Joseph SMith's Jupiter Talisman

[mfbukowski]

I am a practicing occultist, and see nothing wrong with Joseph Smith being one either.

Maybe it's just me, but for this forum, why does it not give me comfort that a practicing occultist says there's "nothing wrong" with it? Perhaps a little credibility problem there?

But even IF he owned it, which is doubtful, I agree that he could have owned it for many different purposes. At one point in my life, I thought Maltese crosses looked "cool". I had t-shirts imprinted with them and various others worn in different ways, with absolutely no concept that such a decoration could have a "meaning". It was just a design I liked.

And I am sure there are some "practicing occultists" who just like the shock value of saying that, without much understanding of what it means. Present company excepted, of course

[Tsuzuki]

What is this shock value you speak of? The occult is actually pretty boring. Among my hobbies, anime and video games are far more exciting. The occult has about as much shock value as any other religious philosophy.

[BCSpace]

(Thews -- If you want, just look at the bolded portion of this post... the rest is me being, well... me)

What ever "straw man" arguments exist (like saying that Emma said it was his, with no qualifying statements ), I think it is pretty cool if it was his (probably belonged to Catherine though... that heretic fellow-Jupiterian sister).

Now, the Mars Dagger on the other hand...

PS.

Do you mind hooking up a link to the Ensign article (or just give me the title/author, I can probably find it off that)?

Wonder if BCSpace will think this makes it doctrine...

-Phylactery Stu

Setting New Records for Emoticon Use

Here's some doctrine for ya......

Antelope

[mfbukowski]

What is this shock value you speak of? The occult is actually pretty boring. Among my hobbies, anime and video games are far more exciting. The occult has about as much shock value as any other religious philosophy.

Notice that I excepted you from the comment.

[Tsuzuki]

Notice that I excepted you from the comment.

But I'm not the exception.

[Pahoran]

What has become of thews? He doesn't appear to have been banned; surely he wouldn't have run away from his own thread?

And does anyone else see a contradiction here?

From the OP:

why is it such a big deal to just admith the Jupiter Talisman did belong to Joseph Smith?

But subsequently:

The reason I find this interesting is what I believe the talisman implies.

So he first pretends not to see any "big deal," but then drops a little hint about what "the talisman implies."

So, if it's not such a big deal, why is thews so enthewsed about it?

Regards,

Pahoran

[mrmendoza]

About 20 years ago I seem to remember reading all about that. Of course my memory isn't perfect, but it seems to me that the quotations that thews is "revealing" to us were all from the book "The God Makers". Someone let me read his copy of that book and I remember that it gave me a very "dark" feeling. Not about the Church, which I pressume, was it's purpose, but about the book itself! I can't believe that someone is dredging that garbage back up after all these years, but I'd have to say, that it doesn't really "imply" anything except that maybe he carried a "lucky trinket"! I used to carry a rabbits foot when I was younger, so what?

Mike

[MormonMason]

What is this shock value you speak of? The occult is actually pretty boring. Among my hobbies, anime and video games are far more exciting. The occult has about as much shock value as any other religious philosophy.

That would depend upon which occultic arts...

[Tsuzuki]

That would depend upon which occultic arts...

No, they are actually all pretty bland. Pop culture has sucked the shock value out of pretty much everything. Nowadays, if you want any kind of benefit from an occult principle, you actually have to put it to use in the real world. You can't just go around pretending to be a wizard anymore. Boring, I tell you.

[Pappy Fiddle]

I searched for the terms 'talisman' and 'jupiter talisman' in the gospel magazines section on lds.org and there were no hits.

I doesn't appear that the word or the phrase was ever used in any Ensign article.

This does not follow. There have been articles printed in the Ensign, which are not present in the online version today. They've been nuked. Gone, without a trace or note.

Also, church software is not <ahem> always without glitch.

Pappy

[Pappy Fiddle]

Well, and then there is the fact that the one side of the talisman is incorrectly arranged as well as part of the symbol on the other being broken because it was copied from the portion of Barrett's work that had part of the character broken because it was not properly inked before being applied to paper in the book. Even if had been intended to have been an authentic piece of magic it would not have worked. ...

Had it been made precisely to ancient formula, and even cast on the precise alignment of time as that little video suggests... it still would not have worked. The notion that an object can cause events to conform to benefit someone, or exude positive energy, or good fortune, or whatever, is nonsense.

The symbols on an object can exert an influence. The mechanism is that a person reads them and changes his thoughts, words, and actions as a result. This is how books work. You can even use a small piece of cardboard with certain symbols to magically get you into a ball game or movie theater. It's not really magic, but to the uninitiated, any advanced technology might look like magic.

I even hear that some people carry little pieces of metal or paper with mysterious symbols on them, and it gives them extra powers.

Pappy

[Pappy Fiddle]

I even hear that some people carry little pieces of metal or paper with mysterious symbols on them, and it gives them extra powers.

Check out the occult symbols!

[Doctor Steuss]

Here's some doctrine for ya......

Holy smokes, for some reason that made me really nostalgic.

I used to get so excited when the newest issue of the Friend would arrive. It even had my name on it (my parents would have various magazines put in our names to make us feel special).

There was only one thing I liked as much as the Friend, and that was Highlights (not LDS, but while I

[LifeOnaPlate]

Goofus and Gallant.

[ERMD]

Goofus and Gallant.

Beat me to it.

OK--The Timbertoes

[LifeOnaPlate]

Whoa I totally forgot the Timbertoes!

[wenglund]

He was Emma's step son.

