Was God ever a sinner?

[Sargon]

Hi Hick Preacher. I'm glad to see you are backing up your comments with scripture, even if with scripture you don't believe in (BoM, D&C).

We see clues of God's true nature in the conditions of salvation He offers we humans and the terms that God is represented to us so that we feel secure in His promises.

That is, in Scripture Godâ??s ability to save we humans is connected with Him being God from Everlasting to Everlastingâ??a God who has always been God.

Moroni 7:

22 For behold, God knowing all things, being from everlasting to everlasting, behold, he sent angels to minister unto the children of men, to make manifest concerning the coming of Christ; and in Christ there should come every good thing.

Even in Moroni we humans with our temporal failings have looked to and described God, the Creator God who is Eternal (Always God) to be the hope of fallen man.

Moroni 7:22 doesn't connect God's eternal nature to his ability to save. Instead, Moroni connects God's eternal nature with his omniscience. This is a completely seperate issue. I think we can interpret "everlasting to everlasting" in this passage in the same way we interpret that phrase in Psalm 90, which I will address below.

Another example is with a broader body of different chapters of Mormon modern scripture called the Doctrine and Covenants.

Doctrine and Covenants (D&C) 20:17& 19 proclaim:

17 By these things we know that there is a God in heaven, who is infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting the same unchangeable God, the framer of heaven and earth, and all things which are in them;

18 And that he created man, male and female, after his own image and in his own likeness, created he them;

19 And gave unto them commandments that they should love and serve him, the only living and true God, and that he should be the only being whom they should worship.

These D&C conditions of viewing God is connected to Covenant promises-- and assurances that God will keep his promise.

What this definitely does not say is that God will keep his promises due to his infinite nature. Your interpretation simply isn't found in the text here. The scriptures refer to God as unchangeable, infinite, eternal, etc. in various places but those instances should be understood in the context in which they are used. These are not philosophical statements of God's ontological nature. This FAIRwiki explains this principle further: http://en.fairmormon.org/Unchanging_Nature_of_God

So, we should try to understand why God is called "infinite and eternal" in this section of D&C. If we look back to verses 8-12 of this same section we read:

8 And gave him power from on high, by the means which were before prepared, to translate the Book of Mormon;

9 Which contains a record of a fallen people, and the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles and to the Jews also;

10 Which was given by inspiration, and is confirmed to others by the ministering of angels, and is declared unto the world by themâ??

11 Proving to the world that the holy scriptures are true, and that God does inspire men and call them to his holy work in this age and generation, as well as in generations of old;

12 Thereby showing that he is the same God yesterday, today, and forever. Amen.

In this case, God is described as being consistent in his dispensing of the gospel in all generations. God is the same "yesterday, today, and forever" in the sense that he reveals his gospel in every generation. There is no reason to read further into this statement. This is not a statement addressing the possibility that God at some point in the distant past was not exactly what he is now. This only addresses the fact that for the purposes of revealing the gospel in every dispensation, God is unchanging.

Then, we see the exact same priniciple being taught right after, in verse 26. Therefore, the phrase in verse 17 describing God as "unchangeable" is framed by a discussion of God's consistency in revealing his message in every generation. It isn't a positive statement of God's ontological nature. We have to read it in context.

At any rate, that passage certainly says nothing about God's ability to save. We could pursue the meaning of "infinte and eternal", "everlasting to everlasting", and "unchangeable", but the bottom line is that those descriptions are not linked to God's ability to save in the passage. This after all is what this discussion is about.

As a general statement about your use of D&C, I don't find it correct to suggest that something Joseph Smith wrote in one place (D&C) contradicts something Joseph Smith said in another place (KFD). Rather, it seems more likely that Joseph knew better than anyone else what his scriptures said, and that his later statements was in harmony with his understanding of his earlier writings.

Heb 6:13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,

Heb 13: 8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Eph 3:

Thanks, but you'll have to elaborate on why you quoted these passages. I don't see how they apply.

