Was God ever a sinner?

[James Banta]

Do you find the idea that you could ever be like Christ, as the Bible testifies, to be blasphemous? If you can be like Christ--and Christ is a God--then you can be like God.

God wants all of his children to have everything that he has. That's how much he loves you.

God can recreate men into the image of His son but this will not make me a God.. No all this will be is take me away from the guilt and sin of the flesh and make me clean before Him by the works Jesus did on my behalf.. I will be like Jesus clean and pure before a Holy God but I will never be a God.. That is something God said will NEVER happen.. Am I to follow your faulty logic of trust what God has spoken? IHS jim

[Daniel Peterson]

I believe that Jordan Vajda's Partakers of the Divine Nature is entirely available on line, here:

http://mi.byu.edu/authors/?authorID=435

And Keith Norman's Deification: The Content of Athanasian Soteriology is, I think, available in its entirety on line, here:

http://mi.byu.edu/authors/?authorID=400

These will do for starters.

[BCSpace]

For instance, don't Mormons believe that God was once a man?

Yes. It is plain and basic LDS doctrine taught in the GP manual.

A: I wouldn't say that. There was a little couplet coined, "As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become." Now that's more of a couplet than anything else. That gets into some pretty deep theology that we don't know very much about (San Francisco Chronicle, April 13, 1997. p. 3/Z1).

See my siggy on doctrine. A propghet or apostle alone is not necessarily doctrine. The FP and Qo12 counseling together and publishing is the definition of official doctrine. Frankly it looks to me like Hinkley was just trying not to throw pearls before swine. He did a bad job of it.

God the Father was once a man on another planet who "passed the ordeals we are now passing through; he has received an experience, has suffered and enjoyed, and knows all that we know regarding the toils, sufferings, life and death of this mortality" (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young, 1997, p. 29).

Official doctrine.

God Himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. . . . (Teachings of the Presidents: Joseph Smith, 2007, p. 221).

Official doctrine.

"The Spirit of the Lord rested mightily upon meâ??the eyes of my understanding were opened, and I saw as clear as the sun at noon-day, with wonder and astonishment, the pathway of God and man." Elder Snow expressed this new found understanding in these words: "As man now is, God once was: As God now is, man may be." Later the Prophet Joseph Smith assured him: "Brother Snow, that is true gospel doctrine, and it is a revelation from God to you. . ." (Search These Commandments, Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, 1984, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, pp. 151-152)

Official doctrine.

I rescently asked this question based on this subject:

Are you a sinner,

Yes.

Can you perceive a time when you could be exalted and become as God was when He was first exalted? Can you perceive that you would advance in that exaltation? That you might have the opportunity to organize a world and populate it with your own Spirit children?

Sure. The Bible says I should (Philippians 2:5-6).

But Heston you are a sinner that much I have seen you admit!!! So if you grow to that priesthood office of godhood wouldn't the mortals in your "creation" say that once their father in heaven was a sinner? Wouldn't they be right? Therefore in mormon theology isn't it right to believe that the Father was once a sinner?

Yep. Not a problem. In the case of Jesus Christ that won't be the case of course as he was sinless.

I never gor ans answer so now I bring this question here.. May I please have an answer? IHS jim

Behold! Your answer above.

[SilverKnight]

Am I not to see the anger and hate in your post? I am sorry you feel so offended by Biblical statements and questions to unbiblical mormon doctrines.. I and not the one arguing with you on this point it is all biblical... IHS jim

The bible offends me no more than any other book.

What offends me are rude persons who have the nerve to call other people's religious beliefs heresy, while their own are just as baseless and indefensible especially when such persons are compelled to spend countless hours attempting to defile, slander and destroy the faith of perfectly decent people.

As a zealous evangelical mormon-critic, you know more about mormon version deification/eternal progression better than 99% of all mormons do. You know the historic, and current, thought on the subject better than most LDS stake presidents. It's the first chapter in your anti-mormon handbook. It's practically tattooed on your forehead. It drives you to madness. With psychotic obsession you are compelled to rave relentlessly about it.

