Who is Rodney Meldrum and whats all the hubub about?

[jozov]

I have not been following this very closely, but it seems like many people have a lot of animosity toward this guy. Why is he so controversial? My limited understanding is that he is claiming the events of the BOM happened in N America and FAIR/FARMS claim the events occurred in S. America.

I know there are several theories on the geography of the BOM, but I never have really studied it that much because it was never really something I thought much about. Has the church ever made any official statements on the matter? Do they endorse one theory over the other?

I'll also admit I am too lazy to look this guy up and really research the whole thing. I know there are many church history buffs on here who are up to speed on the particulars, so I am asking for a cliff's note version on the dude.

[Maya]

Before the USA was considered as BoM lands by most, now most think it is in central America. We shal se....

[ERayR]

I have not been following this very closely, but it seems like many people have a lot of animosity toward this guy. Why is he so controversial? My limited understanding is that he is claiming the events of the BOM happened in N America and FAIR/FARMS claim the events occurred in S. America.

I know there are several theories on the geography of the BOM, but I never have really studied it that much because it was never really something I thought much about. Has the church ever made any official statements on the matter? Do they endorse one theory over the other?

I'll also admit I am too lazy to look this guy up and really research the whole thing. I know there are many church history buffs on here who are up to speed on the particulars, so I am asking for a cliff's note version on the dude.

Not animosity towards him but rather disregard for his Book of Mormon geographical theory and some of his methods of promoting it.

The church has not made any endorsement.

[SlackTime]

Rodney is a guy who developed a theory about where the Book of Mormon lands took place. There have been a number of theories and if he had stopped there he would have been just another theory.

Here is a list of a great number of theories.

Problems came up when in promoting his theories Brother Meldrum suggested, or seemed to suggest, that those who didn't agree with his theory were somehow "dismissive" of Joseph Smith and that his model "reaffirmed" Joseph and his prophecies and revelations regarding North America as the "promised land".

For more information here is a couple links:

FAIR Blog: Using and misusing scholarship and revelation

[SilverKnight]

I have not been following this very closely, but it seems like many people have a lot of animosity toward this guy. Why is he so controversial? My limited understanding is that he is claiming the events of the BOM happened in N America and FAIR/FARMS claim the events occurred in S. America.

You're right for the most part.

I understand that Meldrum has resorted to some pretty bad apologetics and poor scholarship to make his case for N. America as the location for the BoM events.

FARMS, on the other hand, has at least attempted to use real evidence and legitimate scholarship to put forth Mesoamerica as a plausible location for the same events.

I think the prevailing opinion is R.Meldrum is somewhat of an unqualified hack making claims about BoM geography that would be easily slaughtered by LDS critics or a real archaeologist/anthropologist.

Meldrums brand of uninformed apologetic zeal ultimately results in a quite poor defense of mormonism and many headeaches for FARMS.

[notHagoth7]

Why is he so controversial?

Some bristle against his message (N. America).

Some bristle against his tactics.

Some bristle against some of the things he bases his conclusions on.

Take your pick.

Has the church ever made any official statements on the matter?

Depends on who you ask. The current official position of the church on this matter is that there is no official position of the church.

Do they endorse one theory over the other?

No.

so I am asking for a cliff's note version on the dude.

He believes Zarahemla, Bountiful, and the like are in North America.

[cinepro]

Rodney Meldrum is a recent, vocal supporter of the traditional Book of Mormon geography that says Book of Mormon events took place mainly in the places now known as the US states of New York, Ohio, Indiana, Missouri etc. He travels throughout Utah, Idaho and Arizona offering seminars about this theory, and he has recently published a book as well.

Meldrum's geography relies on two primary beliefs:

- The Hill Cumorah/Ramah in the Book of Mormon and the "Hill Cumorah" in upperstate New York are one and the same. ( Conversely, all "Mesoamerican" geographies theorize there being two or more "Cumorahs".)

- The "promised land" in the Book of Mormon was geographically located in what is now the United States of America.

If you believe these two points, then Meldrum's geography will be very appealing to you.

