Joseph SMith's Jupiter Talisman

[LifeOnaPlate]

Wait, I thought of an even better response:

I attest that it never was presented in the Ensign. I haven't looked on the web, but if I can find it I'll retract my Ensign comment, but for now I attest that thews is wrong.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Wait, I thought of a better response even:

I attest that it never was presented in the Ensign. I haven't looked on the web, but if I can find it I'll retract my Ensign comment, but for now I attest that thews is wrong.

That one is better. You better be carefule he might put you on ignore for not responding to his "facts" and "logic".

[WalkerW]

Wait, I thought of a better response even:

I attest that it never was presented in the Ensign. I haven't looked on the web, but if I can find it I'll retract my Ensign comment, but for now I attest that thews is wrong.

Well done.

I'm a little baffled by this:

I'm just quoting the facts, and there is more than one.

So, are you quoting from "facts" or just quoting a single "fact?" (though I think it has been shown that there really aren't any facts to support your position besides a half-century old recollection)

[Calm]

I attest too. Look at the info given by thews and see if you can tell the problem with it and how thews was careless with his assumptions and sources....again:

And the Ensign verified the Talisman belonged to Joseph Smith.

"In fact, the managing editor of the LDS Church's 'Ensign' magazine did not hesitate to affirm Joseph Smith's ownership of this 'silver piece' in a Deseret Book publication of 1969.

[LifeOnaPlate]

I attest too. Look at the info given by thews and see if you can tell the problem with it and how thews was careless with his assumptions and sources....again:

[Redefined]

I have never heard of this Talisman before. What may be factual is that Charles Bidamon had a Jupiter talisman that he sold under the suggestion that it was originally Joseph Smiths. It sounds like he was trumping up the situation to help with the nostalgia and return a bigger profit. Why did he choose an artifact like this, which Joseph Smith, wasn't famously known to have possessed. . . instead of claiming he had the urim and thummim?

[Doctor Steuss]

Thews,

Originally I just skimmed your post, and that comment caught my eye (thought it would be groovy if true). I went and re-read it hoping to find some hints that would help searching for the reference, and I think I found the problem.

This:

"In fact, the managing editor of the LDS Church's 'Ensign' magazine did not hesitate to affirm Joseph Smith's ownership of this 'silver piece' in a Deseret Book publication of 1969.

Somehow morphed into this:

And the Ensign verified the Talisman belonged to Joseph Smith.

It wasn

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I attest too. Look at the info given by thews and see if you can tell the problem with it and how thews was careless with his assumptions and sources....again:

[Doctor Steuss]

Why did he choose an artifact like this, which Joseph Smith, wasn't famously known to have possessed. . . [...]?

Now there's one helluva question.

[Deborah]

I'm just quoting the facts, and there is more than one. The reason I find this interesting is what I believe the talisman implies.

And what does it imply? And who cares? Many people have lucky coins or other "lucky" talismans as keepsakes and guess what they still believe in God and aren't superstitious.

In fact if anyone wants to get a Jupiter Talisman here's a site: jupiter talisman

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I have never heard of this Talisman before. What may be factual is that Charles Bidamon had a Jupiter talisman that he sold under the suggestion that it was originally Joseph Smiths. It sounds like he was trumping up the situation to help with the nostalgia and return a bigger profit. Why did he choose an artifact like this, which Joseph Smith, wasn't famously known to have possessed. . . instead of claiming he had the urim and thummim?

We have one ex-mormon who gets it, and one that doesnt. This is a fair assessment of the situation.

[Redefined]

We have one ex-mormon who gets it, and one that doesnt. This is a fair assessment of the situation.

I think that is the same logic behind Chapel Mormon vs. Internet Mormon.

[Calm]

[quote name='Doctor Steuss' date='06 November 2009 - 04:33 PM' timestamp='1257550394' post='12087491

It wasn

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I think that is the same logic behind Chapel Mormon vs. Internet Mormon.

Yup.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Yep.

What caught my eye first (I was skimming as well) was the date--69. The Ensign didn't come into existence until 71.

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?locale=0&vgnextoid=bddd083ffe5bc010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

More salt into the wound.