[thesometimesaint]

James Banta:

From Jeff Lindsay:

To those who follow Christ and receive His grace and power, great promises are extended. We are promised that we can receive "the fullness of God" through the grace of Christ (Ephesians 3:19). Christ said that we can become one with Him, as He is one with the Father (John 17:20-23). Paul said that Christians can become "joint heirs with Christ" and be glorified with Him (Romans 8:14-18). He challenged us to pursue the example of Christ "who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God" (Philippian 2:5,6). Peter said that through Christ, we can "put on the divine nature" and receive great and precious promises (2 Peter 1:3-4). Those who follow Christ can become "like Him" (1 John 3:2), can "inherit all things" (Rev. 21:7), and can be kings and priests before God (Rev. 1:6), sitting with Christ in His throne (Rev. 3:21). Critics, how do you explain away such scriptures? They disclose an important aspect of early Christianity, the doctrine of "theosis," holding that man can become like God (much more evidence is given below).

[Joseph Antley]

God can recreate men into the image of His son but this will not make me a God.. No all this will be is take me away from the guilt and sin of the flesh and make me clean before Him by the works Jesus did on my behalf.. I will be like Jesus clean and pure before a Holy God but I will never be a God.. That is something God said will NEVER happen.. Am I to follow your faulty logic of trust what God has spoken? IHS jim

Perhaps the problem is your limited definition of what a "God" is. Here's what the scriptures say:

* We are the offspring of God. (Acts 17:29)

* We have the potential to be like Christ, who is a God. (1 John 3:2)

* We can be joint-heirs with Christ and be glorified with him. (Romans 8:17)

* We can partake of God's divine nature. (2 Peter 1:4)

* We will be changed from "glory to glory". (2 Corinthians 3:

* We will sit with God on his throne. (Revelation 3:21)

* "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the Most High." (Psalm 82:6)

It seems that the Latter-day Saints doctrine of exaltation has much more basis in scripture than you want to believe.

[Pahoran]

James,

Welcome to the forum. I hope you enjoy your stay. And I hope that you learn the ropes fairly quickly, so that your stay might be a little longer than it appears at the moment that it's likely to be.

You should know at the outset that while the moderation here is not nearly as draconian as what you are used to on Redneck Central, a.k.a. CARM, it is quite openly tilted towards our side. So you might want to lay off the gratuitous and insulting remarks a little.

You should also know that we are rather more interested in substantive content here than what you are generally used to. Mere jeers and sneers might pass muster over there, but they don't cut it here.

I agree that it's a silly statement that only Jesus can become a child of God when we are told in the Bible Jesus came to give us that opportunity.. But this becoming a God thing is anti-Christian, anti-Bible, and Anti God.. IHS jim

First question: if someone made that kind of idiotic remark about your brand of Christianity Lite over on CARM, how long would they last?

Second question: can you substantiate that claim? This is a call for references (or CFR) which, by the rules of this forum, you are obliged to comply with or else retract the claim.

And now a point: the premise of this entire thread is really meaningless in an LDS context. I don't expect you to understand that fact, because I don't expect you to have made the effort to learn anything about us, what we believe, how we live, or what is important to us.

Because, of course, you aren't genuinely engaged in any sort of "outreach" to us at all.

You are merely grandstanding for the benefit of your Prot fundy audience.

Isn't that true?

Regards,

Pahoran

[Hick Preacher]

Hi Hick Preacher. I'm glad to see you are backing up your comments with scripture, even if with scripture you don't believe in (BoM, D&C).

Moroni 7:22 doesn't connect God's eternal nature to his ability to save. Instead, Moroni connects God's eternal nature with his omniscience. This is a completely seperate issue. I think we can interpret "everlasting to everlasting" in this passage in the same way we interpret that phrase in Psalm 90, which I will address below.