Before the USA was considered as BoM lands by most, now most think it is in central America. We shal se....

CFR that "most think it is in Central America".

[Anijen]

Brother Meldrum also sells his books and DVDs at his seminars and firesides and his website you have to pay to become a member. Some feel that Brother Meldrum agenda is more for profit than education. He also uses the Michigan Relics as a support for his theory, when the Michigan artifacts have been proven fraudulent even by LDS apostle James E Talmadge but he will still use them in his firesides.

I am of the opinion that shoddy scholarly work ultimately hurts the church more than strengthens it.

[Maya]

CFR?

[Anijen]

CFR?

Hi Maya, when you see CFR it stands for call for references, Cinepro is asking what your sources are.

[dblagent007]

A few of my relatives have become very interested in Meldrum's theories. I asked one of them why he found them so appealing. His response: DNA evidence has disproven all the other theories and supports only Meldrum's theory.

You can see why Meldrum is like fingers grating on a chalkboard to the FAIR/FARMS establishment.

[Brant Gardner]

CFR that "most think it is in Central America".

I think he meant "most of the cool people. . . " No need for a CFR on that - it is obvious.

[SlackTime]

I think he meant "most of the cool people. . . " No need for a CFR on that - it is obvious.

I don't know.... I kinda like the theory that places the whole thing up in the Andes with the Amazon being under water... which makes it an "isle of the sea" and....

Of course I'm not necessarily one of the cool people

- SlackTime

[cinepro]

I think he meant "most of the cool people. . . " No need for a CFR on that - it is obvious.

It was my impression that most LDS believed in the mesoamerican setting as well, but after reading Kieth Merrill's intro, and some conversations I've had with some Church members in the last few weeks, I'm wondering if I was unduly influenced by the time I spend online.

[poulsenll]

It was my impression that most LDS believed in the mesoamerican setting as well, but after reading Kieth Merrill's intro, and some conversations I've had with some Church members in the last few weeks, I'm wondering if I was unduly influenced by the time I spend online.

I think most members have no idea as to where the Book of Mormon culture was located other than that it was somewhere in the Americas. In my opinion the majority of members read the BofM for its spiritual message and are unconcerned with the geography.

From my experience with graduate students at the University of Texas, even non members have little interest in geography. At one time I had to post a world map on the wall in order to settle an argument about where Australia was located. Some of the students apparently did not know the difference between Austria and Australia and were convinced that they were both in Europe. Sometimes, I dont think members of the church are any different.

Larry P

[BCSpace]

Problems came up when in promoting his theories Brother Meldrum suggested, or seemed to suggest, that those who didn't agree with his theory were somehow "dismissive" of Joseph Smith and that his model "reaffirmed" Joseph and his prophecies and revelations regarding North America as the "promised land".

Still seems like part of the hypothesis (there are no theories here); whether or not it can be supported by doctrinal statements. Seems that all one would have to do to discredit this hypothesis is compare Meldrum's JS statements with what the Church considers doctrinal and call him on it.

[Mortal Man]

I am of the opinion that shoddy scholarly work ultimately hurts the church more than strengthens it.

It's a red-letter day. Anijen and I finally agree on something.

[David Bokovoy]

I think he meant "most of the cool people. . . " No need for a CFR on that - it is obvious.

It may be true that only the cool people think it is in Central America, but I know for sure only the rich people can afford those damn books of yours, Brant!

[rodheadlee]

"even non members have little interest in geography"

Hey guys and gals, I love geography, and I appreciate all of your efforts on these threads about where the BoM took place.

[Wiki Wonka]

I attended a Meldrum sponsored presentation that was taught by Bruce Porter. He first taught us what he called a hierarchy by which we could determine if something was true:

1. Scripture

2. Statements of Joseph Smith

3. Statements of the current prophet only while he is called as a prophet.

4. Everything that does not fit into these three categories is to be considered opinion.

I had an issue with placing the living prophet #3 on that list.

Then he showed some quotations from several LDS scholars (whose names were only listed as "name witheld," like they were guilty of having done something wrong.) He told us that these scholars are "discounting and disdaining" Joseph Smith. The scholars that he quoted were in reality Kenneth W. Godfrey, Matthew Roper, Jeff Lindsay and John Sorenson.

Regarding DNA, he put up a slide that showed a Black person, an Asian person and a Caucasian. He taught us that there were three "supergroups" from which all races descended:

1) All Caucasians are claimed to be descendants of Shem.

2) All Asians are claimed to be descendants of Japheth.

3) All Blacks are claimed to be descendants of Ham.

However, he got even this bad bit of science wrong. Traditionally, Japheth is assigned to the "white" race and Shem to the "red" race.

Then he talked about how the descendants of Ham couldn't hold the priesthood. Bro. Porter said that if one was "not a semite" that the person "won't be able to hold the priesthood," and that "to hold the priesthood one has to go back to Shem." In other words, he taught us the "Curse of Cain".

There were some Elders at the seminar who had invited investigators because they thought that the presentation was a fireside. I talked with them afterward and they told me that they were awfully glad that their investigators didn't show up after all. In fact, they thought that the hand of the Lord was evident in the fact that their investigators didn't show.

I guess you can deduce that I wasn't impressed.

WW

[jozov]

Regarding DNA, he put up a slide that showed a Black person, an Asian person and a Caucasian. He taught us that there were three "supergroups" from which all races descended:

1) All Caucasians are claimed to be descendants of Shem.

2) All Asians are claimed to be descendants of Japheth.

3) All Blacks are claimed to be descendants of Ham.

Huh? Where is he getting all this Shem, Japheth, Ham claims on DNA and race? The Bible barely talks about these 3 guys, and just because they are named in the Bible does not mean they actually existed IMHO. Are there some secret DNA samples of Shem, Japheth, and Ham that determine their race?

[Wiki Wonka]

Regarding DNA, he put up a slide that showed a Black person, an Asian person and a Caucasian. He taught us that there were three "supergroups" from which all races descended:

1) All Caucasians are claimed to be descendants of Shem.

2) All Asians are claimed to be descendants of Japheth.

3) All Blacks are claimed to be descendants of Ham.

Huh? Where is he getting all this Shem, Japheth, Ham claims on DNA and race? The Bible barely talks about these 3 guys, and just because they are named in the Bible does not mean they actually existed IMHO. Are there some secret DNA samples of Shem, Japheth, and Ham that determine their race?

The "Curse of Cain" was taught as a way for religious people to justify slavery (the LDS didn't invent it).

From Stephen R. Haynes, Noah's Curse: The Biblical Justification of American Slavery (Oxford University Press, 2002), 5

[David Bokovoy]

Regarding DNA, he put up a slide that showed a Black person, an Asian person and a Caucasian. He taught us that there were three "supergroups" from which all races descended:

1) All Caucasians are claimed to be descendants of Shem.

2) All Asians are claimed to be descendants of Japheth.

3) All Blacks are claimed to be descendants of Ham.

Huh? Where is he getting all this Shem, Japheth, Ham claims on DNA and race? The Bible barely talks about these 3 guys, and just because they are named in the Bible does not mean they actually existed IMHO. Are there some secret DNA samples of Shem, Japheth, and Ham that determine their race?

Though over the years some Latter-day Saint commentators have gravitated towards this traditional sectarian notion, the idea is sheer nonsense! Not only can we disprove the notion academically, but having had some exposure to the process via Institute curriculum writing, I know for a fact that this teaching would never pass through the correlation department.

[Wiki Wonka]

Though over the years some Latter-day Saint commentators have gravitated towards this traditional sectarian notion, the idea is sheer nonsense! Not only can we disprove the notion academically, but having had some exposure to the process via Institute curriculum writing, I know for a fact that this teaching would never pass through the correlation department.

And yet, Brother Porter stated at the beginning of his presentation that he had helped write Church manuals. He used that to establish his credibility.

[David Bokovoy]

And yet, Brother Porter stated at the beginning of his presentation that he had helped write Church manuals. He used that to establish his credibility.

I'm afraid it doesn't establish any credibility. Look at me, they'll hire anyone.