Was God ever a sinner?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

By the authority of being able to read.

Why are you hiding behind a call for authority and others saying ONLY THE PROPHET can read?

Get off your hobby horse thinking you will be a God like our heavenly Father some day.

You fail to feel ashamed. Reading is an awesome responsibility. Do the best you can.

This is a straw man argument. No one has claimed that "only the prophet can read".

It would do you well to atleast understand what is being stated. Oh and I wasn't the one that made the argument that scirpture is not for private interpretation. It was Peter.

As far as or not "thinking you will be a God like our heavenly Father some day" I am unaware of any verse of scipture that confims or denies this.

So far all we have is that we will sit on the Fathers throne and the we will have an eternal increase, worlds with out end and eternal lives. Also we will be joint-heirs with Christ.

[Lightbearer]

By the authority of being able to read.

Why are you hiding behind a call for authority and others saying ONLY THE PROPHET can read?

Get off your hobby horse thinking you will be a God like our heavenly Father some day.

You fail to feel ashamed. Reading is an awesome responsibility. Do the best you can.

Being able to read? That's funny, obviously you must have some difficulty unless your reading is only confined to Anti-Mormon literature. The only hobby horse I see is the one you are riding that denies a basic doctrine of the Church. Here is something to read that was actually published by the Church, (thus making it doctrine):

(â??Chapter 47: Exaltation,â? Gospel Principles, 301) "What Is Exaltation?

Exaltation is eternal life, the kind of life God lives. He lives in great glory. He is perfect. He possesses all knowledge and all wisdom. He is the Father of spirit children. He is a creator. We can become like our Heavenly Father. This is exaltation.If we prove faithful to the Lord, we will live in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom of heaven. We will become exalted, just like our Heavenly Father. Exaltation is the greatest gift that Heavenly Father can give his children (see D&C 14:7)."

So yes the Prophet can read, and I can read and millions of LDS can read what is taught as doctrine in the Gospel Essentials Sunday School class. I am not ashamed of the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ, for it is the power of God unto salvation and exaltation in our Father's kingdom.

[Pahoran]

By the authority of being able to read.

Why are you hiding behind a call for authority and others saying ONLY THE PROPHET can read?

Get off your hobby horse thinking you will be a God like our heavenly Father some day.

You fail to feel ashamed. Reading is an awesome responsibility. Do the best you can.

Daycat,

here in this forum, we welcome alternative viewpoints. Even unusual, if not downright heterodox, Mormon viewpoints.

But when you fling out your pontifical pronouncements complete with sneering dismissal of anyone who does not unquestioningly accept your rather startling interpretations, all on the strength of your vast history of ten whole posts, you are testing, if not abusing, the welcome a little.

Just a word to the wise.

Regards,

Pahoran

[daycat]

Daycat,

Just a word to the wise.

Regards,

Pahoran

Sorry I missed your earlier post where you parsed the scripture for me. Here is is again:

Doctrine and Covenants Section 29 said:

30 But remember that all my judgments are not given unto men; and as the words have gone forth out of my mouth even so shall they be fulfilled, that the first shall be last, and that the last shall be first in all things whatsoever I have created by the word of my power, which is the power of my Spirit.

31 For by the power of my Spirit created I them; yea, all things both spiritual and temporal

32 First spiritual, secondly temporal, which is the beginning of my work; and again, first temporal, and secondly spiritual, which is the last of my work

33 Speaking unto you that you may naturally understand; but unto myself my works have no end, neither beginning; but it is given unto you that ye may understand, because ye have asked it of me and are agreed.

34 Wherefore, verily I say unto you that all things unto me are spiritual, and not at any time have I given unto you a law which was temporal; neither any man, nor the children of men; neither Adam, your father, whom I created.

35 Behold, I gave unto him that he should be an agent unto himself; and I gave unto him commandment, but no temporal commandment gave I unto him, for my commandments are spiritual; they are not natural nor temporal, neither carnal nor sensual.

I am glad that you quoted this much.

You think that because the word THING is used it somehow cannot be referring to us? But we had to be part of the four stages of creation that he refers to and those things were all part of it.

Please tell me how LDS doctrine accounts for these FOUR stages of creation. Two in the beginning and two in the end? Of course I already know and have known for twenty-five years.

I did not see any comments on the Adam and Eve logic of their being our spirit body parents according to the narrative and chronology of extant LDS creation scripture. If you cannot best me I see that you are already prepared to expel me. Sad.