What this definitely does not say is that God will keep his promises due to his infinite nature. Your interpretation simply isn't found in the text here. The scriptures refer to God as unchangeable, infinite, eternal, etc. in various places but those instances should be understood in the context in which they are used. These are not philosophical statements of God's ontological nature. This FAIRwiki explains this principle further: http://en.fairmormon.org/Unchanging_Nature_of_God

So, we should try to understand why God is called "infinite and eternal" in this section of D&C. If we look back to verses 8-12 of this same section we read:

In this case, God is described as being consistent in his dispensing of the gospel in all generations. God is the same "yesterday, today, and forever" in the sense that he reveals his gospel in every generation. There is no reason to read further into this statement. This is not a statement addressing the possibility that God at some point in the distant past was not exactly what he is now. This only addresses the fact that for the purposes of revealing the gospel in every dispensation, God is unchanging.

Then, we see the exact same priniciple being taught right after, in verse 26. Therefore, the phrase in verse 17 describing God as "unchangeable" is framed by a discussion of God's consistency in revealing his message in every generation. It isn't a positive statement of God's ontological nature. We have to read it in context.

At any rate, that passage certainly says nothing about God's ability to save. We could pursue the meaning of "infinte and eternal", "everlasting to everlasting", and "unchangeable", but the bottom line is that those descriptions are not linked to God's ability to save in the passage. This after all is what this discussion is about.

As a general statement about your use of D&C, I don't find it correct to suggest that something Joseph Smith wrote in one place (D&C) contradicts something Joseph Smith said in another place (KFD). Rather, it seems more likely that Joseph knew better than anyone else what his scriptures said, and that his later statements was in harmony with his understanding of his earlier writings.

Thanks, but you'll have to elaborate on why you quoted these passages. I don't see how they apply.

I understand your point. But, I still maintain that logically God doesn't have to be unchanging in his godhood in order to be able to save men. Rather, he merely has to have sufficient power. I don't see in the passages you've mentioned any sort of indication that saving men is something only possible for God because he has always been exactly the way he is.

The Hebrew word for â??everlastingâ? being used here is â??owlam or â??olam. The New Strongâ??s Exhaustive Concordance defines the word â??owlam like this:

Therefore, the phrase simply conveys a sense of longevity, even to the point that one can't fathom a time when it was not. But, it does not mean "infinite" in the Hellenized sense by which you read this passage. These were Hebrews, not Greeks. For more on this read this: http://lehislibrary.wordpress.com/2008/12/24/psalm-902/

Thank you Sargon--

I can see that my exposition of this idea needs some work- thanks for your analysis.

On God's omniscience--To me this infers God is strictly Eternal--how else could God know all things?

In order to be omniscience--all knowing, He would then also be all powerful, and also be all present God. These three are connected with God being strictly Eternal, always being God.

The overlap of these three attributes of an Eternal God has connection with human salvation is seen in Moroni 8-

17 And I am filled with charity, which is everlasting love; wherefore, all children are alike unto me; wherefore, I love little children with a perfect love; and they are all alike and partakers of salvation.

18 For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity.

19 Little children cannot repent; wherefore, it is awful wickedness to deny the pure mercies of God unto them, for they are all alive in him because of his mercy.

20 And he that saith that little children need baptism denieth the mercies of Christ, and setteth at naught the atonement of him and the power of his redemption.

And notice how this quality or attribute of God being Eternal from all Eternity is connected with mercy and salvation of humans.

So I am concerned that if we are to think that God was not always God--- we loose site of how God can save us.

[Hick Preacher]

Not so. For a brief survey of a tiny fraction of the relevant materials, see

http://mi.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=45&chapid=534

(Despite the note at the top of the page, I wrote this little piece. And there's much, much, much more where it came from.)

DCP, thanks for the Link

[Lightbearer]

God can recreate men into the image of His son but this will not make me a God.. No all this will be is take me away from the guilt and sin of the flesh and make me clean before Him by the works Jesus did on my behalf.. I will be like Jesus clean and pure before a Holy God but I will never be a God.. That is something God said will NEVER happen.. Am I to follow your faulty logic of trust what God has spoken? IHS jim

