One Reason Why the "Promised Land" is not Exclusively the USA

[Sargon]

1 Nephi 13:12 And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters; and I beheld the Spirit of God, that it came down and wrought upon the man; and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land.

Assuming that the individual being referenced here is Christopher Columbus (as most tend to think, according to my experience) we can conclude that because Columbus never set foot on any land that would eventually become part of the USA that the USA can not, at the least, be the exclusive site of the promise land. It certainly may be included, but apparently so is the non-USA area in which Columbus set foot.

I know of some who argue that the USA is the "promised land" referenced in the Book of Mormon, and therefore argue against a Mesoamerican view. I think that this passage leads us to believe otherwise. If the "promised land" could be in an area where the USA is not, then the "promised land" must have a more broad meaning.

One might even be tempted to push this a bit further. According to Wikipedia, Columbus had four voyages to the Americas. The first two took him only to Caribbean islands. The third eventually led him to South America. The fourth, and final, voyage eventually took him to the coasts of modern day Honduras, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, and Panama. At no time did Colombus set foot on the North American continent. He did however, mingle among the coasts of nations extremely close to the Mesoamerican modal proposed by Sorenson and others.

Thoughts?

Sargon

(hat tip to Allen Wyatt for pointing this out)

[The Nehor]

Quibbling point, but Central America is part of North America. It says so in virtually every map, wikipedia, and the Risk game. You don't get those 5 extra armies unless you have Central America.

[handys003]

Assuming that the individual being referenced here is Christopher Columbus (as most tend to think, according to my experience) we can conclude that because Columbus never set foot on any land that would eventually become part of the USA that the USA can not, at the least, be the exclusive site of the promise land. It certainly may be included, but apparently so is the non-USA area in which Columbus set foot.

I know of some who argue that the USA is the "promised land" referenced in the Book of Mormon, and therefore argue against a Mesoamerican view. I think that this passage leads us to believe otherwise. If the "promised land" could be in an area where the USA is not, then the "promised land" must have a more broad meaning.

One might even be tempted to push this a bit further. According to Wikipedia, Columbus had four voyages to the Americas. The first two took him only to Caribbean islands. The third eventually led him to South America. The fourth, and final, voyage eventually took him to the coasts of modern day Honduras, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, and Panama. At no time did Colombus set foot on the North American continent. He did however, mingle among the coasts of nations extremely close to the Mesoamerican modal proposed by Sorenson and others.

Thoughts?

Sargon

(hat tip to Allen Wyatt for pointing this out)

I don't know how you concluded Columbus out of Nephi's vision which you quoted 1 nephi 13:12. Please explain this assumption. My interpretation would be Nephi saw Jehova in the Americas feeding his sheep.

3 nephi 16: 1-3

1 And verily, verily, I say unto you that I have other sheep, which are not of this land, neither of the land of Jerusalem, neither in any parts of that land round about whither I have been to minister.

2 For they of whom I speak are they who have not as yet heard my voice; neither have I at any time manifested myself unto them.

3 But I have received a commandment of the Father that I shall go unto them, and that they shall hear my voice, and shall be numbered among my sheep, that there may be one fold and one shepherd; therefore I go to show myself unto them

3 nephi 15:14-24

14 And not at any time hath the Father given me commandment that I should atell it unto your brethren at Jerusalem.

15 Neither at any time hath the Father given me commandment that I should tell unto them concerning the aother tribes of the house of Israel, whom the Father hath led away out of the land.

16 This much did the Father command me, that I should tell unto them:

17 That other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one ashepherd.

18 And now, because of stiffneckedness and unbelief they understood not my word; therefore I was commanded to say no more of the Father concerning this thing unto them.

19 But, verily, I say unto you that the Father hath commanded me, and I tell it unto you, that ye were separated from among them because of their iniquity; therefore it is because of their iniquity that they know not of you.

20 And verily, I say unto you again that the other tribes hath the Father separated from them; and it is because of their iniquity that they know not of them.

21 And verily I say unto you, that ye are they of whom I said: Other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

22 And they understood me not, for they supposed it had been the aGentiles; for they understood not that the Gentiles should be bconverted through their preaching.