Our Trust in God has to do with His strict Eternal nature, and Almighty Attributes

I understand your point. But, I still maintain that logically God doesn't have to be unchanging in his godhood in order to be able to save men. Rather, he merely has to have sufficient power. I don't see in the passages you've mentioned any sort of indication that saving men is something only possible for God because he has always been exactly the way he is.

Psalm 90& 91

1 Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations.

2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

3 Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men.

4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

5 Thou carriest them away as with a flood; they are as a sleep: in the morning they are like grass which groweth up.

6 In the morning it flourisheth, and groweth up; in the evening it is cut down, and withereth.

7 For we are consumed by thine anger, and by thy wrath are we troubled.

8 Thou hast set our iniquities before thee, our secret sins in the light of thy countenance.

9 For all our days are passed away in thy wrath: we spend our years as a tale that is told.

10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.

11 Who knoweth the power of thine anger? even according to thy fear, so is thy wrath.

12 So teach us to number our days, that we may apply our hearts unto wisdom.

13 Return, O LORD, how long? and let it repent thee concerning thy servants.

14 O satisfy us early with thy mercy; that we may rejoice and be glad all our days.

15 Make us glad according to the days wherein thou hast afflicted us, and the years wherein we have seen evil.

16 Let thy work appear unto thy servants, and thy glory unto their children.

17 And let the beauty of the LORD our God be upon us: and establish thou the work of our hands upon us; yea, the work of our hands establish thou it.

1 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.

2 I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.

--

The Hebrew word for â??everlastingâ? being used here is â??owlam or â??olam. The New Strongâ??s Exhaustive Concordance defines the word â??owlam like this:

5769 â??owlam; or â??olam

properly: concealed, i.e. the vanishing point

generally: time out of mind (past or future), i.e. (practically) eternity

frequentative: adv. (especially with prep. Pref.) always, alway(-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, |n-|) ever (-lasting, -more, of old), lasting long (time), (of ) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end).

Therefore, the phrase simply conveys a sense of longevity, even to the point that one can't fathom a time when it was not. But, it does not mean "infinite" in the Hellenized sense by which you read this passage. These were Hebrews, not Greeks. For more on this read this: http://lehislibrary.wordpress.com/2008/12/24/psalm-902/

[Calm]

I never gor ans answer so now I bring this question here.. May I please have an answer? IHS jim

I have a question for you. Do you believe that all things are possible with God? If not, why not.

[ready2prepare]

"That gets into some pretty deep theology that we don't know very much about." (President Hinckley)

"If God is not the kind of God who has the power to back up human repentance, the Atonement, and can forgive-- causing it to function by His sovern power-- then we are all lost." (Hick Preacher)

On these two points I agree 100%.

As man is, God once was...Jesus Christ fulfilled that role

(and I think we can all agree that He was sinless).

As God is, man may become...yes,

we may become joint-heirs with Christ (Romans 8:17)

Right now we are merely children with respect to understanding God and the things of God.

When we grow up spiritually to the point where we realize we really DON'T know much about this subject, (as President Hinckley says) then perhaps this discussion can become meaningful. (IMHO.)

[Calm]

I also wonder if James and his buddies will ever find something more interesting to do than to harp on this particular issue day in and day out. The dominance of this subject over at James's home turf (CARM) leads one to believe that they have some sick obsession with it.

While I disagree with Joseph Campbell on many things, I think he likely had it right when he stated the significant divergence between Western and Eastern religious belief was the relationship between Man and God.

I think the concept of Creator and Created and the impassable gulf between the two has been a fundamental obsession of Western religion since it appeared. This obsession of James and his "buddies" and their horror of LDS belief that bridges that gulf seems just another manifestation of it.

[Calm]

If God had to be an ordinary mortal man, and sin, and regenerate then this means that He is a different kind of being than previously supposed.

At least by mainstream Christian thought.

First, a God who has always been God, who is all knowing, all powerful, everywhere present. past-present-future is necessary for the Atonement to have saving power the negative effects of sin.

If this has already been asked and answered, feel free to ignore, but I'd like to know why. Just saying so doesn't count.

Second this is connected to the idea called Transcendence coupled with what has been termed Immanence. God's saving powers rely on Him having these attributes so that His Spirit can regenerate fallen human beings toward perfection.

Define "Transcendence" and "Immanence" and explain why these are necessary first and why they can't have been inherited by God the Father as they have been inherited by God the Son---after all, it is God the Son who is the Mediator of the Atonement.

If God is not the kind of God who has the power to back up human repentance, the Atonement, and can forgive-- causing it to function by His sovern power-- then we are all lost.

But there is nothing that I have seen scripturally speaking as well as logically speaking as long as one doesn't require a certain set of unprovable premises/assumptions that prevents God from from having infinite sovereign power over us and all his creations, even if this sovereign power was given to him by another or he acquired it on his own through an eternal process of progression.

[James Banta]

I am unaware of any thing in our doctrin that says taht God sinned. Did not Jesus live a sinless life yet he was mortal and knew of our pain and suffering? If so then why not the Father?

Lets take this to it's next logical connection.. You would do the same things to bring about the immorality and eternal life of man all the gods before you had done.. You would send your first born to atone for the sins of your children. He would be the Jesus of your "creation" and would be perfect.. Never the less His heavenly Father You would be a sinner.. Logically The Father, or His father, or His grandfather or. . . would have been a sinner and become a god like you had.. All the gods out there couldn't be the Jesus' of their fathers creation or there is no hope that you will ever inherit exaltation.. So be honest.. Your idea of god or your idea that a God can exist that was once a sinner is high.. There in go guarantee that the god you worship as the Father wasn't one of them.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

So what's wrong with God having once been a sinner? If He were once a savior of another earth though, as Joseph Smith implied, then I suppose He wouldn't have to have been a sinner.

That sort of sets a pattern that only the Savior of a world can be exalted.. I would say, why try if that is the case.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

God the Father (if indeed a man) as Christ said "All that I do I have seen the Father do". So if this were the case then no he never sinned just as Christ never sinned.

As I said this sets a pattern that only the Savior of a world can be exalted... You have no hope of exaltation.. IHS jim

[Joseph Antley]

That sort of sets a pattern that only the Savior of a world can be exalted.. I would say, why try if that is the case.. IHS jim

It doesn't set a pattern that only a Savior can be exalted. Especially since we are repeatedly told that our whole purpose is to be exalted, and we're not Saviors.

I once heard that things like these are called straw-mans.

[James Banta]

I don't know what for sure you are asking me.. It looks as though you have no answer for the Hope that is in you..

1 Peter 3:15

But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear

I asked and you just says I won't answer.. I gave you this verse so you could see that The Holy Spirit though the Apostle Peter says you should... Ok you turned it around on me.. Ok no Big deal..

I am a Christian. I have no thoughts or hopes of ever becoming a god in and way shape or form.. I find the idea to be blasphemous. I am clean only because of the Blood Jesus shed for me as my sacrifice for sin. I have no personal righteousness put will stand before God dressed in His righteousness.. IHS jim

[Calm]

As I said this sets a pattern that only the Savior of a world can be exalted... You have no hope of exaltation.. IHS jim

Perhaps by your interpretation of our beliefs.

OTOH, we have been given no knowledge of what exaltation will be like though it appears to me that if sealing is really such a big thing as it appears to be from the importance placed on it here on earth, that we will not be operating in a vacuum as if there is no one else there. If so, it is possible that we will work together as a Council of Gods (perhaps the result of the sealing power is the creation of this) and that Christ will be the Heavenly Father and we--though fully exalted, still subordinate to him as we will always be to the Father--involved in various other, currently unknown, but likely essential ways.

Even your "logic" does not require only one end, the one you claim is it.

[Joseph Antley]

I am a Christian. I have no thoughts or hopes of ever becoming a god in and way shape or form.. I find the idea to be blasphemous. I am clean only because of the Blood Jesus shed for me as my sacrifice for sin. I have no personal righteousness put will stand before God dressed in His righteousness.. IHS jim

Do you find the idea that you could ever be like Christ, as the Bible testifies, to be blasphemous? If you can be like Christ--and Christ is a God--then you can be like God.

God wants all of his children to have everything that he has. That's how much he loves you.

[James Banta]

Yes and yes.

Yes

Yes

Absolutely, all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. That is why Jesus Christ came to take upon Him the sins of the world of all who will believe and follow Him. Now a question for you, those who have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and repent and endure to the end... are they still sinners? Are they still tainted with sin? Do they really have clean hands and a pure heart? So I am asking is Christ able to purify us of all sin?

So what? If there was a Christ on the world in which heavenly Father became a God, could he not be cleansed and be without spot? Perhaps you are denying the atoning blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, or perhaps putting Him to open shame? Consider the following:How can we be purified as He is pure if there is any sin or taint of sin remaining in us? The kingdom of God is not filthy and no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of God. This speaks to the very heart and soul of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, is it really the power of God unto salvation? Thou our sins be crimson can they be made as white as the snow? This is really what you are asking, not that God was once a "vile sinner" but can we truly become whole again? I find it amazing that anyone who pretends to be a Christian could ask such a question!

Mankind has no righteousness at all.. All my righteousness are and filthy rags and fade as the leaf.. I must rely of the righteousness of Jesus because only he is without sin.. He is the only one not guilty of breaking the commandment in Matthew 5:48.. But if God isn't perfect then I guess none of us are in trouble.. Everyone gets to become a god...

You said I pretend to be a Christian... Is that right? I am a liar? I point out that the mormon God is a sinner and that makes me evil? It's your doctrine not mine.. Do you know me? Have we spent time talking and sharing about our lives or are your divine and can see my heart? I have come here to have you answer questions about your faith for me so I can know you better.. Is that a bad reason for being here? I have not attack you or anyone on the forum and yet you tell me I just pretend to have faith in Jesus.. I do not doubt your faith in the Jesus you believe in.. I just see that the Bible teaches that He isn't what mormonism say He is.. By His own words He claims to be the YHWH the I AM God that spoke to Moses from the burning bush. The same God that spoke through Isaiah saying that He s the Only God that exists that before Him there was no God formed and there never will be one formed in the future.. That is different than the God of Mormonism that says He was once a in a mortal existent the spirit child of some other God.. I lift Jesus up as the God that has always been the God who will always be.. The ONLY GOD THAT HAS EVER BEEN THE ONLY GOD THAT WILL EVER BE..

I have come here to understand how you can ignore the word of God and trust Joseph Smith.. Smith was suppose to be a servant of that God but ended up changing His nature though his own personal beliefs.. He would not submit to the righteousness of God..

[

b]Romans 1:22-23

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Does that sound familiar? Look here what Joseph Smith taught:

First, God himself, who sits enthroned in yonder heavens, is a man like unto one of yourselves, that is the great secret.... I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined that God was God from all eternity.... God himself; the Father of us all dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did.... You have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves.... No man can learn you more than what I have told you (Times and Seasons, vol. 5, pp.613-14).]

Joseph Smith, and being carried forward by the his church have "changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man..."

IHS jim

[James Banta]

Please spare us your transparent duplicity James Banta.

You've had this question answered a thousand times. You know the LDS response as predictably as we know you can't help but regurgitate it ad nauseum.

Your only purpose is to bellow your favorite mormon heresy from the rooftops once again, vainly hoping for it to have the effect you want it to, but never ever does.

This is yours, and every other cranky evangelical anti-mormon's, pet peeve for the past 200 years. This is the lone note on the piano you are capable of playing.

This is where your dialogue begins and ends. It's all so terribly boring.

Actually my favorite mormon heresy isn't that God was once a man but that man can become a god... That is not only a heresy to me it's blasphemy.. IHS jim

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Lets take this to it's next logical connection.. You would do the same things to bring about the immorality and eternal life of man all the gods before you had done.

Huh? The logical connection? You do realise there are more than one way to logically look at something dont you? You gave me a giant non answer. I asked for a specific kind of refrence not an excersise in logic.

. You would send your first born to atone for the sins of your children. He would be the Jesus of your "creation" and would be perfect.. Never the less His heavenly Father You would be a sinner.. Logically The Father, or His father, or His grandfather or. . . would have been a sinner and become a god like you had.. All the gods out there couldn't be the Jesus' of their fathers creation or there is no hope that you will ever inherit exaltation.. So be honest.. Your idea of god or your idea that a God can exist that was once a sinner is high.. There in go guarantee that the god you worship as the Father wasn't one of them.. IHS jim

[Lightbearer]

Mankind has no righteousness at all.. All my righteousness are and filthy rags and fade as the leaf.. I must rely of the righteousness of Jesus because only he is without sin.. He is the only one not guilty of breaking the commandment in Matthew 5:48.. But if God isn't perfect then I guess none of us are in trouble.. Everyone gets to become a god...

First let me just say that your concept that mankind is totally depraved is a false sectarian notion and has nothing to do with the true teachings of the Bible. What is most repugnant is your seeming hatred or self hatred of the creation of God that He made in HIS IMAGE and LIKENESS. In fact our dear brother Paul gives us a feel for what sort of being is man:

(Hebrews 2:6-12) "But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee."

That paints a different picture of mankind to me. Not one to be ashamed of, but one that will be judged by our fruits or rather the deeds done in the body. No we will not all become a God, because not all are willing to pay the price of faith, obedience, and following our Lord and our Savior in the straight and narrow path that leads to eternal life.

You said I pretend to be a Christian... Is that right? I am a liar? I point out that the mormon God is a sinner and that makes me evil? It's your doctrine not mine.. Do you know me? Have we spent time talking and sharing about our lives or are your divine and can see my heart? I have come here to have you answer questions about your faith for me so I can know you better.. Is that a bad reason for being here? I have not attack you or anyone on the forum and yet you tell me I just pretend to have faith in Jesus.. I do not doubt your faith in the Jesus you believe in..

Please spare us the false dramatics, you know full well what I was suggesting. You just did not have an answer for it that is why you must resort to accusations of a personal attack. You are right about one thing I do not know you, and you do not know me. However our Lord did say "by their fruits ye shall know them" and the only observable fruits on this message board is the things you write here. I like the smooth way you try to say that we LDS believe in "another" Jesus other than the one in the Bible. You say you have not attacked me, yet you try to disgrace the God of heaven by calling Him a sinner? Sorry but I take it very personal, what I said regarding your "Christianity" is to question whether you thought the blood of Christ could cleanse us sinners and make us holy and pure and without spot? You still have not answered that question, only to insult me and all others who believe that we are to show our faith by our works, and to say that anything anyone does that is righteous is nothing but "filthy rags" that is a contemptible statement. Where has Jesus Christ ever condemned good works? You reference a remark made by Isaiah lamenting the unbelief of Israel during his time and you yank it out of context and twist it to suit your false doctrine of salvation by grace alone and act like God does not desire us to keep His commandments when that is the entire message of the old and new testaments! He wants us to live holy and righteous lives but you take these vague references and try to say the exact opposite to what it actually is trying to teach.

I just see that the Bible teaches that He isn't what mormonism say He is.. By His own words He claims to be the YHWH the I AM God that spoke to Moses from the burning bush. The same God that spoke through Isaiah saying that He s the Only God that exists that before Him there was no God formed and there never will be one formed in the future.. That is different than the God of Mormonism that says He was once a in a mortal existent the spirit child of some other God.. I lift Jesus up as the God that has always been the God who will always be.. The ONLY GOD THAT HAS EVER BEEN THE ONLY GOD THAT WILL EVER BE..

You have no concept of who or what God is, the Bible teaches that God is a glorified and exalted man:

(Philipians 2:5-13) "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

Now does this not say that Jesus was exalted by God? Does it not also say that God can do the same for us? God dwells not in unholy temples therefore if He works His will in us then of necessity we are clean vessels, therefore our good works are not "filthy rags" but are an acceptable sacrifice to Him.

I have come here to understand how you can ignore the word of God and trust Joseph Smith.. Smith was suppose to be a servant of that God but ended up changing His nature though his own personal beliefs.. He would not submit to the righteousness of God..

[

b]Romans 1:22-23

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Does that sound familiar? Look here what Joseph Smith taught:

First, God himself, who sits enthroned in yonder heavens, is a man like unto one of yourselves, that is the great secret.... I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined that God was God from all eternity.... God himself; the Father of us all dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did.... You have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves.... No man can learn you more than what I have told you (Times and Seasons, vol. 5, pp.613-14).]

Joseph Smith, and being carried forward by the his church have "changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man..."

IHS jim

Sorry Jim, but this is nothing but ignorant posturing, we do not believe, nor did Joseph Smith believe or teach that God is a "corruptible man" any more than the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ, who had a body of flesh and bones, was a "corruptible man":

(Luke 24:36-43) "And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. And he took it, and did eat before them."

That is the type of God we worship, a resurrected glorified and perfect man, not the false god of the philosophers who is a great three-in-one spirit essence who can: "neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell." (see Deuteronomy 4:28)

Oh and yes we must learn to be Gods ourselves, and in order to do so we must overcome the world as stated here:

(Revelation 3:21) "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."

Now what is it to sit upon a throne, if not to reign as a king? Why do you think He is called King of Kings and Lord of Lords... he is not talking about earthly kingdoms for His kingdom is "not of this world." The Prophet Joseph Smith was only doing what Paul did on Mars Hill:

(Acts 17:22-31) "Then Paul stood in the midst of Marsâ?? hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with menâ??s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and manâ??s device. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead."

So my contention is that God, whether He was a Christ during His mortal life or just a follower of that Christ, is pure holy and without spot or blemish. Likewise all who trust in the Lord Jesus Christ and follow Him will likewise be made pure, holy and without spot or blemish... if you or anyone else does not believe this is possible, that through the blood of Jesus Christ we can be made totally clean and worthy to inherit the Kingdom of God then you do not believe in the Jesus of the Bible. This same idea was what Peter had in mind:

(1 Peter 1:13-16) "Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy."

We become holy by our faith in Jesus Christ and our repenting of our sins and following Him in obedience to the end. It is no blasphemy to strive to inherit what God has told us He has prepared for those who love Him. It is blasphemy to speak evil of sacred things, as in: "irreverent behavior toward anything held sacred." So by that definition the OP itself is an act of blasphemy.

[Doctor Steuss]

Lets take this to it's next logical connection.. You would do the same things to bring about the immorality and eternal life of man all the gods before you had done.. You would send your first born to atone for the sins of your children. He would be the Jesus of your "creation" and would be perfect.. Never the less His heavenly Father You would be a sinner.. Logically The Father, or His father, or His grandfather or. . . would have been a sinner and become a god like you had.. All the gods out there couldn't be the Jesus' of their fathers creation or there is no hope that you will ever inherit exaltation.. So be honest.. Your idea of god or your idea that a God can exist that was once a sinner is high.. There in go guarantee that the god you worship as the Father wasn't one of them.. IHS jim

I would think that logically, one would at least consider consulting LDS scripture -- which says Christ's atonement was infinite.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Actually my favorite mormon heresy isn't that God was once a man but that man can become a god... That is not only a heresy to me it's blasphemy.. IHS jim

AW that is too bad, it seems that the bible is on our side. Which you do have a problem with exaltation and we don't oh well.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

That sort of sets a pattern that only the Savior of a world can be exalted.. I would say, why try if that is the case.. IHS jim

James, this does no such thing. Good grief. "Why try if that is the case" Well it isn't the case.

