A theory on what the fruit in the Garden of Eden.

[USU78]

Here is something I've always wanted to know in terms of literalism. It says that the Lord made coats of skins. Did the Lord go hunting? I have actually heard other explanations, such as that the coats of skins were actually made of plant matter. Or that they were symbolic religous garments, and don't have to be, um, literal. But in any case, just another thought.

Perhaps the coats of skins were made from animals sacrificed by G-d Himself as vicarious sacrifice to expiate original sin, and Adam and Eve were to wear them as reminders of that sacrifice and as a reminder to continue to sacrifice as their primary vocabulary of worship?

[Mudcat]

Thanks for the posts all. I suppose I should "flesh" out my thoughts.

Here it is. If man was an herbivore then man would seem to fall into a rather passive and peaceful herd instinct. If man was an herbivore wouldn't this peaceful and passive state of man's existence have been innocent?

If man chose to become omnivorous, this would change that state. Man couldn't necessarily adopt such pack instincts as the rest of the predators. Perhaps this is point in which man had to leave instinct and begin to reason.

[ERMD]

Quince.

[kamenraider]

it is not sex. didn't the GAs state as much recently? it would be difficult for eve to have sex before adam, and then approach adam with it later.

Yeah, Joseph Fielding Smith wrote:

The transgression of Adam did not involve sex sin as some falsely believe and teach. Adam and Eve were married by the Lord while they were yet immortal beings in the Garden of Eden and before death entered the world.

--Doctrines of Salvation Vol. 1, pgs. 114-115.

[kamenraider]

Perhaps the coats of skins were made from animals sacrificed by G-d Himself as vicarious sacrifice to expiate original sin, and Adam and Eve were to wear them as reminders of that sacrifice and as a reminder to continue to sacrifice as their primary vocabulary of worship?

Moses 6:53-54

53 And our father Adam spake unto the Lord, and said: Why is it that men must repent and be baptized in water? And the Lord said unto Adam: Behold I have forgiven thee thy transgression in the Garden of Eden.

54 Hence came the saying abroad among the people, that the Son of God hath atoned for original guilt, wherein the sins of the parents cannot be answered upon the heads of the children, for they are whole from the foundation of the world.

Alma 34:9-10

9 For it is expedient that an atonement should be made; for according to the great plan of the Eternal God there must be an atonement made, or else all mankind must unavoidably perish; yea, all are hardened; yea, all are fallen and are lost, and must perish except it be through the atonement which it is expedient should be made.

10 For it is expedient that there should be a great and last sacrifice; yea, not a sacrifice of man, neither of beast, neither of any manner of fowl; for it shall not be a human sacrifice; but it must be an infinite and eternal sacrifice.

[hagoth7]

I am starting to think then that "eating the fruit" means, simply, the fact that we have come to earth to participate in a mortal world and all that it entails.

Interesting. However, I'm having difficulty understanding how that interpretation can reconcile with what is said elsewhere about the creation account.

It doesn't seem to fit. For example, the fruit you're referring to was something which God commanded them NOT to eat.

So I'd be interested to hear how that command factors in to your interpretation, and how you might reconcile what you're suggesting with what we're taught elsewhere about the presentation/acceptance of the plan of salvation (i.e. that mankind rejected Satan's proposal.)

?

[kamenraider]

Why, for example, was the serpent implicated? Why was the serpent also identified with Christ in the desert (on Moses' staff)?

I thought that had something to do with the ouroboros

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouroboros

Well, the serpent represents sin and also resurrection. Lucifer introduced sin and later Jesus took sin upon himself and was lifted up like the "nehushtan" serpent (John 3:14-15).

Moses 4:6-7

6 And Satan put it into the heart of the serpent, (for he had drawn away many after him,) and he sought also to beguile Eve, for he knew not the mind of God, wherefore he sought to destroy the world.

7 And he said unto the woman: Yea, hath God saidâ??Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? (And he spake by the mouth of the serpent.)

I think that the serpent here is either a resurrected son of perdition from a previous world, or the offspring of one.

An example of such beings coming here later:

Now the history of Josephs in Speaking of angels came down and took themselves wives of the daughters of men, See Geneses 6 Chapter 1-2, verses. These ware resurrected Bodies, Violated the Celestial laws.

--Joseph Smith (Nauvoo, April 13, 1843) George Laub Journal, BYU Studies, Winter 1978 V.18 #2, pg. 174.

[changed]

we all know there is a connection between trees and virgins..

