Who is Rodney Meldrum and whats all the hubub about?

[sethpayne]

I just noticed this one. It illustrates pretty well my chief problem with some of the Meldrumites: Their hostile eagerness to attack fellow believers.

Meldrumites? Seriously? Are people who hold to a LGT called FAIRites or FARMites?

In any case, it appears that hostility towards fellow believers goes both ways.

[David Bokovoy]

Meldrumites? Seriously? Are people who hold to a LGT called FAIRites or FARMites?

In any case, it appears that hostility towards fellow believers goes both ways.

FARMers and FAIRers to be precise. And remember, the Meldrumites drew first blood.

[volgadon]

Seth, I think meldrumites refers to those following Meldrum specifically, rather than those who aren't proponents of the LGT. Personally, I've yet to make my mind up as to whether or not the BoM should be placed in an LGT or indeed where. Medlrum's book though sounds like very poor scholar with a side helping of unsavoury politics.

[juliann]

Meldrumites? Seriously? Are people who hold to a LGT called FAIRites or FARMites?

If you aren't going to call me Nemesis anymore I prefer FAIRie. Thanks much!

[Calm]

If you aren't going to call me Nemesis anymore I prefer FAIRie. Thanks much!

I call dibs on FAIRmaiden.

[juliann]

In any case, it appears that hostility towards fellow believers goes both ways.

Could you please point out where the hostililty is? Putting Allen's comments next to Meldrum's comments for comparison would be helpful.

[volgadon]

If you aren't going to call me Nemesis anymore I prefer FAIRie. Thanks much!

I was going to post that, but then it sounded really mean.

[juliann]

I was going to post that, but then it sounded really mean.

What, FAIRies? Nah....that's my favorite.

[sethpayne]

Could you please point out where the hostililty is? Putting Allen's comments next to Meldrum's comments for comparison would be helpful.

Sure.

Mr. Meldrum

[notHagoth7]

What, FAIRies? Nah....that's my favorite.

I believe in fairies.

I even have an LGT for them - and will draw first blood with any who disagree.

(Kidding on the first blood part).

[Daniel Peterson]

Meldrumites? Seriously? Are people who hold to a LGT called FAIRites or FARMites?

No, not seriously. Just a shorthand. On a message board. If you would prefer the formula "those believing Latter-day Saints who are persuaded by the speeches and DVDs and writings of Mr. Rodney Meldrum on the geography, archaeology, and genetics of the Book of Mormon, identify strongly with his position on those matters, and advocate it forcefully," you're welcome to use that mode of expression. I claim no copyright on it.

In any case, it appears that hostility towards fellow believers goes both ways.

I haven't heard anybody at either FAIR or FARMS (better, the Maxwell Institute) describe those believing Latter-day Saints who are persuaded by the speeches and DVDs and writings of Mr. Rodney Meldrum on the geography, archaeology, and genetics of the Book of Mormon, identify strongly with his position on those matters, and advocate it forcefully as a danger to the Church, rebels against the Brethren, seeking control of the Church, disloyal to Joseph Smith, or any of the several similar descriptions that have recently been applied to me and some of my friends by a faction of those believing Latter-day Saints who are persuaded by the speeches and DVDs and writings of Mr. Rodney Meldrum on the geography, archaeology, and genetics of the Book of Mormon, identify strongly with his position on those matters, and advocate it forcefully as a danger to the Church.

[juliann]

Sure.

Notice that Meldrum only "presents himself" as a researcher. Regardless of whether we agree with his conclusions or not, Meldrum has done research and thus, is a researcher.

It said presents himself as a researcher WHO..... I think you cut off an important distinction there. I also notice you didn't include any Meldrum attacks for comparison.

Now, I have not read Meldrum but from the comments on this board and on the videos I have watched on youtube, I have not been given the impression that Muldrum sets things up as "proof." Does Meldrum ever use the word "proof?" Also, does Meldrum make the claim that these things have "somehow escaped prophets, leaders etc...." or is he simply offering up a theory which he is excited about? Seems like the rhetoric used here is intentionally meant to poison the well.

I zoned out on this stuff a long time ago but if I recall, he repeatedly claims he has THE TRUTH that everyone else has missed. I'm willing place bets that he uses "proof".

So one has to be "unfamiliar" with certain facts in order to accept Meldrum's ideas. It seems to me that the same thing is said about FARMS and FAIR by Book of Mormon skeptics like Thomas Murphy and Michael Coe -- two individual who are quite familiar with "DNA science, population genetics, and the historical facts."

Thomas Murphy? Come on. That is why FAIR uses scholars who actually specialize in the specific science they are talking about when it gets that technical. That is why FARMS put up three nationally accredited scientists to counter Murphy's partial literature review and why the debate immediately went silent. Metcalfe published a few petulant swipes in Dialogue and that was the end of the rebuttal.

So FAIR only supports theories that are supported by literature (both LDS and scientific) and experts? It seems to me that FAIR is holding Meldrum to a higher standard than they hold themselves.

Last I heard from FAIR there are about 70 different theories out there. And of course FAIR is going to use the most informed people available. And it's not like there are a lot of them or that they are difficult to round up. But that does mean there has to be some formal training in there somewhere.

I think accusation is based on a private email where Meldrum expresses that he feels inspired to do this work etc.... I could be way off base. In any case, this is quite an accusation to be made publicaly against a fellow believer, IMO.

As I understand it there were many, many conversations with Meldrum before anything was ever said. There have also been quite a few who have attended his presentations. There is also a website with fervid testimonies....which I find the most shocking. And when you send a group email to potential "supporters" it's contents aren't exactly private anymore.

I would like to meet a non-LDS scholar who doesn't see FARMS and FAIR models as "[planting] erroneous concepts and expectations in the minds of [readers]."

Didn't you present at CGU or am I thinking of someone else? There are a lot of non-LDS scholars there who don't see religion as an exercise in polemics. In fact, it offends them.

In any case, I see Meldrum as a well-intentioned brother who is excited about his Book of Mormon model. I say give the guy a break. If he helps people come closer to Christ through the Book of Mormon, then God bless him. Who cares if his model is problematic. Any BoM geography is going to be problematic.

I don't think it is the geography that is the problem. That is just the spin to avoid examination. Do you really think that anyone involved in reviewing this wasn't fully aware of the hullabaloo that would result? Yet they obviously thought it was better to take some hits than let this go unquestioned. I am certain that if you spent any time at all looking at his mangled use of scholarship you would have some problems with what he is putting up as THE TRUTH.

But regardless of how awful the eevuhl people have been to Meldrum his response has not been consistent with what he claims to represent and to have. It's one thing to throw rocks on message boards but to put such juvenile flailing attacks in a book is not going to sit well with a lot of Mormons who do expect those presenting testimonies to comport themselves appropriately. All the "you did it first" in the world isn't going to help him on that...as evidenced by the number of Mormons who come here to lecture on appropriate Mormonish behavior.

Just for the record, if I had to pick a model myself, I would go with Mesoamerica.

I just plain don't care but I'm not about to go with anybody who has a testimony of one and who quit his job to make a living from bearing it.

[sethpayne]

It said presents himself as a researcher WHO..... I think you cut off an important distinction there. I also notice you didn't include any Meldrum attacks for comparison.

I'm unwilling to spend money on his materials. If anyone wants to loan me a copy, I'd be grateful. Maybe it is exactly as Allan has described.

I zoned out on this stuff a long time ago but if I recall, he repeatedly claims he has THE TRUTH that everyone else has missed. I'm willing place bets that he uses "proof".

Ok.... and if he does, then I'm with you.

As I understand it there were many, many conversations with Meldrum before anything was ever said. There have also been quite a few who have attended his presentations. There is also a website with fervid testimonies....which I find the most shocking. And when you send a group email to potential "supporters" it's contents aren't exactly private anymore.

True. However, you can't read it as a public pronouncement either.

Didn't you present at CGU or am I thinking of someone else? There are a lot of non-LDS scholars there who don't see religion as an exercise in polemics. In fact, it offends them.

I'm not talking about polemics. My professors at Yale respected the Book of Mormon as a literary work and enjoyed working with me on all things Mormon. However, I'm sure if I were to ask them "So, do you think the Book of Mormon is actual history?" -- I think I know what the answer would have been. I certainly respect Islam but that doesn't mean that I accept the revelations and visions of Mohammad as "real" or "genuine."

I don't think it is the geography that is the problem. That is just the spin to avoid examination. Do you really think that anyone involved in reviewing this wasn't fully aware of the hullabaloo that would result? Yet they obviously thought it was better to take some hits than let this go unquestioned. I am certain that if you spent any time at all looking at his mangled use of scholarship you would have some problems with what he is putting up as THE TRUTH.

You may be right. And, if upon viewing Meldrum's material -- rather than reading summaries of it -- I find Meldrum to be as bold as Allan describes, I'll gladly eat crow.

But regardless of how awful the eevuhl people have been to Meldrum his response has not been consistent with what he claims to represent and to have. It's one thing to throw rocks on message boards but to put such juvenile flailing attacks in a book is not going to sit well with a lot of Mormons who do expect those presenting testimonies to comport themselves appropriately. All the "you did it first" in the world isn't going to help him on that...as evidenced by the number of Mormons who come here to lecture on appropriate Mormonish behavior.

I don't think people who criticize Meldrum are "evil." I think they are a little cranky and mean. But, maybe Meldrum's work deserves the ire it has received.

