Joseph Smith and Money Digging

[consiglieri]

Sacrament meeting went long yesterday for no good reason except loquacious speakers, reducing our time in Sunday school to about 30-minutes.

We were not able to get into the translation of the Book of Mormon, but did cover some of the important events from Moroni's first appearance on September 21, 1823 to the planned retrieval date of September 21, 1827.

After speaking about Moroni's first appearance and dwelling briefly on the scriptures he cited to Joseph, we talked about Alvin's death two months later in November of 1823, and how that impacted the family; together with the only scriptural reference we have to Alvin in D&C 137.

Mentioned how this put the Smith family in hardship because they had lost their eldest son; that the goal was to become financially independent in their own farm, and then spread out to have multiple farms, so as to have a farm to give each son when they got married; pointed to Martin Harris as an example of somebody who had "arrived" in the agricultural field (no pun intended), owning as he did a number of farms in the area.

This led into a discussion of how the members of the Smith family had to hire out to do whatever work they could find.

In 1825, a man named Josiah Stowell who lived down south by the Pennsylvania border, believed he had a map showing the location of a Spanish silver mine; hired a number of hands to help him dig for it; among that number were Joseph Smith, Jr., and his father.

They helped him for a month or two, but then Joseph Smith finally prevailed on Josiah Stowell that it was a pointless excercise, and to call it off.

It was this incident primarily that led to the story that Joseph Smith was a "money digger," a fact Joseph Smith himself admitted in a list of questions he was frequently asked (which can be found in TPJS), one of which was whether he had been a "money digger," to which he responded, "Yes, but I gave it up as it was never very profitable."

(This led into a discussion of Joseph Smith's finding another "treasure" while he was down there 135-miles away from home, as he boarded in the home of Isaac Hale and met and fell in love with one of his daughter's, Emma, while there.)

So, bottom line--We talked about Joseph Smith's treasure digging days in Gospel Doctrine class . . . and nothing exploded.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Connolly]

Expect a private visit from the Bishop in your home later this week.

[Sevenbak]

Sacrament meeting went long yesterday for no good reason except loquacious speakers, reducing our time in Sunday school to about 30-minutes.

We were not able to get into the translation of the Book of Mormon, but did cover some of the important events from Moroni's first appearance on September 21, 1823 to the planned retrieval date of September 21, 1827.

After speaking about Moroni's first appearance and dwelling briefly on the scriptures he cited to Joseph, we talked about Alvin's death two months later in November of 1823, and how that impacted the family; together with the only scriptural reference we have to Alvin in D&C 137.

Mentioned how this put the Smith family in hardship because they had lost their eldest son; that the goal was to become financially independent in their own farm, and then spread out to have multiple farms, so as to have a farm to give each son when they got married; pointed to Martin Harris as an example of somebody who had "arrived" in the agricultural field (no pun intended), owning as he did a number of farms in the area.

This led into a discussion of how the members of the Smith family had to hire out to do whatever work they could find.

In 1825, a man named Josiah Stowell who lived down south by the Pennsylvania border, believed he had a map showing the location of a Spanish silver mine; hired a number of hands to help him dig for it; among that number were Joseph Smith, Jr., and his father.

They helped him for a month or two, but then Joseph Smith finally prevailed on Josiah Stowell that it was a pointless excercise, and to call it off.

It was this incident primarily that led to the story that Joseph Smith was a "money digger," a fact Joseph Smith himself admitted in a list of questions he was frequently asked (which can be found in TPJS), one of which was whether he had been a "money digger," to which he responded, "Yes, but I gave it up as it was never very profitable."

(This led into a discussion of Joseph Smith's finding another "treasure" while he was down there 135-miles away from home, as he boarded in the home of Isaac Hale and met and fell in love with one of his daughter's, Emma, while there.)

So, bottom line--We talked about Joseph Smith's treasure digging days in Gospel Doctrine class . . . and nothing exploded.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it during the Josiah Stowel job that Joseph found the main seer stone which he used sometimes in the translation of the plates. I believe it was about 20 feet down. I also believe he was led to that job in order to get that stone.

[consiglieri]

Expect a private visit from the Bishop in your home later this week.

The bishop is out of town.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it during the Josiah Stowel job that Joseph found the main seer stone which he used sometimes in the translation of the plates. I believe it was about 20 feet down. I also believe he was led to that job in order to get that stone.

My understanding is that he found the stone in question in 1822 while digging a well for Willard Chase.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[robuchan]

Sacrament meeting went long yesterday for no good reason except loquacious speakers, reducing our time in Sunday school to about 30-minutes.