23 And they understood me not that I said they shall hear my voice; and they understood me not that the Gentiles should not at any time hear my voice—that I should not manifest myself unto them save it were by the Holy Ghost.

24 But behold, ye have both heard my voice, and seen me; and ye are my sheep, and ye are numbered among those whom the Father hath given me

3 Nephi 17:4

4 But now I go unto the Father, and also to show myself unto the lost tribes of Israel, for they are not lost unto the Father, for he knoweth whither he hath taken them

[krose]

Columbus never set foot on any land that would eventually become part of the USA

You're assuming that JS knew this fact when he wrote the book, are you not?

Another point... if we consider the fact that Columbus landed in South and Central America, and factor in the LGT idea that the BoM happened entirely down there, what reason is there to assume that the "promised land" includes the USA at all? Doesn't it make more sense that the promised land is Guatemala/South Mexico?

[Sevenbak]

The Promised land was never supposed to exclude the non-United States countries in this Hemisphere. It's all a chosen land to the Lord, both North and South.

Alma 46:17

And it came to pass that when he had poured out his soul to God, he named all the land which was south of the land Desolation, yea, and in fine, all the land, both on the north and on the southâ??A chosen land, and the land of liberty.

Then there's the whole issue of no kings being on this land. I think Chavez is the closest thing we've had to that, but still no...

[Sevenbak]

You're assuming that JS knew this fact when he wrote the book, are you not?

Another point... if we consider the fact that Columbus landed in South and Central America, and factor in the LGT idea that the BoM happened entirely down there, what reason is there to assume that the "promised land" includes the USA at all? Doesn't it make more sense that the promised land is Guatemala/South Mexico?

Actually no, because Ether names this land as the land where the New Jerusalem should come down, and we know that is in N. America. Still Hemispheric.

[LeSellers]

there's the whole issue of no kings being on this land. I think Chavez is the closest thing we've had to that, but still no...

I can think of at least one other contemporary regal-wannabe, but board rule prohibit my naming him/them. He/they is(are)/was(were) close allies of Chavez and the late, unlamented senior senator from one New England state.

I suppose I could give initials: FC and RC.

Lehi

[Sevenbak]

I can think of at least one other contemporary regal-wannabe, but board rule prohibit my naming him/them. He/they is(are)/was(were) close allies of Chavez and the late, unlamented senior senator from one New England state.

I suppose I could give initials: FC and RC.

Lehi

[CV75]

One might even be tempted to push this a bit further. According to Wikipedia, Columbus had four voyages to the Americas.

He also set foot throughout the Mediterranean and Aegean Seas, and in Ireland, and Iceland, so maybe Hagoth went in those directions instead of the isles of the Pacific... Just kidding. I think the intent is that the western hemisphere is the land of promise for the seed of Lehi. Eventually, when the land masses again unite so will all the promised lands of all the covenant people the Lord has ever led into "safe harbors" all over the globe.

[BCSpace]

GUIDE TO THE SCRIPTURES Promised Land

Lands that the Lord promises as an inheritance to his faithful followers, and often also to their descendants. There are many promised lands. Often in the Book of Mormon, the promised land spoken of is the Americas.

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/gs/p/63

Of course we can't discount the promises made regarding the USA. I think the BoM promised land probably is hemispheric, but only the USA curently meets the description due to the type of government etc.

[krose]

Then there's the whole issue of no kings being on this land. I think Chavez is the closest thing we've had to that, but still no...

All the early colonies were part of kingdoms, and were governed by kings and queens until they gained independence.

The fact that these kings' castles were in Spain, France and England instead of the Americas seems a minor distinction. The lands and the people were ruled by kings.

[Helmuth]

I don't know how you concluded Columbus out of Nephi's vision which you quoted 1 nephi 13:12. Please explain this assumption. My interpretation would be Nephi saw Jehova in the Americas feeding his sheep.

Your interpretation is wrong.

When did Jehovah travel on the waters to America? He didn't. It has to be someone else.

[Sevenbak]

All the early colonies were part of kingdoms, and were governed by kings and queens until they gained independence.