[Tsuzuki]

In fact if anyone wants to get a Jupiter Talisman here's a site: jupiter talisman

It's better if you make one yourself.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Why did he choose an artifact like this, which Joseph Smith, wasn't famously known to have possessed. . .

My guess? Because it was available.

[Doctor Steuss]

Yep.

What caught my eye first (I was skimming as well) was the date--69. The Ensign didn't come into existence until 71.

http://www.lds.org/l...0004d82620aRCRD

*sigh*

This is one of the reasons (amongst others, namely the lack of footnotes/endnotes to primary sources) that make me think "Mormonthink," and similar sites (i.e. TheMoCurtain) are almost completely worthless. Here we seeminly have someone who wasn

[LifeOnaPlate]

MormonStink is quality stuff.

[Redefined]

My guess? Because it was available.

Okay, so here are the possible scenerios

1)He just happened to have a Jupiter Talisman, knew he was in a good position (being Emma's son) to back up the claim, and made a buck off the first idiot to believe him.

2) He was under the impression that this Jupiter Talisman he had belonged to Joseph Smith because his Mom had told him it did. He fabricated the story for a bigger profit.

3) Emma really did tell him that it was in Joseph Smith's possesion when he died. So she handed it on as an heirloom of sacred rememberance.

I don't think there is anyway to tell for sure what was the real story behind it.

However, I know we have evidence to support there wasn't evidence to support that Joseph Smith had it in his possession when he died. This doesn't invalidate the above scenarios though, just the conclusion drawn.

[Calm]

*sigh*

This is one of the reasons (amongst others, namely the lack of footnotes/endnotes to primary sources) that make me think "Mormonthink," and similar sites are almost completely worthless. Here we seeminly have someone who wasn

[Calm]

Okay, so here are the possible scenerios

1)He just happened to have a Jupiter Talisman, knew he was in a good position (being Emma's son) ....

3) Emma really did tell him that it was in Joseph Smith's possesion when he died. So she handed it on as an heirloom of sacred rememberance.

He was Emma's step son.

If Emma did tell him it was in JS's possession and all the rest, then it is highly unlikely imo that she handed it to him who was not only not JS's son, but not her son instead of handing it on to one of Joseph and hers actual descendants. I think this is highly problematic for his claim. At best, he might have found it in her effects, but then why does he think it's okay for himself to own it rather than give it to one of Emma's children?

Is there any indication that Emma left him anything in her will? I am assuming that stepsons do not have legal claim...unless he was adopted, which I don't know if he was or was not.

add-on: the following is a link to a book that states that Emma took in Charles, the illegitimate son of Lewis Bidamon, her then husband, and Nancy Abercombie. Later she asked Nancy to come live with them as housekeeper. Prior to her death, she instructed Lewis and Nancy to get married so that Charles could be given legitimate status so it's unlikely he was adopted and it seems she saw him as Nancy's son (in that she likely had Nancy come live with them so as she could be near him) rather than her own.

Dang nice thing for her to do, btw.

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache%3Aq2MSSRmjOnsJ%3Awww.mormonhistoricsitesfoundation.org%2Fpublications%2Fnj_fall1999%2FNJ11.2_Wilson.pdf+charles+bidamon&hl=en&gl=us

[Tsuzuki]

As a side note, CTR rings make pretty good talismans.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Okay, so here are the possible scenerios

1)He just happened to have a Jupiter Talisman, knew he was in a good position (being Emma's son) to back up the claim, and made a buck off the first idiot to believe him.

2) He was under the impression that this Jupiter Talisman he had belonged to Joseph Smith because his Mom had told him it did. He fabricated the story for a bigger profit.

3) Emma really did tell him that it was in Joseph Smith's possesion when he died. So she handed it on as an heirloom of sacred rememberance.

I don't think there is anyway to tell for sure what was the real story behind it.

However, I know we have evidence to support there wasn't evidence to support that Joseph Smith had it in his possession when he died. This doesn't invalidate the above scenarios though, just the conclusion drawn.

Redefined, you have provided 3 possible scenarios, and in an erudite manner. Excellent.

(I noted a few reasons why I don't favor it as having belonged to JS, but it is possible it did as you say)

[Calm]

Anyone have Quinn's Early Mormonism etc. I'd like to know what the reference "Todd 1969, 328, 330" (from the quote of his quote on Mormon Coffee) is to.