I just plain don't care but I'm not about to go with anybody who has a testimony of one and who quit his job to make a living from bearing it.

Do you think Meldrum things that what he's really doing? Isn't it more likely that he genuinely feels that he come up with something important and he wants to share it?

[Doc]

I apologize for horrendously misspelling Lois Midgley's name.

And who is this Lois Midgley? Is that Louis Midgley's Aunt?

Doc

~

[juliann]

I'm unwilling to spend money on his materials. If anyone wants to loan me a copy, I'd be grateful. Maybe it is exactly as Allan has described.

I have seen this quoted from his book:

[juliann]

Do you think Meldrum things that what he's really doing? Isn't it more likely that he genuinely feels that he come up with something important and he wants to share it?

No more than I think the Book of Mormon land tours just want to share something important.

[sethpayne]

I would even venture to guess that they may not always be respectful in private. But this is what you said: " I would like to meet a non-LDS scholar who doesn't see FARMS and FAIR models as "[planting] erroneous concepts and expectations in the minds of [readers]." I took that to mean that they considered religious texts they didn't believe in as "erroneous" in a dangerous kind of way whereas the scholars I studied with would not demand a sacred text meet any personal measure of truth or even accuracy. Even if you only meant geography I can't imagine a biblical scholar thinking about the Bible planting erroneous ideas. There wasn't that expectation placed on a sacred text to begin with.

Hi Juliann,

I have to disagree with you on this point. John Collins, a noted Hebrew Bible scholar and one of my former professors wrote an article entitled "Does the Bible Justify Violence?" In his mind, a misreading of the OT can potentially have disastrous consequences. Take, for example, some early American settlers who justified their violence against natives by using the Canaanite narratives from Joshua.

Some people used the Bible to justify human slavery. So, I think there are many biblical scholars who may fear that a certain reading of the Bible can lead "erroneous" readings in "a dangerous kind of way."

Also, I notice that you took exception to my statement:

"[planting] erroneous concepts and expectations in the minds of [readers]"

If I am reading you correctly, you saw this statement as polemical. Please correct me if I am wrong.

My statement, of course, is a reworking of what Allan had to say about Meldrum's work:

The DVD plants erroneous concepts and expectations in the minds of viewers, making them easier targets for hostile critics when these errors are inevitably trumpeted by enemies of the Church.

Is this not also potentially polemical? Allan is accusing Meldrum of creating easy targets for anti-Mormons which is essentially saying that Meldrum's activities will lead to the eventual loss of testimonies. Again, to get back to my original point about hostility, this seems to be quite the charge to make against a fellow believing Latter-day Saint.

Also, it seems that protecting testimonies fall "outside of [FAIR's] stewardship" -- as this is a pastoral and ecclesiastical function. I'm not sure why FAIR didn't simply document their concerns and present them to Meldrum's Bishop and Stake President. Publicly rebuking a seemingly sincere man and making some very serious accusations against him just strikes me as a bit harsh and over-the-top. Indeed, I wonder if FAIR's rebuke of Meldrum has actually generated more publicity for his testimony-damaging presentations.

Anyway, I believe you guys at FAIR have your hearts in the right place -- and I believe the same of Meldrum.

Seth

[sethpayne]

No more than I think the Book of Mormon land tours just want to share something important.

I'm not that cynical. Are the folks at Meridian just out to make a buck? To me, they seem about as staunch LDS as one can be.

[sethpayne]

I haven't heard anybody at either FAIR or FARMS (better, the Maxwell Institute) describe those believing Latter-day Saints who are persuaded by the speeches and DVDs and writings of Mr. Rodney Meldrum on the geography, archaeology, and genetics of the Book of Mormon, identify strongly with his position on those matters, and advocate it forcefully as a danger to the Church, rebels against the Brethren, seeking control of the Church, disloyal to Joseph Smith, or any of the several similar descriptions that have recently been applied to me and some of my friends by a faction of those believing Latter-day Saints who are persuaded by the speeches and DVDs and writings of Mr. Rodney Meldrum on the geography, archaeology, and genetics of the Book of Mormon, identify strongly with his position on those matters, and advocate it forcefully as a danger to the Church.

I'm not familiar with Meldrum's rhetoric as I have only read summaries of his positions. If it is as you have described, then I think the man needs to take a chill pill and perhaps his Bishop and SP can ask him to tone it down a bit. We are, after all, a community of Saints. We're all on the same team.

However, as I pointed out to Juliann, it appears that FAIR does believe Meldrum is a danger to the Church -- or at least to some of its members:

The DVD plants erroneous concepts and expectations in the minds of viewers, making them easier targets for hostile critics when these errors are inevitably trumpeted by enemies of the Church.