The fact that these kings' castles were in Spain, France and England instead of the Americas seems a minor distinction. The lands and the people were ruled by kings.

Actually, the wording is very specific, about no king being raised up to the gentiles on this land.

2 Nephi 10:

11 And this land shall be a land of liberty unto the Gentiles, and there shall be no kings upon the land, who shall raise up unto the Gentiles.

12 And I will fortify this land aagainst all other nations.

Further, the early colonies as you mentioned are also referenced, as is the Revolutionary conflict to sever ties with old world kings.

1 Nephi 13:

16 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld that the Gentiles who had gone forth out of captivity did humble themselves before the Lord; and the power of the Lord was with them.

17 And I beheld that their mother Gentiles were gathered together upon the waters, and upon the land also, to battle against them.

18 And I beheld that the power of God was with them, and also that the wrath of God was upon all those that were gathered together against them to battle.

19 And I, Nephi, beheld that the Gentiles that had gone out of captivity were delivered by the power of God out of the hands of all other nations.

[Helmuth]

You don't get those 5 extra armies unless you have Central America.

Which you should probably already have, since the best way to get North America is to get South America first. The Lamanites could tell you that. The key is to hold Greenland and Kamchatka.

Is Greenland part of the promised land?

[krose]

Actually, the wording is very specific, about no king being raised up to the gentiles on this land.

2 Nephi 10:

11 And this land shall be a land of liberty unto the Gentiles, and there shall be no kings upon the land, who shall raise up unto the Gentiles.

12 And I will fortify this land aagainst all other nations.

Further, the early colonies as you mentioned are also referenced, as is the Revolutionary conflict to sever ties with old world kings.

1 Nephi 13:

16 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld that the Gentiles who had gone forth out of captivity did humble themselves before the Lord; and the power of the Lord was with them.

17 And I beheld that their mother Gentiles were gathered together upon the waters, and upon the land also, to battle against them.

18 And I beheld that the power of God was with them, and also that the wrath of God was upon all those that were gathered together against them to battle.

19 And I, Nephi, beheld that the Gentiles that had gone out of captivity were delivered by the power of God out of the hands of all other nations.

So it's back to the original question. These verses work great if you consider that they are specifically referencing the United States, but not the two choices that we're told are currently available - the small area in Central America, or the entire continents of North and South America. They don't work in either of those two options. These verses can only apply to the USA.

A dictator (there have been several in Latin America) is the same thing as a king in function and authority. The difference is the mere technicality of how they have chosen to be labeled.

[ERayR]

A dictator (there have been several in Latin America) is the same thing as a king in function and authority. The difference is the mere technicality of how they have chosen to be labeled.

So is a president only in the USA he has a limited tenure. As of now.

[Sevenbak]

So it's back to the original question. These verses work great if you consider that they are specifically referencing the United States, but not the two choices that we're told are currently available - the small area in Central America, or the entire continents of North and South America. They don't work in either of those two options. These verses can only apply to the USA.

Yet another reason a Mesoamerican LGT can not work, but the Joseph Smith model (Hemispheric) does.

The land of Zion is both north and south. Yes, these verses apply to the USA, but it doesn't discount the larger scope of promises for the land.

[krose]

So is a president only in the USA he has a limited tenure. As of now.

Nonsense. Our president has limited power, and is elected (with more than just one option on the ballot) rather than self-appointed.

[BCSpace]

Is Greenland part of the promised land?

Part of it's defense apparently. Unfortunately, we don't have Kamchatka.

In real life: NORAD, BMEWS, SOSUS, etc.

[cinepro]

Quibbling point, but Central America is part of North America. It says so in virtually every map, wikipedia, and the Risk game. You don't get those 5 extra armies unless you have Central America.

[cinepro]

Thoughts?

Sargon

(hat tip to Allen Wyatt for pointing this out)

We discussed this a while back here:

Christopher Columbus and the Book of Mormon

and again here:

Honduras, Mighty Nation of Gentiles

For those having difficulty picturing what the issue is, here's an illustration on where, exactly, Columbus landed: