Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted August 14, 2009 Posted August 14, 2009 I don't think you're off base as opposed to mainstream Mormonism. I think the majority are with you. But I think you're wrong and so are they. I don't think God is a title. I don't think man will become God. I think there is one God and there always has been and always will be one God. I also think that is what will become the official Mormon church doctrine over time, and at some point in the future people will be excommunicated for preaching what you believe.I honeslty don't think you understand what I am saying. That is ok. I highly doubt people will be excommunicated for thinking what I have just proposed. I wish you could offer some actual criticisms of my post instead of just a hand wave that you "just think I am wrong". IOW were am I wrong. Why is God being a title not something taht works? Title is more than just a word you know, it comes with power and responsibilties.Just like being a Dad, there is more to the word then just "hey he is a Dad".
robuchan Posted August 14, 2009 Posted August 14, 2009 Joint-heir to what though?You really don't see alternate interpretations to "joint heir" that don't result in man becoming God? Occam's Razor. The simplest interpretation is that we simply inherit a portion of Heaven. No?
robuchan Posted August 14, 2009 Posted August 14, 2009 I honeslty don't think you understand what I am saying. That is ok. I highly doubt people will be excommunicated for thinking what I have just proposed. I wish you could offer some actual criticisms of my post instead of just a hand wave that you "just think I am wrong". IOW were am I wrong. Why is God being a title not something taht works? Title is more than just a word you know, it comes with power and responsibilties.Just like being a Dad, there is more to the word then just "hey he is a Dad".It's not a title, because there is just one.
jkfrost Posted August 14, 2009 Posted August 14, 2009 Except that God said before Him there was no God, and there never would be one formed in the furure..God himself has told you there will be no other God's formed ever.. No matter if they were equal to Him or not.. NO OTHER GOD9S) will ever be formed!!!! IHS jimI believe you are referring to Isaiah where he teaches us about the preeminence of Jehovahand how he is above the idols that they worshiped at the time.11 Ps 86: 10 God is alone and yet with the gods...There is none like the Lord among the gods ,how can he be alone and yet among the gods?because none of these gods are like unto him in power none able to save except the God of Israel.He is alone in that he has the power and they are nothing!Ps 86: 6 Give ear, O LORD, unto my prayer; and attend to the voice of my supplications.7 In the day of my trouble I will call upon thee: for thou wilt answer me.8 Among the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord; neither are there any works like unto thy works.9 All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name.10 For thou art great, and doest wondrous things: thou art God alone.11 Teach me thy way, O LORD; I will walk in thy truth: unite my heart to fear thy name.12 I will praise thee, O Lord my God, with all my heart: and I will glorify thy name for evermore.Ex 15: 9 The enemy said, I will pursue, I will overtake, I will divide the spoil;my lust shall be satisfied upon them; I will draw my sword, my hand shall destroy them.10 Thou didst blow with thy wind, the sea covered them: they sank as lead in the mighty waters.11Who is like unto thee, O LORD,among the gods?who is like thee,glorious in holiness,fearful in praises, doing wonders?12 Thou stretchedst out thy right hand, the earth swallowed them.13 Thou in thy mercy hast led forth the people which thou hast redeemed:thou hast guided them in thy strength unto thy holy habitation.14 The people shall hear, and be afraid: sorrow shall take hold on the inhabitants of Palestina.