If Emma did tell him it was in JS's possession and all the rest, then it is highly unlikely imo that she handed it to him who was not only not JS's son, but not her son instead of handing it on to one of Joseph and hers actual descendants. I think this is highly problematic for his claim. At best, he might have found it in her effects, but then why does he think it's okay for himself to own it rather than give it to one of Emma's children?

I think it only fair to mention that in Nibley's "The Meaning of the Kirtland Egyptian Papers", updated by Brian Hauglid, the footnote #8 reads: "Wilford Wood purchased

Ms. #1 from Charles Bidamon in 1935 and donated it to the Church in

1937. See

[Pahoran]

I think it only fair to mention that in Nibley's "The Meaning of the Kirtland Egyptian Papers", updated by Brian Hauglid, the footnote #8 reads: "Wilford Wood purchased

Ms. #1 from Charles Bidamon in 1935 and donated it to the Church in

1937. See

[BCSpace]

There was only one thing I liked as much as the Friend, and that was Highlights (not LDS, but while I

[Doctor Steuss]

[...]

You and I are getting......older.

*Shudder*

I actually found a Yoda-like hair on my ear a few weeks ago... I hope it wasn't infused with the force (it met an unfortunate demise).

[Redefined]

*Shudder*

I actually found a Yoda-like hair on my ear a few weeks ago... I hope it wasn't infused with the force (it met an unfortunate demise).

LOL! The force is strong with this one!

[Wiki Wonka]

Assuming I've read it right, Bill McKeever gives the reference as: Early Mormonism and the Magic World View, pp.70ff (1987 ed)

http://blog.mrm.org/2009/09/joseph-smiths-powerful-influence/ see the beginning of BMcK's multiple posts quoting Quinn on Sept 23 about 1/5 up from the bottom. (do a find on "sales talk" to locate it quickly)

Sorry this has taken so long. I didn't have the time on the weekend that I had anticipated.

It looks like McKeever is quoting the first edition. I have the 1998 edition, so the page numbers don't appear to match. On pages 81-82, after talking a lot about the importance of Jupiter, Quinn writes:

The astrological dominance of Jupiter in Smith's life is also reflected in an artifact preserved by Emma Smith. After hre widow's marriage into the Bidamon family, she told them that this medallion was of special significance to the Mormon prophet. In September 1902 her stepson displayed it to LDS apostle John Henry Smith. His diary noted: "Mr. Chas. E. Bidamon showed us a medal said to have been carved by Joseph Smith with this inscription on it [-] Confirm[o] O Deus Potentissimus." [126] One of the apostle's traveling companions gave more detail about what Bidamon said on this occasion. Eleven-year-old Henry D. Moyle was keeping a daily record of this trip which "show[ed] that he was already a perceptive observer," according to his biographer. The youn man's diary noted: "a man showed us a peice[sic] of metal found in the pocket of the prophet when killed [-] It is about the size of a dollar [coin]. It had a latten [Latin] phrase meaning O God make me all powerful and many..." [127]

Not until three decades later did Charles Bidamon offer to sell this artifact.

Later on the page (p. 82),

In 1938 Bidamon made an affidavit about this sale, "This is to certify that I have sold to Wilford C. Wood of Woods Cross[,] Utah, a silver piece bearing the inscription, "Confirmus [sic] O Deus Potentissimus' and numerous hieroglyphical inscriptions. This piece came to me through the relationship of my father Major L. C. Bidamon who married the Prophet Joseph Smiths widow, Emma Smith. I certify that I have many times heard her say, when being interviewed, and showing the piece, that it was in the Prophets pocket when he was martyred at Carthage," Bidamon wrote. "She prized this piece very highly on account of its being one of the Prophets intimate possessions." [132]

Notes:

[126]John Henry Smith manuscript diary, 6 Sept. 1902, George A. Smith Family papers, Marriott Library, quoted with transcription errors in Jean Bickmore White, ed. Church State, and Politics: The Diaries of John Henry Smith, 510.

[127]Henry D. Moyle diary, 4 Sept. 1902.

[132]Wilford C. Wood to Heber J. Grant and David O. McKay, 13 Sept. 1937, reel 6, and Charles E. Bidamon affidavit (5 Jan. 1938), reel 16, Film 413, Wood Collection.

[Pappy Fiddle]

Wilford Wood purchased Ms. #1 from Charles Bidamon in 1935 and donated it to the Church in 1937. ... This tells me that at least something of value that may once have been in Emma's possesion, got passed on to her step-son's family.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Hmmm, lessee here now... Charley sold a notebook in 1935, said to be Joseph's... and Charley sold a medallion in 1930, said to be Joseph's... I follow the logic thru on this and get a funny answer.

Pappy

[thews]

Thews,

Originally I just skimmed your post, and that comment caught my eye (thought it would be groovy if true). I went and re-read it hoping to find some hints that would help searching for the reference, and I think I found the problem.

This:

Somehow morphed into this:

It wasn

[Glenn101]

I realized this after the fact, but didn't know what book the editor of the Ensign was being referenced. I'm fairly sure that according to LDS tactics this will be proof enough that Joseph Smith didn't own the Jupiter talisman, but that's common... the truth is Joseph Smith was into occult magic and did own it, but a quote from Emma prolly isn't enough to convince the people that need this to be false... it's not false, just as Hyram's knife isn't false. I'll weed though the high fivers posts who have nothing to add this weekend and answer it.

We have a a direct Emma quote? The last I heard we had a quote from Wilbur Wood who bought the talisman from Charles Bidamon. Do you have any other evidence than a fourth hand account? Did you check the documents which detailed the personal possessions that Joseph had on him when he was murdered? Do you believe in the Spalding theory also?

Glenn