Joseph Smith was willing to submit to being corrected by one word of scripture, and said, he would renounce it as far as he promulgated it. Somehow that can no longer happen. Why? (see TPJS deseret book pg 327)

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I did not see any comments on the Adam and Eve logic of their being our spirit body parents according to the narrative and chronology of extant LDS creation scripture. If you cannot best me I see that you are already prepared to expel me. Sad.

That is because simply put, the verses of scripture do not say what you want it to say. And no one is here to expell you for unorthodox LDS teachings.

You are certainly entitled to your view of what you think the D&C teaches and we are under no obligation to take what you say as scripture or doctrine. It would help if you could find some offical teaching from the church on what you are teaching. If you can't find anything that is offical that should tell you something about what you are trying to peddle here.

[daycat]

That is because simply put, the verses of scripture do not say what you want it to say. And no one is here to expell you for unorthodox LDS teachings.

You are certainly entitled to your view of what you think the D&C teaches and we are under no obligation to take what you say as scripture or doctrine. It would help if you could find some offical teaching from the church on what you are teaching. If you can't find anything that is offical that should tell you something about what you are trying to peddle here.

There is absolutely no possibility for a new thought and a greater understanding to occur in the LDS Church?

If it has not already been considered it should never be considered and can never be considered, worlds without end?

Please allow me to try>

Abraham 3:24

24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space thee, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;

Notice that these are all organized intelligences whom the Lord had appointed to their independent spheres of existence, by the power of his Spirit, by giving them the knowledge thereof;

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29-30

29.Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

30. All thuth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise ther is no existence.

We are placed into independent spheres of existence by God as are all things that exist. Therefore this placing is not by way of seeds or and act of progeny. It is a command of God speaking and man is created. This it the proto stage of our existence, before we were born to seed bearing exalted parents with a spirit body.

Moses 7:32

And the Lord said unto Enoch: Behold these thy brethren; they are the workmanship of mine own hands, and I gave unto them their knowledge, in the day I created them; and in the Garden of Eden, gave I unto man his agency;

Here we learn that it was in fact Jesus Christ who spoke and we were created. We are the workmanship of his hands and herein he is our Maker. This is why the Book of Mormon refers to Jesus Christ as the Very Eternal Father. All three of the Godhead are the Very Eternal Father as they acted in concert together to speak and man with all other things were created in the beginning. They are the father of that which is eternal or cannot be created or made which is appointed by them into existence by placing all things into independent spheres, giving each the knowledge of their respective spheres of existence. Worlds are made in this way.

Mosiah 7:27-28

And because he said unto them that Christ was the God, the Father of all things, and said that he should take upon him the image of man, and it should be th eimage after which man was created in teh beginning: ...

28. And now, because he said this, they did put him to death...

Mosiah 116:15

15. Teach them that redemption cometh through Christ the Lord, who is the very Eternal Father. Amen.

This phrase was so common in the Book of Mormon, and yet so confusing to early Mormons, that is was removed more often than it was kept.

The narrative of creation scriptures has the world created which we has already quoted as having been accomplished by Christ, the one like unto God, with all those who were still WITH him and Adam and Eve are created in the likeness and image of God. John the Beloved said that when we see God we shall be like him meaning of the same glory, or resurrected unto the likeness and image of God. So the creation of Adam and Eve was actually their resurrection to eternal lives. Hence they were given a world and commanded to multiply and replenish it. But this was the creation of all things in heaven before there was any flesh upon the earth. So it is a spiritual creation that Adam and Eve are accomplishing under the commandments of God. (Including Christ)

Moses 3:1

1. Thus the heaven and the earth were finished and all the host of them.

2. And on the seventh day I, God, ended my work, and all THINGS which I had made; and I rested on the seventh day from all my work, and all THINGS which I had made were finished, and I, God, saw that they were good.

This was the second stage of creation IN THE BEGINNING and before man was placed into the Garden of Eden. The first stage of the organization of intelligence was accomplished without seeds and is spiritual, this second stage in the beginning was accomplished by the continuation of the seeds and is counted temporal because it is accomplished by seeds and not strictly by the word of God's power, but since it came by way of God's commandments it is yet counted a work of God.

Eve needed her seed replenished and multiplied unto her having exhausted all her conceptions after her resurrection by the time all things were finished and God rested. So the Garden scene is accomplished so that the woman can have her seed multiplies and replenished before as she falls from exaltation to begin the continuation of the seeds IN THE WORLD. Thus it is said that exaltation is the continuation of the seeds, plural, both in the world and out of the world are they to continue.....D&C 132:30

But there was no life yet upon the earth (dirt earth, not the world above the earth that is spiritual)

Moses 3:7

7. And I, the Lord God, formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul, the first flesh upon the earth, the first man also; nevertheless, all THINGS were before created; but spiritually were they crated and made according to my word.

