Hick Preacher Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 A man can be a God, but man cannot be The God.BTW---Ps 8:4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
Lightbearer Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 A man can be a God, but man cannot be The God.Are you suggesting that LDS think we can replace God the Eternal Father? That is not what becoming a God is all about, it is about becoming as our Father is, a glorified and exalted man. As we are exalted it exalts our Father forever and ever and adds to His glory and honor. We do not become independent Gods running around the universe but we are linked in a patriarchal chain from father to son that goes on forever and ever, this is what the sealing power is all about. What think you of the following:(John 17:1-26) "These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them."We are never without the Father and the Son, if we are exalted we become one with them, the reason we can be infinite and eternal is because of the plan of the Father which the Son of God makes active in our lives because of the atonement. The "oneness" of God spans the eternities we will always be Sons of our Father and our Sons will become Fathers... that is what it means to become a God.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 Cuz it says "God is not a Man..."Um yeah, are you seriously trying to make the argeument? Because that verse of scripture actual seems to back up the LDS postition that God is a man, as the verse continues that God is not a man that he lies niether the Son of God.It never says that God is not a man period.It is one of the worst prooftext I have ever seen.I take it that you are just spouting (i.e. not being serious) what some evangelical critics have done in the past. I just have never heard a good reason for the supposed argument for this verse agains the LDS.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 A man can be a God, but man cannot be The God.Sounds good to me. I agree with you here. However as we delve into this a little bit more we might part ways with our agreeance. I think more may be needed to expand on this idea.
Hick Preacher Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 Are you suggesting that LDS think we can replace God the Eternal Father? That is not what becoming a God is all about, it is about becoming as our Father is, a glorified and exalted man. As we are exalted it exalts our Father forever and ever and adds to His glory and honor. We do not become independent Gods running around the universe but we are linked in a patriarchal chain from father to son that goes on forever and ever, this is what the sealing power is all about. What think you of the following:We are never without the Father and the Son, if we are exalted we become one with them, the reason we can be infinite and eternal is because of the plan of the Father which the Son of God makes active in our lives because of the atonement. The "oneness" of God spans the eternities we will always be Sons of our Father and our Sons will become Fathers... that is what it means to become a God.It sounds like you ultimately do not consider Heavenly Father to be The Eternal God, but rather a God in an association of many Gods who exist with in the times of the 'ages' or created worlds. Formally the English term 'Eternal' contains an idea beyond time. That is timeless, having no beginning and no end. A finite thing cannot become strictly 'eternal'. However it can become ageless continuing forever forward.When you mention 'eternities' it is non-sense in formal terms. How can there be many eternal anything? Eternal is Eternal there is only One Eternity. It sounds like you are using the root term 'eternal' like the idea of 'ages' or 'eons'-(Greek Aeon). We humans can gain the Life of the Ages--- oddly mistranslated "Eternal Life" in the KJV, but we will not become 'eternal' like The God is Eternal.
Hick Preacher Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 Um yeah, are you seriously trying to make the argeument? Because that verse of scripture actual seems to back up the LDS postition that God is a man, as the verse continues that God is not a man that he lies niether the Son of God.It never says that God is not a man period.It is one of the worst prooftext I have ever seen.No not seriously trying to make that argument.We first need to define 'Man' and even 'Son of Man'. And also define "God".
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 No not seriously trying to make that argument.We first need to define 'Man' and even 'Son of Man'. And also define "God".To some extent I agree with you on the definitions. However one could get bogged down with just rying to define Man or God or Son. I like to stick to simple, easy, and normal definitions of the words. Perhaps just how Webster would define them. From there we can expand if needed to.