So you are limiting God? I have never seen a passage in any scripture that states that we can never become as He is, in fact every scripture I have ever read both ancient and modern on the subject say otherwise. Many of these passages I have quoted from the KJV of the Bible, yet you choose to ignore it rather than address it. I will take it that you have no answer to my arguments. You come on this board and slander the good name of a Prophet of God and try to vilify the Lord's Church and it's doctrines and you have the nerve to say we are blasphemers for teaching the very doctrine that Jesus Christ was crucified for teaching? That He "being a man made Himself God"! I do think you have answered your on OP question indirectly by saying that we (sinners) can become as pure and holy as Jesus Christ Himself, then you nullify your own argument that it is blasphemy to say God was "ever a sinner" in effect it is a moot point, quite irrelevant. You are admitting that if God were a sinner (in His mortal probation) then He could have become as clean and holy as Christ our Lord is and as we can become. Now concerning whether there be one God or many Paul stated:

(1 Corinthians 8:5-6) "For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."

Did you get that? Thought there be other Gods, UNTO US there is ONE God and ONE Lord. That is limiting only as far as we the children of our Father in Heaven are concerned, it says nothing about whether God the Father had a Father or whether we will be join heirs with Jesus Christ, and thus Gods in our own dominion. Exaltation is a glorious doctrine one that makes this existence worth all the struggle, the trials, the tribulations, the sacrifice. The atonement of Christ was not just a "damage control" operation of a faulty plan of God, it was the design of God that we His children go through this mortal probation to be tested and become as He is, a man of holiness. None of us are compelled to become as He is, that is why we are given agency and that is why He has many mansions for all of His children except those sons of perdition who reject wholly the things of God after having received it. Our Father's plan is not just to forgive our sins, but to take away our sins so that we might be a worthy, holy being as He is. God, men, and angels are all of the same species but are at different levels of progression. God has obtained the infinite, He has glory added upon His head forever and ever, and what is His work and glory? To bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man (His children) and that will be our work and glory if we will follow the path and live the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Huh? The logical connection? You do realise there are more than one way to logically look at something dont you? You gave me a giant non answer. I asked for a specific kind of refrence not an excersise in logic.

. You would send your first born to atone for the sins of your children. He would be the Jesus of your "creation" and would be perfect.. Never the less His heavenly Father You would be a sinner.. Logically The Father, or His father, or His grandfather or. . . would have been a sinner and become a god like you had.. All the gods out there couldn't be the Jesus' of their fathers creation or there is no hope that you will ever inherit exaltation.. So be honest.. Your idea of god or your idea that a God can exist that was once a sinner is high.. There in go guarantee that the god you worship as the Father wasn't one of them.. IHS jim

You are asuming that God the Father was a sinner, I am telling you that is not church doctrine. Speaking of Logiccal connection, When Jesus has a first born and sends his son to earth to atone for the sins of mankind on that earth, would you argue that Jesus had sinned and was exalted through the principals of the gospel as he knew it on this earth?

The answer is no. So why can't you extend that same courtecy to God the Father, after all in context of waht JS taught this is exactly what he is saying. That God the Father was the savior on his world for his God, yet you want to take it out of context and make it say something that it doesn't.

Now on the other side of the speculation, as others have pointed out, I have zero problem with a sinning man to become exalted through the prinicpals of the gospel. With that said, if I were to speculat I also have no problem if God the Father sinned and repented and was exalted from living the principals of the gospel. So the funny thing here is that you are getting all hung up on some idea that really doesn't matter to the LDS. I have looked at both sides of the coin and don't see an issue, the main difference is that one is church doctirne the other is specualtion.

Note: I am sure I spelled prinipal wrong here. Or I used the wrong "principal".

James you missed this reply to you.

Also you claimed.

" will be like Jesus clean and pure before a Holy God but I will never be a God.. That is something God said will NEVER happen.. Am I to follow your faulty logic of trust what God has spoken? IHS jim"

Were is it taught that God said we won't ever be like him? I can CAPS letters to, but you see MERELY ASSERTERING SOMETHING DOESN'T MAKE IT SO. CFR that God "said that man will never be a God.. That is something God said will NEVER happen.." Were is this new revelation found?