What was happening here was the spirit of Adam was in fact his resurrected glorified body that was mixed with the coarse elements (dirt, dust) of the physical dimension of earth to act as a TETHER, to keep him upon the earth and remove his memory, and basically give him a break, a vacation away from the kids, billion, and billion of them. And of course set up the next stage of creation which is the first of the two which are the last of the works of God. Resurrection is the final stage of the four stages of creation, which is also counted as the first in the next generation of the heavens. When you are resurrected unto exaltation it will be as we read about Adam and Eve in our own creation scriptures to be timed with organized intelligence ready for spirit body births.

Only one God and Father of all things. Even the very Eternal Father, Son and Holy Ghost which is one God infinite and eternal.

D&C 29:30-31

30. But remember that all my judgments are not given unto man; and as the words have gone forth out of my mouth even so shall they be fulfilled, that the first shall be last, and that the last shall be first in all things whatsoever I have created by the word of my power, which is the power of my Spirit,.

31. For by the power of my Spirit created I them; yea, all things both spiritual and temporal.

32. First spiritual,[by the word of his power to come forth and exist in an independent sphere]} secondly temporal,[by commandment and by way of the seeds] which is the beginning of my work: and again, first temporal, [by commandment and by way of the seeds] and secondly spiritual, [by the word of his power to come forth unto your resurrection] which is the last of my work.

With this knowledge of God and how things actually were accomplished it is therefore inappropriate for there to be a doctrine that says men shall be like God the very Eternal Father. So do what ever you need to do to fix this great error. I am not insisting that you MUST fix it. Do what you want. It was given for you to be agents unto yourself.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

There is absolutely no possibility for a new thought and a greater understanding to occur in the LDS Church?

If it has not already been considered it should never be considered and can never be considered,

I am all for new thought, I am just saying that you cannot try and trumpit this stuff as if it is offical or doctrinal. Going down the road you are going down with your attitude is to go down the road of apostacy.

I am not saying your interpretion is invalid or we can't learn from it. All I am saying is that you are trying to foist this upon us and we don't have to accept it. Can I disagree with you on this? Is that ok? Or are you going to have a problem if I do? I am also not claiming you are in a state of apostacy.

With this knowledge of God and how things actually were accomplished it is therefore inappropriate for there to be a doctrine that says men shall be like God the very Eternal Father. So do what ever you need to do to fix this great error. I am not insisting that you MUST fix it. Do what you want. It was given for you to be agents unto yourself.

I reject this as there are other scirptures that tell us that "when we see Him we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is". This seems to contradict your very view. You are welcome to it I just can't reconcile what you are teaching with other verses of scripture.

[daycat]

I am all for new thought, I am just saying that you cannot try and trumpit this stuff as if it is offical or doctrinal. Going down the road you are going down with your attitude is to go down the road of apostacy.

I am not saying your interpretion is invalid or we can't learn from it. All I am saying is that you are trying to foist this upon us and we don't have to accept it. Can I disagree with you on this? Is that ok? Or are you going to have a problem if I do? I am also not claiming you are in a state of apostacy.

I reject this as there are other scirptures that tell us that "when we see Him we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is". This seems to contradict your very view. You are welcome to it I just can't reconcile what you are teaching with other verses of scripture.

You have thought about it for five minutes and rejected it. Fine. You are a quick study.

John's scripture of being like him is not saying that we shall become Gods equal to the very Eternal Father. It is a matter of glory in this likeness as Adam and Ever were made in the image and likeness of God in the beginning. Same glory different job. God creates by the word of his power, exaltation procreates the seeds both in the world and out of the world. I wont argue further. I will only answer any question that might come up.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

You have thought about it for five minutes and rejected it. Fine. You are a quick study.

John's scripture of being like him is not saying that we shall become Gods equal to the very Eternal Father. It is a matter of glory in this likeness as Adam and Ever were made in the image and likeness of God in the beginning. Same glory different job. God creates by the word of his power, exaltation procreates the seeds both in the world and out of the world. I wont argue further. I will only answer any question that might come up.

It would seem I am a fast learner, or perhaps I am quite familair with various arguements for this doctrine. Though what you are trying to exlain is really nothing new (the idea that we wont become like God or be a god) the way you have tried to justify that belief is a new one for me.

Now you are moving the goal posts. You and I have never once stated "equal with God" until this came up from you. I reject taht we will be equal with God. That is not LDS doctrine nor has any prophet or or GA in the LDS belief system that I am aware of asserted such. Although Paul did state that "He (Jesus) thought it not robbery to be euqal with God".