jkfrost Posted August 14, 2009 Posted August 14, 2009 Except that God said before Him there was no God, and there never would be one formed in the furure..God himself has told you there will be no other God's formed ever.. No matter if they were equal to Him or not.. NO OTHER GOD9S) will ever be formed!!!! IHS jimIsaiah 41 - 44 no God no Savior I am the onesame story God wants Israel to worship him not these idols made with hands.He is the one who can save them and tell them what is to come.He alone has the power, these idols are nothing.Isaiah 41:21-29 NIVIsaiah begins both pronouncments by setting a scene in a courtroom.The Lord begins speaking and addresses his remarks to the nations of the earth,particularly those who worship pagan gods;21 "Present your case," says the LORD."Set forth your arguments," says Jacob's King.22 "Bring in your idols to tell uswhat is going to happen.Tell us what the former things were,so that we may consider themand know their final outcome.Or declare to us the things to come,23 tell us what the future holds,so we may know that you are gods.Do something, whether good or bad,so that we will be dismayed and filled with fear.24 But you are less than nothingand your works are utterly worthless;he who chooses you is detestable.God tell then that it was He who is the creatorthe redeemer and the only God who fortold the future of Israel not these worthless gods.26 Who told of this from the beginning, so we could know,or beforehand, so we could say, 'He was right'?No one told of this,no one foretold it,no one heard any words from you.28 I look but there is no oneno one among them to give counsel,no one to give answer when I ask them.29 See, they are all false!Their deeds amount to nothing;their images are but wind and confusion.Isaiah 42:1-9;17;22-29 NIVsame story8 "I am the LORD; that is my name!I will not give my glory to anotheror my praise to idols.9 See, the former things have taken place,and new things I declare;before they spring into beingI announce them to you."...17 But those who trust in idols,who say to images, 'You are our gods,'will be turned back in utter shame.Isaiah 43:1-26 NIV1 But now, this is what the LORD sayshe who created you, O Jacob,he who formed you, O Israel:"Fear not, for I have redeemed you;I have summoned you by name; you are mine.3 For I am the LORD, your God,the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;...7 everyone who is called by my name,whom I created for my glory,whom I formed and made."== Poetic Isaiah continues his case in this court as judge and juryHe is the only one who can save Israel, not these graven images.He is the only one with power - in fact he created all that iseven what you make your idols from.There is none like him before or after.He is NOT like these foreign gods.10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD,"and my servant whom I have chosen,so that you may know and believe meand understand that I am he.Before me no god was formed,nor will there be one after me11 I, even I, am the LORD,and apart from me there is no savior.12 I have revealed and saved and proclaimedI, and not some foreign god among you.You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "that I am God.vs 19 - 26 and Isa 44:2-4 NIVI have made you mine called you my own protected youand yet you do not honored me with your sacrifices.even so I will forgive youIsaiah 44:2-21;24 NIVIsa 44 NIV is a great chapter7 Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it.Let him declare and lay out before mewhat has happened since I established my ancient people,and what is yet to comeyes, let him foretell what will come.8 Do not tremble, do not be afraid.Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago?You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me?No, there is no other Rock; I know not one."9 All who make idols are nothing,and the things they treasure are worthless.Those who would speak up for them are blind;they are ignorant, to their own shame.10 Who shapes a god and casts an idol,which can profit him nothing?14 He cut down cedars,or perhaps took a cypress or oak.He let it grow among the trees of the forest,or planted a pine, and the rain made it grow.15 It is man's fuel for burning;some of it he takes and warms himself,he kindles a fire and bakes bread.But he also fashions a god and worships it;he makes an idol and bows down to it.16 Half of the wood he burns in the fire;over it he prepares his meal,he roasts his meat and eats his fill.He also warms himself and says,"Ah! I am warm; I see the fire."17 From the rest he makes a god, his idol;he bows down to it and worships.He prays to it and says,"Save me; you are my god."18 They know nothing, they understand nothing;their eyes are plastered over so they cannot see,and their minds closed so they cannot understand.19 No one stops to think,no one has the knowledge or understanding to say,"Half of it I used for fuel;I even baked bread over its coals,I roasted meat and I ate.Shall I make a detestable thing from what is left?Shall I bow down to a block of wood?"21 "Remember these things, O Jacob,for you are my servant, O Israel.I have made you, you are my servant;O Israel, I will not forget you.24 "This is what the LORD saysyour Redeemer, who formed you in the womb:I am the LORD,who has made all things,who alone stretched out the heavens,who spread out the earth by myself,
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted August 14, 2009 Posted August 14, 2009 It's not a title, because there is just one.That is the point entirly. Think on that for a bit. I don't mean that in a rude way either. I am talking about "there is just one" aspect of your post.The fact that there is just one God does not make the title or name "God" any less. Anyway I have given a lot of info and I think it takes a little bit of reading and understanding (not that you lack that I am speaking generally) to see it.Take careI have yet another after thought to help illustrate my point. When God the Father talks to His Father, and is asked "who are you"? What do you suppose His response would be? Would it be I am God? or would it be I am god? If God the Father's Father is a God/god what his his name , God or god? The answer is a subtle one.
Hick Preacher Posted August 15, 2009 Posted August 15, 2009 Sorry, but I don't find transcendence or immanence in my Bible.Nor 'Eternal Progression'.
Pahoran Posted August 15, 2009 Posted August 15, 2009 Please don't ignore there's a problem by downplaying the doctrinal difference. It's major major major difference. little case g = mainstream Christianupper case G = extreme heresy to a ChristianSo not only do we have the anti-Mormons trying to make us offenders for a word, we now see a self-appointed guardian of future (speculative) orthodoxy trying to make us offenders for a letter.Unbelievable!Now for the facts:Lower case g: orthodox LDS doctrine per Doctrine and Covenants 132.Upper case G: triviality quibbled over by latter-day Pharisees.Regards,Pahoran
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted August 16, 2009 Posted August 16, 2009 So not only do we have the anti-Mormons trying to make us offenders for a word, we now see a self-appointed guardian of future (speculative) orthodoxy trying to make us offenders for a letter.Unbelievable!Now for the facts:Lower case g: orthodox LDS doctrine per Doctrine and Covenants 132.Upper case G: triviality quibbled over by latter-day Pharisees.Regards,PahoranI got to say that you get it. That was my point I even went into some discussion and mentioned a few times that god with a "G" is speculative.
