[dblagent007]

I find it hard to take the standard counsel about how to share a testimony seriously. It seems that if the counsel was followed, everyone would walk up to the mike and say "I know God lives; I know Jesus is his son, I know JS was a prophet; I know TM is a prophet today; I know the BOM is true," with only minor variations. Not only does this sound like brainwashed tripe, it is about as spiritually uplifting as watching glue dry. Let people explain why they believe these things, asteroids and all.

[volgadon]

Let people explain why they believe these things, asteroids and all.

If only they did so.

[Deborah]

And, in some cases a faint smile may even have detected (I suppose it helps to have a sense of humor).

Indeed. I'm sure that God has to have a sense of humor when he looks at some of the things we do.

[Lizarian]

I say let the interesting and entertaining testimonies remain. It keeps me awake during the meeting.

[Lizarian]

I find it hard to take the standard counsel about how to share a testimony seriously. It seems that if the counsel was followed, everyone would walk up to the mike and say "I know God lives; I know Jesus is his son, I know JS was a prophet; I know TM is a prophet today; I know the BOM is true," with only minor variations. Not only does this sound like brainwashed tripe, it is about as spiritually uplifting as watching glue dry. Let people explain why they believe these things, asteroids and all.

Here! Here! When they said that thing about sticking to a standard script, I thought...oh Brethren. I like the stories and the experiences. Sometimes those are the bits that help MY testimony, not just the rehash regarding TSM and JS.

[fahayeklives]

I say let the interesting and entertaining testimonies remain. It keeps me awake during the meeting.

LOL. I don't fall asleep but I do enjoy listening to how people come by their testimony through experiences. I guess I am lucky because in my ward we haven't had any of the issues already mentioned in this thread. Sure, some people go on slight tangents but its nothing egregious.

[rockslider]

Heck, just extent the brilliant idea of handing out General Conference talks to be spoon feed for sacrament meeting talks. Cut the testimony portions of various talks out, leave a stack of them at the pupil and instruct the ward that they must use the provided testimonies.

[handys003]

This is what a testimony is:

Testimony

A testimony is a spiritual witness given by the Holy Ghost. The foundation of a testimony is the knowledge that Heavenly Father lives and loves His children; that Jesus Christ lives, that He is the Son of God, and that He carried out the infinite Atonement; that Joseph Smith is the prophet of God who was called to restore the gospel; that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Savior's true Church on the earth; and that the Church is led by a living prophet today. With this foundation, a testimony grows to include all principles of the gospel.

Additional Information

Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have the sacred opportunity and responsibility to obtain their own testimonies. Having obtained a testimony, each member has a duty to nurture it throughout life. Happiness in this life and throughout eternity depends largely on whether individuals are "valiant in the testimony of Jesus" (D&C 76:79; see also D&C 76:51, 74, 101). Testimony grows through the application of the following principles:

The quest for a testimony begins with a righteous, sincere desire. Speaking to a group of people who did not yet have testimonies of the gospel, Alma taught: "If ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words" (Alma 32:27).

Testimony comes through the quiet influence of the Holy Ghost. The results of a testimony can be miraculous and life changing, but the gift of testimony usually comes as a quiet assurance, without spectacular displays of God's power. Even Alma, who had been visited by an angel and had seen God sitting on His throne, needed to fast and pray so he could receive a testimony through the power of the Holy Ghost (see Alma 5:45

[Zakuska]

I have to admit that this whole debate does remind me of "Sam the Eagle" slowly being implemented into the Church. It also stinks to high heaven of Josiahs reforms and consolidating all worship to Salt Lake Centera... er... Jerusalem.

Who's to say the Spirit isn't moving people to speak about Asteroids etc. etc. etc.?

Thats where I have big problems with the Bishops, SPs, or even the GA's messing in stuff like this.

[Calm]

Rather, we were told to relate one recent spiritual experience and nothing else. He essentially ordered us to deliver travelogues.

Since when were "travelogues" the same thing as telling about spiritual experiences?