Hick Preacher Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 Sounds good to me. I agree with you here. However as we delve into this a little bit more we might part ways with our agreeance. I think more may be needed to expand on this idea.A God is simply an administrator over some other group of beings.Ge 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.Notice how Jehovah just calls Himself '"A GOD" unto thee'The term "God" is a very vague term overall.It we say "The God" is helps. If we say 'Jehovah is the Lord', or if we say 'Jehovah is One Lord 'it also helps define what we are talking about.Afterall-- Moses was made a god or like a god -- due to a social administrative position.Ex 7:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.Likewise the term "Man" is also vague-- it is even a kind of title-- such as--'you are the Man'
Hick Preacher Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 To some extent I agree with you on the definitions. However one could get bogged down with just rying to define Man or God or Son. I like to stick to simple, easy, and normal definitions of the words. Perhaps just how Webster would define them. From there we can expand if needed to.Mola Ram Suda Ram-- common language fails when it comes to cross cultural theological discussions.In Mormonism even the term "Eternal" has its various esoteric meanings.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 One is a Proper Noun, the other is an Adjective. That makes sence to me.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 A God is simply an administrator over some other group of beings.Ge 17:7 Notice how Jehovah just calls Himself '"A GOD" unto thee'The term "God" is a very vague term overall.It we say "The God" is helps. If we say 'Jehovah is the Lord', or if we say 'Jehovah is One Lord 'it also helps define what we are talking about.Afterall-- Moses was made a god or like a god -- due to a social administrative position.Ex 7:1 Likewise the term "Man" is also vague-- it is even a kind of title-- such as--'you are the Man'I think you get it just fine. I have no problem with any of this, infact it seems as if I have heard this some were in this very thread... Oh yeah that is right, I said something similar.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 Mola Ram Suda Ram-- common language fails when it comes to cross cultural theological discussions.In Mormonism even the term "Eternal" has its various esoteric meanings.I don't know that "Eternal" really means all that much different to us than to you. I think sometimes how the word is used though is were we might disagree.Give me an example so I can see were you are comming from. THanks.
Hick Preacher Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 I don't know that "Eternal" really means all that much different to us than to you. I think sometimes how the word is used though is were we might disagree.Give me an example so I can see were you are comming from. THanks.Eternal God: means that God has always been God-- forever past, forever forward. Christ is called Eternal God in the Book of Mormon.Eternal Life: a King James Bible Mistranslation which should have been translated: "Life of the Ages"-- future forward."From Eternity to Eternity"---(D&C 76:4) a non-sense term that should actually be phrased "from age to age"There is only One Eternity, but there are many ages or eons of time. Time is one thing-- Eternity is timelessness."From all Eternity..." a non-sense phrase found in the King Follett Discourse. There is only Eternity, there is no such thing as part of Eternity. Perhaps Joseph Smith meant to say "from all ages past...". If so it is still not meaningful because God and Christ in the Book of Mormon are already known as timeless-Eternal God.
Pahoran Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 One more person lying about the doctrine.I agree that one of us is, at least, mistaken.Doctrine and Covenants, Section 132:20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them. As I said: small g = orthodox LDS doctrine per Section 132.Go on, call me a liar again.Regards,Pahoran
Pahoran Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 Whatever happened to our good buddy Jimmy?Is he standing in front of a mirror practicing his "Ah hayave siyunned" speech?Regards,Pahoran
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 Eternal God: means that God has always been God-- forever past, forever forward. Christ is called Eternal God in the Book of Mormon.Eternal Life: a King James Bible Mistranslation which should have been translated: "Life of the Ages"-- future forward."From Eternity to Eternity"---(D&C 76:4) a non-sense term that should actually be phrased "from age to age"There is only One Eternity, but there are many ages or eons of time. Time is one thing-- Eternity is timelessness."From all Eternity..." a non-sense phrase found in the King Follett Discourse. There is only Eternity, there is no such thing as part of Eternity. Perhaps Joseph Smith meant to say "from all ages past...". If so it is still not meaningful because God and Christ in the Book of Mormon are already known as timeless-Eternal God.Consider one other possiblity. If something is eternal is there a past present or future? What if it is all present and nothing else? Here is another one,Once I have kids will there ever be a time that I was not a father? The answer is Yes and no. And no I am not being silly here. From Eternity to Eternity has a meaning of.... Think of a line graph. Draw an arrow one going to the left and one to the right. Both go one forever in their respective direction. That is what "from all eternity to all eternity" means.Trying to figure out what "Eternal" or "infinite" means is impossible to comprehend in this mortal life. It really is all a moot point trying to talk about it as you can't comprehend it.Any way I love discussion about this kind of thing. There are so many angles to it. I really wouldn't call the different definitions as I would say a different way to look at it.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 Whatever happened to our good buddy Jimmy?Is he standing in front of a mirror practicing his "Ah hayave siyunned" speech?Regards,PahoranHe bailed, I guess he got offended over.... well I am not sure. I guess he couldn't take it thought he could dish it out.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 I agree that one of us is, at least, mistaken.Doctrine and Covenants, Section 132:20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them. As I said: small g = orthodox LDS doctrine per Section 132.Go on, call me a liar again.Regards,PahoranI was scratching my head over this one. Anywell?