Please respond to both of my posts.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

dupe

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Trupe

[James Banta]

['Lightbearer' date=13 August 2009 - 08:40 AM' timestamp='1250174435' post='1208704979]

First let me just say that your concept that mankind is totally depraved is a false sectarian notion and has nothing to do with the true teachings of the Bible. What is most repugnant is your seeming hatred or self hatred of the creation of God that He made in HIS IMAGE and LIKENESS. In fact our dear brother Paul gives us a feel for what sort of being is man:That paints a different picture of mankind to me. Not one to be ashamed of, but one that will be judged by our fruits or rather the deeds done in the body. No we will not all become a God, because not all are willing to pay the price of faith, obedience, and following our Lord and our Savior in the straight and narrow path that leads to eternal life.

Wow that burned.. Here I was thinking that the Bible taught:

Romans 3:23

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God

Isaiah 53:6

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Isaiah 64:6

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Psalm 51:5

Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

WOW was I wrong, I should have been coming to you for truth and putting away that Bible.. I mean what did I think it was the word od God or something?

Please spare us the false dramatics, you know full well what I was suggesting. You just did not have an answer for it that is why you must resort to accusations of a personal attack.

I attacked you personally? That I have to see.. If you can show me that I did that though name calling or telling you of a divine punishment you will suffer I will leave after making sure I tell everyone that I am a liar and everything I say is garbage.. If not, nah I won't ask you to take that charge back I'll just remember who you are and who I am..

You are right about one thing I do not know you, and you do not know me. However our Lord did say "by their fruits ye shall know them" and the only observable fruits on this message board is the things you write here. I like the smooth way you try to say that we LDS believe in "another" Jesus other than the one in the Bible. You say you have not attacked me, yet you try to disgrace the God of heaven by calling Him a sinner? Sorry but I take it very personal, what I said regarding your "Christianity" is to question whether you thought the blood of Christ could cleanse us sinners and make us holy and pure and without spot? You still have not answered that question, only to insult me and all others who believe that we are to show our faith by our works, and to say that anything anyone does that is righteous is nothing but "filthy rags" that is a contemptible statement. Where has Jesus Christ ever condemned good works? You reference a remark made by Isaiah lamenting the unbelief of Israel during his time and you yank it out of context and twist it to suit your false doctrine of salvation by grace alone and act like God does not desire us to keep His commandments when that is the entire message of the old and new testaments! He wants us to live holy and righteous lives but you take these vague references and try to say the exact opposite to what it actually is trying to teach.

Here is a news flash.. Disbelieving the doctrines of mormonism is not a personal attack on you.. You have taken Matthew 7:16 out of context.. They are speaking od false prophets.. I do not claim the spiritual gift of prophecy so I am not mentioned in this context..

Matthew 7:15-16

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

You have no concept of who or what God is, the Bible teaches that God is a glorified and exalted man:Now does this not say that Jesus was exalted by God? Does it not also say that God can do the same for us? God dwells not in unholy temples therefore if He works His will in us then of necessity we are clean vessels, therefore our good works are not "filthy rags" but are an acceptable sacrifice to Him.

At least this time things aren't out of context just misunderstanding, just ignored..

[

b]Num 23:19

God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

There I go again trusting in the Bible...

Sorry Jim, but this is nothing but ignorant posturing, we do not believe, nor did Joseph Smith believe or teach that God is a "corruptible man" any more than the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ, who had a body of flesh and bones, was a "corruptible man":That is the type of God we worship, a resurrected glorified and perfect man, not the false god of the philosophers who is a great three-in-one spirit essence who can: "neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell." (see Deuteronomy 4:28)

I quoted a verse of the Bible I didn't saw God is a corruptible man anymore than the Bible does look at the verse again

Roman 1:23

And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Clear enough isn't it.. The image made like to corruptible man. Joseph Smith created a god that looked just like him even though the Bible clearly says that God is Spirit...