[shrff]

Notice that Meldrum only "presents himself" as a researcher. Regardless of whether we agree with his conclusions or not, Meldrum has done research and thus, is a researcher.

Rod Meldrum is fond of referring to himself as a researcher. Is this an accurate description of what he does? I do not think so.

Meldrum does research the way a high school student writes a "research" paper, he summarizes the original research of others and repackages it to fit his ideas. Meldrum's work also does not really meet the criteria for synthetic research because he does not cite or otherwise acknowledge the previous North American Models upon which much of his work stands. He attempts to tie himself only to peer-reviewed publications that seem to support his ideas, without citing opposing viewpoints in the literature except in the most general sense.

I have encouraged Meldrum to conduct and publish some the emerging original ideas he has shared in more recent presentations, but he indicated that he does not believe in the peer review process, and does not care to participate in an academic dialog with the scholarly community.

I believe that this disqualifies him as a researcher. I think of him more as a tour guide, author, and presenter.

[Calm]

He attempts to tie himself only to peer-reviewed publications that seem to support his ideas, without citing opposing viewpoints in the literature except in the most general sense.

And those opposing viewpoints may even be in the publications he's using (for example the timing elements of the DNA research he cites).

[cinepro]

I'm not that cynical. Are the folks at Meridian just out to make a buck?

If they are, it isn't working.

[juliann]

Hi Juliann,

I have to disagree with you on this point. John Collins, a noted Hebrew Bible scholar and one of my former professors wrote an article entitled "Does the Bible Justify Violence?" In his mind, a misreading of the OT can potentially have disastrous consequences. Take, for example, some early American settlers who justified their violence against natives by using the Canaanite narratives from Joshua.

Some people used the Bible to justify human slavery. So, I think there are many biblical scholars who may fear that a certain reading of the Bible can lead "erroneous" readings in "a dangerous kind of way."

Their paternalism aside, I can also take your words to say "this is a pastoral and ecclesiastical function". Nor do I see any indication that Collins is making accusations that the Bible "plants" ideas in people's head. I get it that you are setting up one sentence from a blog to demonstrate irony (or hyposcrisy). But to do that you have to put Meldrum's book on the same level as a sacred text and I don't think you are really going to do that. I studed OT under James Sanders at CGU and he was one of the primary movers of canonical criticism and I think that attitude is still reflected at CGU. So when you said " I would like to meet a non-LDS scholar who doesn't see FARMS and FAIR models as "[planting] erroneous concepts and expectations in the minds of [readers]." I gave you a university with a substantial number of them. Perhaps CGU is unique in that regard but I don't think countering with scholars who may not have the same attitude toward sacred texts reflects on scholars who do.

Also, it seems that protecting testimonies fall "outside of [FAIR's] stewardship" -- as this is a pastoral and ecclesiastical function. I'm not sure why FAIR didn't simply document their concerns and present them to Meldrum's Bishop and Stake President. Publicly rebuking a seemingly sincere man and making some very serious accusations against him just strikes me as a bit harsh and over-the-top. Indeed, I wonder if FAIR's rebuke of Meldrum has actually generated more publicity for his testimony-damaging presentations.

I haven't even read the blog you are quoting. It is difficult to keep up when you shift from FAIR to Allen on a blog. Certainly the blog reflects on FAIR because FAIR hosts it but if you are going to also use the organization FAIR I think it is appropriate to expect to discuss what FAIR itself has put up. FAIR does not pre-screen the blog and any number of people can start a topic. I'm not any more invested in what anyone says on the FAIR blog than I am in what they say here because individually we are as diverse as what you see on this message board.

Anyway, I believe you guys at FAIR have your hearts in the right place -- and I believe the same of Meldrum.

Thank you and that is how it should be until you have investigated fully for yourself.

[Anijen]

Julienne

I just plain don't care but I'm not about to go with anybody who has a testimony of one and who quit his job to make a living from bearing it.

sethpayne

Do you think Meldrum things that what he's really doing? Isn't it more likely that he genuinely feels that he come up with something important and he wants to share it?

I think Brother Meldrum is a good member and passionately believes what he espouses. My problem is the appearance of a second agenda (money).

I would like to put in a plug for Brother Wright's firesides, he has no books or DVDs to sell to paraphrase him, his only objective is to build peoples testimony of the Book of Mormon.

[juliann]

I'm not that cynical. Are the folks at Meridian just out to make a buck? To me, they seem about as staunch LDS as one can be.

As in would this be their full time job if they didn't.... yes. But again you are over reaching to set up ironic comparisons. Meridian is an online magazine. They are conservative, no doubt, but they are not there to promote a singular belief nor do they consider everyone who doesn't like magazines to be taken in by satan. Nor do they present themselves as scientific researchers or BOM experts. They seem to be in the business of reporting on them not in being them. I'm not sure how that relates to anything Medrum is doing.