[James Banta]

That is a good way to look at it cuz of the grand cleansing power of the atonement

and we are of the same species with great potential if we allow God to sanctify us.

I believe that the KFD has some merrit seeing how many Apostles have quoted or illuded

from it's teachings as well as placing it in our curriculum at least in part.

Like that of the gospel principles and priesthood / RS manual.

I think Joesph might have said more about it elsewhere as well as some others.

But do not remember the details.

Except that God said before Him there was no God, and there never would be one formed in the furure..God himself has told you there will be no other God's formed ever.. No matter if they were equal to Him or not.. NO OTHER GOD9S) will ever be formed!!!! IHS jim

[James Banta]

So many people get their panties in a wad about this hypothetical. Either repentance, atonement, and forgiveness function as stated in scripture, or they don't. If not, then we're all in trouble. What God has been doing throughout the eternities is pure speculation. Did He live a perfect life like His Son? Maybe; I don't know. Did He ever sin? Who knows--but since repentance, atonement, and forgiveness function as stated in scripture, then what difference does it make?

I don't get it.

You need to understand it has more to do with the promises of God than what mormons want for their eternal destiny.. He promised that He alone is God there is no other nor will any other be formed in the future.. If someone denys this they deny God..To deny God is to willingly open oneself to His judgment.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Please spare us your transparent duplicity James Banta.

You've had this question answered a thousand times. You know the LDS response as predictably as we know you can't help but regurgitate it ad nauseum.

Your only purpose is to bellow your favorite mormon heresy from the rooftops once again, vainly hoping for it to have the effect you want it to, but never ever does.

This is yours, and every other cranky evangelical anti-mormon's, pet peeve for the past 200 years. This is the lone note on the piano you are capable of playing.

This is where your dialogue begins and ends. It's all so terribly boring.

Am I not to see the anger and hate in your post? I am sorry you feel so offended by Biblical statements and questions to unbiblical mormon doctrines.. I and not the one arguing with you on this point it is all biblical... IHS jim

[James Banta]

It doesn't set a pattern that only a Savior can be exalted. Especially since we are repeatedly told that our whole purpose is to be exalted, and we're not Saviors.

I once heard that things like these are called straw-mans.

I agree that it's a silly statement that only Jesus can become a child of God when we are told in the Bible Jesus came to give us that opportunity.. But this becoming a God thing is anti-Christian, anti-Bible, and Anti God.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Perhaps by your interpretation of our beliefs.

OTOH, we have been given no knowledge of what exaltation will be like though it appears to me that if sealing is really such a big thing as it appears to be from the importance placed on it here on earth, that we will not be operating in a vacuum as if there is no one else there. If so, it is possible that we will work together as a Council of Gods (perhaps the result of the sealing power is the creation of this) and that Christ will be the Heavenly Father and we--though fully exalted, still subordinate to him as we will always be to the Father--involved in various other, currently unknown, but likely essential ways.

Even your "logic" does not require only one end, the one you claim is it.

Even if you don't like my logic on this doctrine.. It is how the world sees it.. It is how i see it .. You insist you can become a being like God is.. God said this will never be... Who should we believe Joseph Smith or the God of ALL creation the YHWH... IHS jim

[Daniel Peterson]

But this becoming a God thing is anti-Christian, anti-Bible, and Anti God.

Not so. For a brief survey of a tiny fraction of the relevant materials, see

http://mi.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=45&chapid=534

(Despite the note at the top of the page, I wrote this little piece. And there's much, much, much more where it came from.)