BTW I didn't think we were arguing, I thought we were discussing issues and what is laid out on the table. I am some what confused here.

If God creates by the word of His power and you state that we will never be like him, how then in the D&C state that "we will have worlds with out end" What does that mean to you?

Take care.

[daycat]

It would seem I am a fast learner, or perhaps I am quite familair with various arguements for this doctrine. Though what you are trying to exlain is really nothing new (the idea that we wont become like God or be a god) the way you have tried to justify that belief is a new one for me.

Now you are moving the goal posts. You and I have never once stated "equal with God" until this came up from you. I reject taht we will be equal with God. That is not LDS doctrine nor has any prophet or or GA in the LDS belief system that I am aware of asserted such. Although Paul did state that "He (Jesus) thought it not robbery to be euqal with God".

BTW I didn't think we were arguing, I thought we were discussing issues and what is laid out on the table. I am some what confused here.

If God creates by the word of His power and you state that we will never be like him, how then in the D&C state that "we will have worlds with out end" What does that mean to you?

Take care.

I was not trying to move the goalposts. Do you mean we can never be equal with God because he is on top of our pyramid and every god under him makes him higher and therefore we can never be as great a God as he is? What quality do we lack in current LDS doctrine that makes for us not being equal? I am not sure I understand how you think about this.

CFR I have looked in my Shapiro LDS Exhaustive Concordance for "worlds without number" and find it only in Moses where Christ says it about himself. Where is it ever attributed to man's destiny? We will go from one exaltation to another, if that is what you mean, but I do not see us having more than one world at a time. You are not applying D&C 76:112 are you? I think that is just a pejorative kind of saying.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I was not trying to move the goalposts. Do you mean we can never be equal with God because he is on top of our pyramid and every god under him makes him higher and therefore we can never be as great a God as he is? What quality do we lack in current LDS doctrine that makes for us not being equal? I am not sure I understand how you think about this.

You had asserted that

"With this knowledge of God and how things actually were accomplished it is therefore inappropriate for there to be a doctrine that says men shall be like God"

Then you stated

"John's scripture of being like him is not saying that we shall become Gods equal to the very Eternal Father."

You claimed in one post that it is "inappropriate for there to be a doctrine that says men shall be like God" then once I quoted that verse of scripture in John then you changed it to "John's scripture of being like him is not saying that we shall become Gods equal to the very Eternal Father." As you can see you moved the goal posts.

God will always be our God and we will never equal him or be above him. But it is scripture that we will be gods.

CFR I have looked in my Shapiro LDS Exhaustive Concordance for "worlds without number" and find it only in Moses where Christ says it about himself. Where is it ever attributed to man's destiny? We will go from one exaltation to another, if that is what you mean, but I do not see us having more than one world at a time. You are not applying D&C 76:112 are you? I think that is just a pejorative kind of saying.

My bad I did quote wrongly here.

Here is what I am refering too.

55 But if she will not abide this commandment, then shall my servant Joseph do all things for her, even as he hath said; and I will bless him and multiply him and give unto him an hundredfold in this world, of fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children, and crowns of eternal lives in the eternal worlds .

What does the bolded part mean?

It is more appropraite to state that "I am not appling D&C 76:112 the way you interpret it".

This last sentance doesn't make much sense. "I think that is just a pejorative kind of saying."

[daycat]

Well. Let me try this. It's a shot in the dark. I cannot get the reply to work for me.

You had asserted that

"With this knowledge of God and how things actually were accomplished it is therefore inappropriate for there to be a doctrine that says men shall be like God"

Then you stated

"John's scripture of being like him is not saying that we shall become Gods equal to the very Eternal Father."

You claimed in one post that it is "inappropriate for there to be a doctrine that says men shall be like God" then once I quoted that verse of scripture in John then you changed it to "John's scripture of being like him is not saying that we shall become Gods equal to the very Eternal Father." As you can see you moved the goal posts.

God will always be our God and we will never equal him or be above him. But it is scripture that we will be gods.

Sorry, but I dont follow that. I mentioned John's scripture before you did. Like, equal, the same as, on the same eternal round of a course. Maybe I can begin again to say that exalted beings are resurrected as was Adam and Eve in the beginning in a likeness and image of God and yet they do not do what God does. They only multiply and replenish. They continue the seeds of eternal lives. Plural because there are two kinds of seeds that those who have eternal life propagate, both in the world and out of the world. Meaning spirit body seed and physical body seed. These exalted parents can be called gods because they, LIKE God, lay down their lives in the physical event to continue on their course. And so they can go from exaltation to exaltation. The angels are subject unto them.