Lightbearer Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 It sounds like you ultimately do not consider Heavenly Father to be The Eternal God, but rather a God in an association of many Gods who exist with in the times of the 'ages' or created worlds. Of course He is the Eternal God but what you fail to realize is we are eternal in nature, our spirits were not created out of nothing, we are subjected to our Father just as Jesus is subject to His Father, who is our Father and God as well as His.Formally the English term 'Eternal' contains an idea beyond time. That is timeless, having no beginning and no end. I am well aware what the meaning of eternal is. A finite thing cannot become strictly 'eternal'. However it can become ageless continuing forever forward.What is the definition of a finite thing? "Having bounds or limits; not infinite; measurable." While we are mortal we can be considered finite, but our spirits are not necessarily so. They have always existed, and if we attain exaltation both body and spirit will have no bounds or limits. Having bounds or limits in a spiritual since could also mean damnation, so if we are saved or rather exalted then we have no more bounds.When you mention 'eternities' it is non-sense in formal terms. How can there be many eternal anything? Eternal is Eternal there is only One Eternity. It sounds like you are using the root term 'eternal' like the idea of 'ages' or 'eons'-(Greek Aeon). We humans can gain the Life of the Ages--- oddly mistranslated "Eternal Life" in the KJV, but we will not become 'eternal' like The God is Eternal.What gives you the idea that "eternal" could mean only "ONE" ? Sounds like double talk to me, or perhaps greek philosophy. So you claim you believe the Bible only insofar as it is translated correctly? Well we have found common ground after all! But who says that your translation is better than mine? You claim scholars, I claim prophets... wonder who God considers to be right?
Hick Preacher Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 Consider one other possiblity. If something is eternal is there a past present or future? What if it is all present and nothing else? Here is another one,Once I have kids will there ever be a time that I was not a father? The answer is Yes and no. And no I am not being silly here. From Eternity to Eternity has a meaning of.... Think of a line graph. Draw an arrow one going to the left and one to the right. Both go one forever in their respective direction. That is what "from all eternity to all eternity" means.Trying to figure out what "Eternal" or "infinite" means is impossible to comprehend in this mortal life. It really is all a moot point trying to talk about it as you can't comprehend it.Any way I love discussion about this kind of thing. There are so many angles to it. I really wouldn't call the different definitions as I would say a different way to look at it.Yes there are many angles to it indeed. I suspect that God created time itself. The word Aeon is translated either worlds or ages. Ages and Worlds is all about time. For example via the KJV-Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.This whole issue about God being once a mortal man-- or even a sinner is all about our Eternal security.It is a question about the notion of God being dependent on outside factors, or God being completely in control of all factors.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 This whole issue about God being once a mortal man-- or even a sinner is all about our Eternal security.This is a currious statement, can you expound on it?It is a question about the notion of God being dependent on outside factors, or God being completely in control of all factors.This is certainly one way to look at it.
Hick Preacher Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 Of course He is the Eternal God but what you fail to realize is we are eternal in nature, our spirits were not created out of nothing, we are subjected to our Father just as Jesus is subject to His Father, who is our Father and God as well as His. I am well aware what the meaning of eternal is. What is the definition of a finite thing? "Having bounds or limits; not infinite; measurable." While we are mortal we can be considered finite, but our spirits are not necessarily so. They have always existed, and if we attain exaltation both body and spirit will have no bounds or limits. Having bounds or limits in a spiritual since could also mean damnation, so if we are saved or rather exalted then we have no more bounds.What gives you the idea that "eternal" could mean only "ONE" ? Sounds like double talk to me, or perhaps greek philosophy. So you claim you believe the Bible only insofar as it is translated correctly? Well we have found common ground after all! But who says that your translation is better than mine? You claim scholars, I claim prophets... wonder who God considers to be right?I am not certain of this idea that we have always existed. We depend upon time to exist. I think that God created time, ages and the worlds. A scholar is often a prophet and visa versa. Those who wrote the creeds may also have been inspired.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 I am not certain of this idea that we have always existed. We depend upon time to exist. I think that God created time, ages and the worlds. A scholar is often a prophet and visa versa. Those who wrote the creeds may also have been inspired.THis is interesting, Can you expound upon the idea of "we depend upon time to exsist". That is a concept I am not familiar with.What scriptural support do you find for "God created time". I cannot find very strong support for that concept. I am sure you have something. I just want to see it.
Hick Preacher Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 This is a currious statement, can you expound on it?The question is if God is a dependent being. Does God rely on anything that can change or be taken away from Him? Could God be pressed, harmed, or motivated to change-- and our promises of salvation be lost? Forever is a long long time-- and even the smallest risks will eventually result in failure. If God is Strictly Eternal then our salvation is secure. If God is not Strictly Eternal then our promise of salvation will eventually fail.
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.