Pahoran Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 But know what you are right.. I am not welcome here you don't want any resistance in your mormon party I'm done you can enjoy this as a victroy... I have sinned against you in comeing here you can't stand someone disagreeing with the doctrine of mormonism that can be questioned from a Biblical standpoint. I have given you a few thing to think about but I am not up for being accused of being in a place I don't belong. You must be a returned missionary, I have noticed that mormon missionaries can't handle a discussion either. This is the thrid time i have tried to come here and talk civilly with you or anyone else that isn't so hateful that they can do it. I see that such a thing at least with you in not possible... Bye IHS jimI hope you enjoy your pity party.Nobody said you weren't welcome here, little Jimmy. But it might just do you some good to start by accepting the fact that we know our faith better than you do. And to realise that we do in fact read the Bible -- according to some, we read it more than EV's do -- and are confident that our doctrine can at least be reconciled with the Bible. So when you've gotten over your fit of the sulks, why don't you ask us how we think it fits together, instead of just triumphantly throwing handfuls of prooftexts in our faces, and getting mad when we don't just capitulate?Regards,Pahoran
robuchan Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 So not only do we have the anti-Mormons trying to make us offenders for a word, we now see a self-appointed guardian of future (speculative) orthodoxy trying to make us offenders for a letter.Unbelievable!Now for the facts:Lower case g: orthodox LDS doctrine per Doctrine and Covenants 132.Upper case G: triviality quibbled over by latter-day Pharisees.Regards,PahoranOne more person lying about the doctrine.Yeah sometimes one letter can make a difference. One little zero that's missing from the end of my retirement account is forcing me to work a lot more years.lower case g = mainstream Christianupper case G = heresyYeah it is a big deal.
thesometimesaint Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 Robuchan:Inaccurate. The number "0" is not a case of a letter but a place holder. It would entirely depend on which end you are talking about. There is considerable different in the number 07, and 70.
Hick Preacher Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 I hope you enjoy your pity party.Nobody said you weren't welcome here, little Jimmy. But it might just do you some good to start by accepting the fact that we know our faith better than you do. And to realise that we do in fact read the Bible -- according to some, we read it more than EV's do -- and are confident that our doctrine can at least be reconciled with the Bible. So when you've gotten over your fit of the sulks, why don't you ask us how we think it fits together, instead of just triumphantly throwing handfuls of prooftexts in our faces, and getting mad when we don't just capitulate?Regards,Pahorancapitulate?or do you meanCapitulate?
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 One more person lying about the doctrine.Yeah sometimes one letter can make a difference. One little zero that's missing from the end of my retirement account is forcing me to work a lot more years.lower case g = mainstream Christianupper case G = heresyYeah it is a big deal.Just curious how do you interpret the verse of scripture in the BoA? Talking about the Gods?
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 Num 23:19God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? There I go again trusting in the Bible... IHS jimI am always confused why evangelicas quote this verse of scripture when trying to show how wrong LDS are in thier view if God. Can some one explain it to me?
Lightbearer Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 You really don't see alternate interpretations to "joint heir" that don't result in man becoming God? Occam's Razor. The simplest interpretation is that we simply inherit a portion of Heaven. No?No, the simplest interpretation is that when He says we will be join-heirs with Christ it means exactly that, a joint-heir. What exactly will we inherit if it is not Godhood? If we sit with Him in His throne, as He sat down with His Father in His throne, what could it be? So if eternal life is as we say it is exaltation, and I say that it is, then we will be inheriting a portion of heaven... to do what, play a harp? Float on a cloud? No we will do the things we have seen Him do, create worlds without number and people them with our begotten spirit sons and daughters and bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man! This principle of the Gospel will never, ever change, God has spoken, D&C 132 is just as valid to LDS as the Word of God as anything written in the Bible. No matter how many Anti-Mormons, or milk-toast members want to water down or deny the doctrine, these things cannot be denied without denying the entire Church and Kingdom of God and the restoration. Big G or little g or whatever philosophical BS you try to come up with the following words cannot be "broken":(D&C 132:19-24) "And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto themâ??Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depthsâ??then shall it be written in the Lambâ??s Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever. Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them. Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my law ye cannot attain to this glory. For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me. But if ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; that where I am ye shall be also. This is eternal livesâ??to know the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law."You can deny that this is scripture, you can deny that Joseph Smith was a prophet or that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the true Church. But you cannot deny that we do teach this doctrine (that man can become exalted) in the Church. If the Church were to teach anything else it would be in a state of apostasy and would be denying the spirit of revelation.