1 FOR it came to pass after I had desired to know the things that my father had seen, ...

4 And the Spirit said unto me: aBelievest thou that thy father saw the btree of which he hath spoken?

5 And I said: Yea, thou knowest that I abelieve all the words of my father.

8 And it came to pass that the Spirit said unto me: Look! And I looked and beheld a tree; and it was like unto the atree which my father had seen; and the bbeauty thereof was far beyond, yea, exceeding of all beauty; and the cwhiteness thereof did exceed the whiteness of the driven snow.

9 And it came to pass after I had seen the tree, I said unto the Spirit: I behold thou hast shown unto me the tree which is aprecious above all.

10 And he said unto me: What desirest thou?

11 And I said unto him: To know the ainterpretation thereofâ??for I spake unto him as a man speaketh; for I beheld that he was in the bform of a man; yet nevertheless, I knew that it was the Spirit of the Lord; and he spake unto me as a man speaketh with another.

12 And it came to pass that he said unto me: Look! And I looked as if to look upon him, and I saw him not; for he had gone from before my presence.

13 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the great city of Jerusalem, and also other cities. And I beheld the city of Nazareth; and in the city of aNazareth I beheld a bvirgin, and she was exceedingly fair and white.

14 And it came to pass that I saw the aheavens open; and an angel came down and stood before me; and he said unto me: Nephi, what beholdest thou?

15 And I said unto him: A virgin, most beautiful and fair above all other virgins.

(Book of Mormon | 1 Nephi 11:1 - 15)

in any event... no children without the fall -

22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And ll things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end. 23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

...

25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.

it seems it is impossible to have children unless you are fallen... there has to be a reason for this...

I think it is a transgression to bring a child into the world, as they cannot make an informed choice on what they have not yet expienced. Prego birth goes against agency.

Here is an ineteresting account (also consider that "Eve was taken from adam's side")

The Apocalypse of Adam

Nag Hammadi Codex V,5.

Translated by George W. MacRae

The revelation of Adam`s origin as told to his son Seth

The revelation which Adam taught his son Seth in the seven hundredth year, saying, Listen to my words, my son Seth. When God had created me out of the earth along with Eve, your mother, I went about with her in a glory which she had seen in the Aeon from which we had come forth. She taught me a word of knowledge of the eternal God. And we resembled the great angels, for we were higher than the God who had created us and the powers with him, whom we did not know.

Then God, the ruler of the Aeons and the powers, divided us in wrath. Then we became two Aeons. And the glory in our hearts left us , me and your mother Eve, along with the first knowledge that breathed within us.And glory fled from us; not from this Aeon from which we had come forth, I and Eve your mother.But knowledge entered into the seed of great Aeons.For this reason I myself have called you by the name of that man who is the seed of the great generation or from whom it comes.After those days the eternal knowledge of the God of truth withdrew from me and your mother Eve.Since that time we learned about dead things, like men.Then we recognized the God who had created us. For we were not strangers to his powers.And we served him in fear and slavery.And after these events we became darkened in our hearts. Now I slept in the thought of my heart.

I think Eve was having a little chat with someone, then went and taught some things to Adam. JMO. You gain knowledge by talking with others don't you? Adam was walking around talking with God. Eve was prob talking with various beings too...

[kamenraider]

we all know there is a connection between trees and virgins..

...

I think Eve was having a little chat with someone, then went and taught some things to Adam. JMO. You gain knowledge by talking with others don't you? Adam was walking around talking with God. Eve was prob talking with various beings too...

If the tree of knowledge of good and evil represents Heavenly Mother, then what does the tree of life represent?

What if Eve is Heavenly Mother?

Once after returning from a mission, he [Zebedee Coltrin] met Brother Joseph in Kirtland, who asked him if he did not wish to go with him to a conference at New Portage. The party consisted of Presidents Joseph Smith, Sidney Rigdon, Oliver Cowdery and myself [Zebedee Coltrin]. Next morning at New Portage, he noticed that Joseph seemed to have a far off look in his eyes, or was looking at a distance and presently he, Joseph, stepped between Brothers Cowdery and Coltrin and taking them by the arm, said, "Let's take a walk." They went to a place where there was some beautiful grass and grapevines and swamp beech interlaced. President Joseph Smith then said, "Let us pray." They all three prayed in turn—Joseph, Oliver, and Zebedee. Brother Joseph then said, "Now brethren, we will see some visions." Joseph lay down on the ground on his back and stretched out his arms and the two brethren lay on them. The heavens gradually opened, and they saw a golden throne, on a circular foundation, something like a light house, and on the throne were two aged personages, having white hair, and clothed in white garments. They were the two most beautiful and perfect specimens of mankind he ever saw. Joseph said, "They are our first parents, Adam and Eve." Adam was a large, broad-shouldered man, and Eve as a woman, was large in proportion.