But we never create by the word of God's power which are his commandments. We never call forth intelligence out of light and truth to appoint it independent spheres of existence. We are never a God Almighty to anyone. We are always subject to Christ and God. And there is only one Christ and one God the Father and one Holy Ghost throughout all eternity. This is what I believe. I know that all LDS standard works support this without exception.

55 But if she will not abide this commandment, then shall my servant Joseph do all things for her, even as he hath said; and I will bless him and multiply him and give unto him an hundredfold in this world, of fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children, and crowns of eternal lives in the eternal worlds .

What does the bolded part mean?

D&C 132:22-24

22. For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me.

23. But if ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; tht where I am ye shall be also.

24. This is eternal lives to know the only wise and true God and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent, I am he, Receive ye, therefore, my law.

Eternal lives is exaltation and the continuation of the lives, the seeds, in the world and out of the world are they to continue. Nobody truly and fully KNOWS God and Jesus Christ EXCEPT those with exaltation who will be where THEY are. It's as if everyone else can hear about God and be taught about God but only those who will be with him shall really know God. Because they received him in this world and began their path to KNOW God.

We see, therefore, how singular it is to be with God and to know him. Exalted being do live two kinds of lives. One upon a throne over their own world where they preside over all the children born of them. And the other is to be the first flesh upon the physical world where all their spirit children shall abide in their times and seasons.

This last sentance doesn't make much sense. "I think that is just a pejorative kind of saying."

Dont I have that word right? I think so. Pejoration is to worsen. So it is bad that they will not be with Christ and worse that they will not be with Christ, worlds without end. You see?

[DLClark]

In the San Francisco Chronicle interview,President Hinckley was asked:

Q: There are some significant differences in your beliefs. For instance, don't Mormons believe that God was once a man?

A: I wouldn't say that. There was a little couplet coined, "As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become." Now that's more of a couplet than anything else. That gets into some pretty deep theology that we don't know very much about (San Francisco Chronicle, April 13, 1997. p. 3/Z1).

Most ever "Prophet" before Mr Hinckley took the office was sure about this point..

God the Father was once a man on another planet who "passed the ordeals we are now passing through; he has received an experience, has suffered and enjoyed, and knows all that we know regarding the toils, sufferings, life and death of this mortality" (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young, 1997, p. 29).

God Himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. . . . (Teachings of the Presidents: Joseph Smith, 2007, p. 221).

"The Spirit of the Lord rested mightily upon meâ??the eyes of my understanding were opened, and I saw as clear as the sun at noon-day, with wonder and astonishment, the pathway of God and man." Elder Snow expressed this new found understanding in these words: "As man now is, God once was: As God now is, man may be." Later the Prophet Joseph Smith assured him: "Brother Snow, that is true gospel doctrine, and it is a revelation from God to you. . ." (Search These Commandments, Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, 1984, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, pp. 151-152)

I rescently asked this question based on this subject:

Are you a sinner, Can you perceive a time when you could be exalted and become as God was when He was first exalted? Can you perceive that you would advance in that exaltation? That you might have the opportunity to organize a world and populate it with your own Spirit children? But Heston you are a sinner that much I have seen you admit!!! So if you grow to that priesthood office of godhood wouldn't the mortals in your "creation" say that once their father in heaven was a sinner? Wouldn't they be right? Therefore in mormon theology isn't it right to believe that the Father was once a sinner?

I never gor ans answer so now I bring this question here.. May I please have an answer? IHS jim

If you understand the Law of Eternal Progression as taught in Mormon theology then yes God was a sinner at one time. He is also a created being and therefor a demi-god. Insn't the creator greater than the creation?

[LeSellers]

If you understand the Law of Eternal Progression as taught in Mormon theology then yes God was a sinner at one time. He is also a created being and therefor a demi-god. Insn't the creator greater than the creation?

Oh, thank you. How could I ever have missed this? I guess having been LDS for sixty years makes me unqualified to decide what I, as a Latter-day Saint, believe. You cannot understand how wonderful it is to have you, an outsider, explain my beliefs. Oh! wondrous day!

Lehi

P.S.: For the sarcasm challenged, this is sarcasm in its fullest. LS

P.P.S.: It is rare for LDSs to use the word "theology". In fact, until the IV or V, there was no such thing as "theology" among followers of Jesus Christ. It was only when people started substituting their intellects and man-made philosophy for revelation and scripture that "theology" became necessary. LS