robuchan Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 No, the simplest interpretation is that when He says we will be join-heirs with Christ it means exactly that, a joint-heir. What exactly will we inherit if it is not Godhood? If we sit with Him in His throne, as He sat down with His Father in His throne, what could it be? So if eternal life is as we say it is exaltation, and I say that it is, then we will be inheriting a portion of heaven... to do what, play a harp? Float on a cloud? No we will do the things we have seen Him do, create worlds without number and people them with our begotten spirit sons and daughters and bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man! This principle of the Gospel will never, ever change, God has spoken, D&C 132 is just as valid to LDS as the Word of God as anything written in the Bible. No matter how many Anti-Mormons, or milk-toast members want to water down or deny the doctrine, these things cannot be denied without denying the entire Church and Kingdom of God and the restoration. Big G or little g or whatever philosophical BS you try to come up with the following words cannot be "broken":You can deny that this is scripture, you can deny that Joseph Smith was a prophet or that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the true Church. But you cannot deny that we do teach this doctrine (that man can become exalted) in the Church. If the Church were to teach anything else it would be in a state of apostasy and would be denying the spirit of revelation.Interesting that such an important doctrine is no longer taught over the pulpit in GC and doesn't appear in any official church publications, now that it was taken out of the Gospel Principles manual. And you can find a ton of active LDS who completely disagree with you. All you can do is point to non-binding speculative statements of past leaders to support your view and your interpretation of scripture which no prophets or general authorities of the past 30 years have supported. P.S. How are you going to pay me the $200 you owe me from the New Gospel Principles manual thread?
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 Interesting that such an important doctrine is no longer taught over the pulpit in GC and doesn't appear in any official church publications, now that it was taken out of the Gospel Principles manual. And you can find a ton of active LDS who completely disagree with you. All you can do is point to non-binding speculative statements of past leaders to support your view and your interpretation of scripture which no prophets or general authorities of the past 30 years have supported. P.S. How are you going to pay me the $200 you owe me from the New Gospel Principles manual thread?Last I checked the D&C was a little more authortive than "mere speculation". Last I checked it was part of our cannon of scripture. I think that you might be the odd one out on this one. Good luck to you.BTW I see that it is taught all the time at church. I bring it up quite a bit. I often quote Psalms 82:6 6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
Lightbearer Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 Interesting that such an important doctrine is no longer taught over the pulpit in GC and doesn't appear in any official church publications, now that it was taken out of the Gospel Principles manual. And you can find a ton of active LDS who completely disagree with you. All you can do is point to non-binding speculative statements of past leaders to support your view and your interpretation of scripture which no prophets or general authorities of the past 30 years have supported. P.S. How are you going to pay me the $200 you owe me from the New Gospel Principles manual thread?Who says it was taken out of the Gospel Principles manual? It is still in mine. I await the letter from the First Presidency telling me not to teach the doctrine that you can become a God. Also I have not seen it removed from the D&C 76 or 132 those are binding. Plus the statements of prophets and apostles of the past 30 years are still valid today as they ever have been. Where can you find a ton of active LDS who completely disagree with me? I have yet to see them, although there are a lot of apostates and Anti-Mormons who may not agree with me they are as the crackling of thorns under a pot. As for paying you $200 I would not hold my breath on that one... I have yet to read it with my own eyes in the manual, and the old manual is still at LDS.org so I would think it is still official doctrine. Besides they would need to rewrite a lot of manuals to "purge" that doctrine from the Church, not to mention the scriptures. That is what the "bet" was about, not rewording of a basic manual, when you can point to a General Conference where the entire membership votes to edit out D&C 132, 93, and 76 then we will talk. But I would not hold your breath on that one either.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 Who says it was taken out of the Gospel Principles manual? It is still in mine. I await the letter from the First Presidency telling me not to teach the doctrine that you can become a God. This is great isn't it?I have one question. What does it mean to be a god? What does it mean to be a God?Who wants to take a stab at it?
thesometimesaint Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 One is a Proper Noun, the other is an Adjective.
Hick Preacher Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 I am always confused why evangelicas quote this verse of scripture when trying to show how wrong LDS are in thier view if God. Can some one explain it to me?Cuz it says "God is not a Man..."
Hick Preacher Posted August 17, 2009 Posted August 17, 2009 This is great isn't it?I have one question. What does it mean to be a god? What does it mean to be a God?Who wants to take a stab at it?A man can be a God, but man cannot be The God.
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