Oh and yes we must learn to be Gods ourselves, and in order to do so we must overcome the world as stated here:Now what is it to sit upon a throne, if not to reign as a king? Why do you think He is called King of Kings and Lord of Lords... he is not talking about earthly kingdoms for His kingdom is "not of this world." The Prophet Joseph Smith was only doing what Paul did on Mars Hill:So my contention is that God, whether He was a Christ during His mortal life or just a follower of that Christ, is pure holy and without spot or blemish. Likewise all who trust in the Lord Jesus Christ and follow Him will likewise be made pure, holy and without spot or blemish... if you or anyone else does not believe this is possible, that through the blood of Jesus Christ we can be made totally clean and worthy to inherit the Kingdom of God then you do not believe in the Jesus of the Bible. This same idea was what Peter had in mind:We become holy by our faith in Jesus Christ and our repenting of our sins and following Him in obedience to the end. It is no blasphemy to strive to inherit what God has told us He has prepared for those who love Him. It is blasphemy to speak evil of sacred things, as in: "irreverent behavior toward anything held sacred." So by that definition the OP itself is an act of blasphemy.

I agree with the Bible AGAIN.. God will make us kings and priests unto God.. We will rein with Him in His Kingdom. No where is it ever said that we will be made gods in some other kingdom of our own.. We will be kings and priests in HIS! So saying He is King of kings and Lord of lords i will agree can mean us as will as the kings and lords of men on the earth. I will stall say that any being that was a creation of another God on some other world earthlike or

heavenlike is NOT the God of the Bible.. For that God tell us that NO OTHER GOD EXISTED in the past and NO OTHER GOD WILL EXIST in the future.. It is you and not me that is picking and choosing what he wants to believe from the Bible.. I believe it all while you delete or at least ignore the parts that don't conform to mormon doctrine as proclaimed my Joseph Smith..

As for Jesus being a man that became God, you have it backward.. Jesus was God who became man.. And this for His glory in rescuing men who had betrayed he in their sin already.. That is a concept mormons have trouble with I don't blame you for not understanding. IHS jim

[thesometimesaint]

James Banta:

Does your "ALL" include Jesus the Christ?

So if we do not agree with YOUR interpretation of the Bible we are damned to Hell? What a lovely Christian YOU are.

YOU came onto a self admitted LDS Discussion Board. Insult our beliefs, insult our Scriptures, tell us we're going to Hell for not believing YOUR interpretation of the Bible. But an attack on YOUR interpretation of the Bible is an attack on YOU personally?

Here's a newsflash for you. The LDS believe the Bible.

Here is another newsflash for you. You are a spirit too. Also Luke 24:39

"Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

Since God does not lie. Then God did not sin. Answers your question.

Since we will be like Him, sit on His throne, and be crowned with righteousness. I fail to see much of a distinction between that and the statement of Jesus the Christ that "Ye ARE Gods". Right there in the Bible.

The LDS do not see Father in Heaven as a corruptible man either. But as a glorified, resurrected, perfect man as Jesus the Christ. As Jesus the Christ promised to us.

The LDS believe that we are children of God the Father. Our children, whether in this life or the next, are also children of God the Father.

Actually Jesus the Christ says "Ye are Gods". It's right there in the Bible.

[robuchan]

Was God the Father once a man?

Yes But no parent has ever yet on this earth been the parent of a spirit,

because we are so far yet from perfection.

Remember what was said a while ago, that "As man is, God once was;

and as God is, man may become."

They came with the definite understanding

that they could return to become like God and go forward

in their great development and progress.

Could you produce a spirit? Has anyone whom you know ever produced a spirit?

This is a power not given to mortal man, so there is much for us to learn...

My brethren, God bless you as we carry forward our lives toward perfection

so that we may attain and receive the blessings that we are promised,

that we may reach godhood eventually and have the blessings

appertaining thereto. Spencer W. Kimball

Ensign, May 1977, 49 Our Great Potential

Was God the Father Perfect as a man?

"These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple. It is

the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to

know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once

a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as

Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible."

I wish I was in a suitable place to tell it, and that I had the trump of an archangel,

so that I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease for ever.

What did Jesus say? (Mark it, Elder Rigdon!) The Scriptures inform us that Jesus said,

As the Father hath power in Himself, even so hath the Son power -- to do what?

Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious -- in a manner to lay down His body and take it up again.

Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again.