If your ward is like mine and you teach GD every week, the average member speaks in sacrament once every couple years for about 15 minutes total. 7.5 minutes per year of preaching time. You get 45 minutes * 52 = 39 hours per year. I've heard several GD teachers on this site complain about having their time cut into, and it just doesn't come across right to me.

[hagoth7]

I've heard several GD teachers on this site complain about having their time cut into, and it just doesn't come across right to me.

Your math helps with perspective. And as others have said elsewhere, sacrament meeting is the most important meeting in the block schedule.

However, in my opinion, it's a good thing that teachers take exception to shortened lessons. It means they take their callings, and their preparation, seriously.

[Marmonboy]

If your ward is like mine and you teach GD every week, the average member speaks in sacrament once every couple years for about 15 minutes total. 7.5 minutes per year of preaching time. You get 45 minutes * 52 = 39 hours per year. I've heard several GD teachers on this site complain about having their time cut into, and it just doesn't come across right to me.

Based on my experience, it doesn't happen very often, but it does happen.

EQ regularly runs 5-10 minutes over, since we got a new presidency. I expect that will improve when someone from the next ward starts complaining about tying up the classroom.

[katherine the great]

I think it would be good to mention that digging for buried Spanish treasure was actually not at all unusual in those days. People didn't have bank vaults to protect their valuables in and I believe that the Spanish explorers (and others) probably did bury things of great value--some are probably still out there. It seems silly and superstitious to us, but LDS people are certainly capable of understanding it in the context of history. Anyone see the Shawshank Redemption?

[LifeOnaPlate]

If your ward is like mine and you teach GD every week, the average member speaks in sacrament once every couple years for about 15 minutes total. 7.5 minutes per year of preaching time. You get 45 minutes * 52 = 39 hours per year. I've heard several GD teachers on this site complain about having their time cut into, and it just doesn't come across right to me.

I like that analysis, it gives needed perspective. (Still, I do like when sacrament mtg. ends on time.)

[talisyn]

I'm actually surprised more treasure hunting didn't take place. Joseph Smith already knew about a fabulous gold treasure. I think would make sense to assume there would be ancient trinkets and whatnot all over the area. I don't understand why the idea of 'treasure hunting' is such great ammo for non-mormons.

[Sentinus]

I'm actually surprised more treasure hunting didn't take place. Joseph Smith already knew about a fabulous gold treasure. I think would make sense to assume there would be ancient trinkets and whatnot all over the area. I don't understand why the idea of 'treasure hunting' is such great ammo for non-mormons.

The treasure hunting probably isn't the issue. Most likely the manner in which Joseph claimed to locate said treasures is the problem.

Regards,

Sentinus

[Brant Gardner]

I'm actually surprised more treasure hunting didn't take place. Joseph Smith already knew about a fabulous gold treasure. I think would make sense to assume there would be ancient trinkets and whatnot all over the area. I don't understand why the idea of 'treasure hunting' is such great ammo for non-mormons.

Quite a bit of it did. Joseph Smith was certainly not the only one interested in such things.

The treasure hunting probably isn't the issue. Most likely the manner in which Joseph claimed to locate said treasures is the problem.

Maybe for a modern audience, but clearly not for the people in that time and place. It was really quite accepted and normal. Joseph Smith had neighbors with stones and lots of people were familiar with the way they were to be used, though not all had the talent (as it was often called).

[Sentinus]

The bishop is out of town. :spiteful:My understanding is that he found the stone in question in 1822 while digging a well for Willard Chase.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Contemporary records suggest that money-digging activities (treasure hunting) had been one of the Smith family occupations in the Palmyra/Manchester, New York area since the early 1820s. Willard Chase, a friend of the family recalled:

I became acquainted with the Smith family, known as the authors of the Mormon Bible, in the year 1820. At that time, they were engaged in the money digging business, which they followed until the latter part of the season of 1827. In the year 1822, I was engaged in digging a well. I employed Alvin and Joseph Smith to assist me; the latter of whom is now known as the Mormon prophet. After digging about twenty feet below the surface of the earth, we discovered a singularly appearing stone, which excited my curiosity. I brought it to the top of the well, and as we were examining it, Joseph put it into his hat, and then his face into the top of his hat. It has been said by Smith, that he brought the stone from the well; but this is false. There was no one in the well but myself. The next morning he came to me, and wished to obtain the stone, alledging that he could see in it; but I told him I did not wish to part with it on account of its being a curiosity, but would lend it.