--"Statement of Zebedee Coltrin." Minutes, 3 October 1883, Salt Lake School of Prophets, LDS Church Archives, Salt Lake City, Utah, 66-67.

Note: In a different account of this same vision, Coltrin said of Adam and Eve that "their heads were white as snow, and their faces shone with youth" (see "The Papers of Zebedee Coltrin," in E. Cecil McGavin, The Record of the Spanish Fork Branch [29 April 1866 to 1 December 1898], LDS Church Archives, Salt Lake City, Utah, 251).

My wife taught me a word of knowledge too before we were sealed.

Adam and Eve were already in God's presence before the Fall though, so wouldn't need to know how to regain it. Neither could such knowledge cause the Fall, IMO.

[changed]

If the tree of knowledge of good and evil represents Heavenly Mother, then what does the tree of life represent?

What if Eve is Heavenly Mother?

My wife taught me a word of knowledge too before we were sealed.

Adam and Eve were already in God's presence before the Fall though, so wouldn't need to know how to regain it. Neither could such knowledge cause the Fall, IMO.

I think BY said Eve was a handmaid, could be wrong though. The tree of life and tree of knowledge might be related to one another IMO. I mean, life and death were both started during the fall... good and evil.

Knowledge that could cause the fall: knowing that if you did not fall, the kiddos would never get a chance to start out on their journies. No other way and all that.

Strange mixture of what snakes are used to represent don't you think?

[changed]

OK â?? I really should not be posting this, but I just canâ??t help myselfâ?¦

Soâ?¦ considering that a perfect being may not be able to bring children into the world the prego way â?? 8yo believers baptism is perhaps how They have children, not through the cursed â??pain and sufferingâ? prego way. Babies cannot choose anything, spirits cannot make an informed decision on what they have not yet experienced â?? prego birth, the first birth into a body/parents â?? it goes against agency. Only a fallen being could provide it.

How HM has childrenâ?¦.

7 And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters.

(Book of Mormon | Mosiah 5:7)

We know Jesus is the â??onlyâ? begotten Son â?? so Adam must not have been begotten, (at least not begotten by HF)â?¦ Adam celestial being in Eden, perhaps the only way you can become a celestial being is by going through the process we are going through now â?? live, die, resurrected. Adam a resurrected being? Who was able to make an informed choice, and so was able to be placed in Eden by perfect beings?

Jesus was begotten through an â??handmaid of the Lordâ? â?? not by Heavenly Mother. â??only childâ? â?¦ Heavenly Mother must not have any physically begotten children. Abraham represents HF, Sarah represents Heavenly Mother? Abraham at the last minute not called to make the same sacrifice as Heavenly Father, at the last minute Sarah able to have a childâ?¦ Sarah Abraham both at the last minute not asked to make the sacrifice that our heavenly parents madeâ?¦ all the barren women in the scipts perhaps trying to tell us that our Heavenly Mother is not exactly a fertility Goddess.

Tree of life in the dream â?? the big deal around virgin birth â?? a different kind of birth no? Tree of life = â??love of Godâ?â?¦ ever call your spouse â??your loveâ?. Honey, sweetie, love, can you do xyz? HM â?? the â??love of Godâ? â?¦ tree guarded by cherubimâ??s, like the budding rod of Aaron in the Arc guarded by cherubimâ??s in the Holy of Holy (law = God, manna bread = Jesus, rod of Aaron = tree = HM â?¦ see all items in arcâ?¦ ). So Heavenly Mother is hidden from us, women are veiled â?? wedding veils, long hair, modest cloths, HM is veiled â?? in the Holy of Holies.

Tree of life = virgin HM

Tree of good/evil = Eve / handmaidsâ?¦ (unable to follow the example of HM in this life)

Late night ramblings. I better stop.

[Freedom]

I believe it is an allegory of growing up, the facts of life. They start out naked or ignorant. The tree of knowledge represents puberty and becoming self aware. They are cast out because they are now adults and they must find their own way. They have to get their own homes and earn their own living. Their father teaches them the facts of life, gives them some direction and they leave the garden rejoicing starting a new life together, effectively creating their own Garden of Eden for their own children. Children get everything they need from the parents, they don't need to earn a living, get their own food or clothing. It is all provided for them.