Do we believe it? If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible.

The Scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined

powers of earth and hell together to refute it.

What did Jesus do? Why; I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds came rolling into existence.

My Father worked out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom,

I shall present it to my Father, so that he may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt him in glory.

He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take his place, and thereby become exalted myself.

So that Jesus treads in the tracks of his Father, and inherits what God did before;

and God is thus glorified and exalted in the salvation and exaltation of all his children. "

KFD

It appears that JS believed and taught a sinless sacrifice

was given by our Father when he worked out his salvation and an atonement

like unto our Savior.

That was 32 years ago. Can you find anything since then that supports your position?

[robuchan]

Not so. For a brief survey of a tiny fraction of the relevant materials, see

http://mi.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=45&chapid=534

(Despite the note at the top of the page, I wrote this little piece. And there's much, much, much more where it came from.)

This is the lower case g vs upper case G issue. The man can become a God is anti-Bible. Man can become a god is not anti-Bible. And really it's pretty meaningless. Not meaningless in importance but meaningless in defining a distinction between Mormons and Christians. All it means is that man becomes joint heirs with Christ. Fairly innocuous doctrine. Modern church leaders and apologists have made a brilliant move on this one. Go from heretic to mainstream by changing the case from upper to lower. The new Gospel Principles manual changes is another big step in that direction. Brilliant. Sounds like Dan Peterson agrees with my doctrine which is in direct opposition to the Lightbearer/jkfrost doctrine.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

That was 32 years ago. Can you find anything since then that supports your position?

Strange, so just because it was said 32 years ago it must be false? THat sounds like wht you are saying.

Christ said things 2000 years ago, are those false too?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Wow that burned.. Here I was thinking that the Bible taught:

Romans 3:23

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God

Isaiah 53:6

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Isaiah 64:6

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Psalm 51:5

Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

WOW was I wrong, I should have been coming to you for truth and putting away that Bible.. I mean what did I think it was the word od God or something?

IHS jim

Good luck with those proof text. I suppose you think little children will go to hell if they die before accpeting Jesus, after all, "all have sinned". Right?

IT is impossible Jim, for all to have sinned as not all have the law and you cannot sin in ignorance. That is biblical. So it seems there is a contradiction in the bible... well at least your in interpretation of the bible.

Total depravitiy = total BS.

[thesometimesaint]

robuchan:

As I will receive a glorified, resurrected, perfected body, will be crowned with righteousness, sit on Gods' Thrown, to rule and reign with God forever and ever. I see little difference in the case of a letter.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

robuchan:

As I will receive a glorified, resurrected, perfected body, will be crowned with righteousness, sit on Gods' Thrown, to rule and reign with God forever and ever. I see little difference in the case of a letter.

Amen!!!

[robuchan]

robuchan:

As I will receive a glorified, resurrected, perfected body, will be crowned with righteousness, sit on Gods' Thrown, to rule and reign with God forever and ever. I see little difference in the case of a letter.

Please don't ignore there's a problem by downplaying the doctrinal difference. It's major major major difference.

little case g = mainstream Christian

upper case G = extreme heresy to a Christian

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Please don't ignore there's a problem by downplaying the doctrinal difference. It's major major major difference.

little case g = mainstream Christian

upper case G = extreme heresy to a Christian

I think we as LDS do understand this, but after all it has been said that some one thought "it not robbery to be equal with God".

[robuchan]

I think we as LDS do understand this, but after all it has been said that some one thought "it not robbery to be equal with God".

No we as LDS do not understand this. That's why you have active members of the church with opposite views on this, and no clarifications from the leaders.

You have someone in the thread saying the doctrine is anti-Christian, anti-Bible, heresy. Then DP refers back to a Bob Millet PR piece about how we're really just like Christians after all. We either are or we're not. It's either G or it's g. Somebody tell us what it is.

[thesometimesaint]

robuchan:

Given what God has already promised me. Just who is the heretic?

IE. When Mr. Anthony gives me a million Dollars US, it makes little difference to me whether you call it "Greenbacks", "Bucks", "Smackers" or just dollars.