(Affidavit of Willard Chase, circa 11 Dec. 1833, Manchester, Ontario County, New York in E. D. Howe, Mormonism Unvailed [Painesville (OH): Printed and Published by the Author, 1834], 240-41, emphasis omitted); also in Dan Vogel, ed., Early Mormon Documents [salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1998], 2:65-66, cited hereafter as EMD).

During the month when the church was organized Willard Chase mentioned talking with Hyrum Smith, older brother of Joseph Smith: "In April, 1830, I again asked Hiram for the stone which he had borrowed of me; he told me I should not have it, for Joseph made use of it in translating his Bible" (Howe, Mormonism Unvailed, 247; in EMD 2:73).

Good call Consig.

[Sentinus]

Quite a bit of it did. Joseph Smith was certainly not the only one interested in such things.Maybe for a modern audience, but clearly not for the people in that time and place. It was really quite accepted and normal. Joseph Smith had neighbors with stones and lots of people were familiar with the way they were to be used, though not all had the talent (as it was often called).

Maybe for a modern audience, but clearly not for the people in that time and place. It was really quite accepted and normal. Joseph Smith had neighbors with stones and lots of people were familiar with the way they were to be used, though not all had the talent (as it was often called).

It was also common to burn women at the stake for being witches in Salem, that didn't make it OK. Just for fun perhaps you could show other sources of people using seer stones to find treasure, or translate sacred texts.

regards,

Sentinus

[Fly Fisherman]

So, bottom line--We talked about Joseph Smith's treasure digging days in Gospel Doctrine class . . . and nothing exploded.

You mean, half the class didn't stand up, punch their fists into the air and yell "Why weren't we ever told about this??" and demand to have their names removed from the Church? Based on what I read from our exMo friends, that should have happened.

[dblagent007]

You mean, half the class didn't stand up, punch their fists into the air and yell "Why weren't we ever told about this??" and demand to have their names removed from the Church? Based on what I read from our exMo friends, that should have happened.

Half the class wasn't listening (zoning, sleeping, etc.) so that in a couple years time when they stumble across this info an anti-site they will still cry out "why weren't we ever told about this?" And, "the church lied, people died," or something like that.

[robuchan]

You mean, half the class didn't stand up, punch their fists into the air and yell "Why weren't we ever told about this??" and demand to have their names removed from the Church? Based on what I read from our exMo friends, that should have happened.

My evolution was:

1. Not delve too deep and assume the money digging accusations were tied to the finding of the Gold Plates. No effect on testimony.

2. Learn that JS actually did some money digging that was not related to the Gold Plates. Little harder, but no real effect.

3. Learn that JS BOM translation method, head buried in hat with the peepstone inside was same method even the same peepstone he used for money digging. And the money digging and peepstone predated the BOM translation. Really hard to deal with and along with about 30 other items, ended up pushing me over the edge.

[katherine the great]

It was also common to burn women at the stake for being witches in Salem, that didn't make it OK

regards,

Sentinus

That comparison is not worthy of your intellect.

[dawndenver]

We learned that the Jewish New Year (Rosh Hashanna sp?) Happened Sept. 22 1927 the same day JS got the plates. The Jewish New Year is also when the Jewish people ask for more covenants to make or the new covenant. Found it interesting that the BofM is talked about sometimes about being the new covenant. What say you?

[consiglieri]

It was also common to burn women at the stake for being witches in Salem, that didn't make it OK.

Well, technically, I think the Salem witches were executed by hanging, not burning, but I know I am straining at gnats.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[katherine the great]

We learned that the Jewish New Year (Rosh Hashanna sp?) Happened Sept. 22 1927 the same day JS got the plates. The Jewish New Year is also when the Jewish people ask for more covenants to make or the new covenant. Found it interesting that the BofM is talked about sometimes about being the new covenant. What say you?

Probably about as connected as the Mountain Meadows Massacre (Sept 11, 1857) and 9-1-1.

[Mortal Man]

Try mentioning the 1826 trial in your next class and let us know how that goes.

http://www.lightplanet.com/response/1826Tr...Trial_Hill.html

[Sentinus]

That comparison is not worthy of your intellect.

Thanks for the compliment.... I think.

Regards,

Sentinus

[Sentinus]

Well, technically, I think the Salem witches were executed by hanging, not burning, but I know I am straining at gnats.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

My bad, they hanged em here and burned them in England. Thanks Consig.

Regards,

Sentinus

[ttribe]

Try mentioning the 1826 trial in your next class and let us know how that goes.

http://www.lightplanet.com/response/1826Tr...Trial_Hill.html

Hasn't all that been covered in Rough Stone Rolling?