[changed]

something interesting reguarding the tree of life:

the question the Spirit of the Lord asked Nephi: â??Knowest thou the condescension of God?â? (1 Nephi 11:16). Note a definition of â??condescendâ? that the Oxford English Dictionary gives the word, â??To depart from the privileges of superiority by a voluntary submission; to sink willingly to equal terms with inferiours.â?

from:

http://jesus.christ.org/1287/why-is-jesus-...-the-son-of-god

16 And he said unto me: Knowest thou the condescension of God?

17 And I said unto him: I know that he loveth his children; nevertheless, I do not know the meaning of all things.

18 And he said unto me: Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of the Son of God, after the manner of the flesh.

(Book of Mormon | 1 Nephi 11:16 - 18)

Is Heavenly Mother the same as Mary? Did HM "condescend" to Earth to bear Jesus?

Anyways, She is symbolized as a tree.

[Jason]

Thanks for the posts all. I suppose I should "flesh" out my thoughts.

Here it is. If man was an herbivore then man would seem to fall into a rather passive and peaceful herd instinct. If man was an herbivore wouldn't this peaceful and passive state of man's existence have been innocent?

If man chose to become omnivorous, this would change that state. Man couldn't necessarily adopt such pack instincts as the rest of the predators. Perhaps this is point in which man had to leave instinct and begin to reason.

Do you know what animal is considered by many experts to be the most agreesive and most dangerous in Africa (not counting the disease-carrying mosquito)? The herbivourous hippopotamus.

[kamenraider]

You're really citing the Jessop's and Woolley's? Are you a "Mormon fundamentalist" sympathizer?

I'm interested in the subject of Mormon fundamentalism and I have relevant books in my library. I thought the story was at least interesting and pertinent to the thread. Should I automatically assume that any Mormon fundamentalist source has zero credibility?

[kamenraider]

Here's another version of the vision accounts related by Zebedee Coltrin that I posted above:

Pres. Peterson told of an incident which he often heard Zebedee Coltrin relate. One

day the Prophet Joseph asked him and Sidney Rigdon to accompany him into the woods

to pray. When they had reached a secluded spot, Joseph laid down on his back and

stretched out his arms. He told the brethren to lie one on each arm, and then shut their

eyes. After they had prayed he told them to open their eyes. They did so and saw a

brilliant light surrounding a pedestal which seemed to rest on the earth. They closed

their eyes and again prayed. They then saw, on opening them, the Father seated upon a

throne; they prayed again and on looking saw the Mother also; after praying and looking

the fourth time they saw the Savior added to the group. He had ___ brown, rather

long, wavy hair and appeared quite young.

--Journal of Abraham H. Cannon 13:89

[Nofear]

Being the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, the fruit bestowed an awareness of good and evil.

That which gives us an internal sense of good and evil is the light of Christ.

Without a functional awareness (or capacity to be aware) of the light of Christ we would be "innocent" and unaccountable for wrong doing.

Thus, I am partial to the idea that the forbidden fruit is simply some fruit which switched on our neuro-physiological capacity to respond to the light of Christ (and perhaps the reproductive physiology as well).

PS: I am also of the opinion that Adam and Eve would have been given the fruit after some further instruction from the Lord but that Satan tried to mess things up by persuading them to take it prematurely.

[LeSellers]

If man chose to become omnivorous, this would change that state.

Man has always been omnivorous.

Dentition alone (not to mention our gut, and the need for a high protein diet to support our brain function) owuld prove it. The other indicators are just as impressive.

Besides, I cannot see how eating a specific fruit could have anything to do with Adam's choosing to become carnivorous/omnivorous. Kinda counter-intuitive, if you see my point.

Lehi

[katherine the great]

Maybe that's where the Lord got the "skins" from which he made Adam and Eve's clothing. "Okay, you guys wanted to eat itâ??here, you can also wear it!"

Good one!

[katherine the great]

I think that has some merit but the text in Genesis presents problems for the idea. Prior to the Flood , eating animals ... period .. was forbidden. It was only afterwards that mankind ate meat.

Do you have a reference for that belief? It seems strange to me because eating the meat from the sacrifice was part of the ceremony. When they made burn offerings of meat, did they just throw the meat away? That seems like an awful waste.

[katherine the great]

Do you know what animal is considered by many experts to be the most agreesive and most dangerous in Africa (not counting the disease-carrying mosquito)? The herbivourous hippopotamus.

I've heard that too. It surprised me because they are kind of cute in a plump, curmudgeonly way.

[Doctor Steuss]

[...] kind of cute in a plump, curmudgeonly way.

I have an itching suspicion that this is how my friend described me to my blind dateâ?¦