Joseph Smith and Money Digging

[Lamanite]

CFR on only one journal found.

I'm just helping you out and maybe you don't care....but you're going to get banned.

[consiglieri]

So we expect to see illustrations of Joseph Smith with his head in a hat in the Ensign now when they discuss the BoM translation, right?

I have no control over Ensign illustrations, but I will be giving a Sunday school depiction of Joseph Smith translating, and will be bringing along an old farm hat for the purpose!

(Now if I can only find an egg-shaped chocolate-colored stone.)

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

Hi Rob,

I think your point 3 is notable. I can see why it would be a hangup and feel it is well worthy of address.

Though I doubt that Consig's class got this in depth into the topic. I am assuming they probably didn't get past point 2.

Mudcat

You are, in the main, correct, good my brother.

We did not get past point 2, and I must once again bring up the loquacious sacrament meeting speakers in my defense for not going into more depth.

No, really, that was about as far as I had planned on going in class, though I do plan on mentioning the 1826 trial, as well as the fact that the guys who were trying to get the gold plates from Joseph Smith were likely doing so because they had been partners in the money digging business, and felt that pursuant to the partnership agreement, they were legally entitled to a share of whatever Joseph Smith found. (This makes so much more sense than "The Work and the Glory" treatment.)

Afterwards, though, a couple of gentlemen came up to me, who are accustomed to doing so after class while I am erasing the blackboard and packing up my books.

Says one, who knows a lot, but not as much as the second, "I don't have a problem with Joseph Smith's money digging so long as he wasn't the leader."

"Well, says I, "I think he was more the navigator."

The second fellow, who knows more than the first, gives me a quick look out of the corner of his eyes and starts to chuckle.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[HiJolly]

I have no control over Ensign illustrations, but I will be giving a Sunday school depiction of Joseph Smith translating, and will be bringing along an old farm hat for the purpose!

(Now if I can only find an egg-shaped chocolate-colored stone.)

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I hear Cadbury has something very like that.

HiJolly

[Areabird]

Wow, he was arrested? CFR.

Isn't that common knowledge? I didn't know that was in dispute.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_life_of_Joseph_Smith,_Jr.

Court records from Bainbridge, New York, show that Smith, identified as "The Glass Looker," was before the court on March 20, 1826, on a warrant for an unspecified misdemeanor charge (Hill 1972, p. 2), and that the judge issued a mittimus for Smith to be held, either during or after the proceedings (Hill 1972, p. 5). Although Smith's associate Oliver Cowdery (who had not met Smith as of 1826) later stated that Smith was "honorably acquitted" (Cowdery 1835, p. 200), the result of the proceeding is unclear, with some eye-witnesses (including the court reporter) claiming he w

[consiglieri]

I hear Cadbury has something very like that.

HiJolly

Hah! Cadbury! Brilliant!

But I wouldn't want my seer stone melting in my hat.

My thought is to approach it something like this.

First, I borrow a watch from somebody in the audience; one with a luminous dial.

I mention how I can't see the glowing numerals on the watch's face in the light, and display it to all to confirm this quotidian fact.

I then cup it in my hands and hold it up to my eye; saying that this is the obvious way for me to see the glowing numerals in the daytime.

But, even though I can see the glow, I can't read the numerals because they are too close to my eye, and I can't focus on them.

Then, I doff my hat and put the watch in the bottom, and put my face over it, and say that by using a hat, I can exclude the ambient light sufficiently for me to see the glow, and I have the watch far enough away from my face that I can read the numerals; additionally, I can use both eyes which is a great help in being able to actually see what is on the watch's face.

I then whip out my trusty copy of Elder Russel M. Nelson's Ensign article in which he says that David Whitmer's account of Joseph Smith's translating by means of putting the seer stone in his hat and placing his face into the hat is a "precious insight."

I follow up by observing how this seems to make sense, inasmuch as Joseph Smith was dictating, but his scribe obviously had to have light in order to write.

What do you think?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Areabird]

QUOTE(Areabird @ Jan 26 2009, 09:12 PM) *

I wouldn't say that Joseph Smith's society believed in the occult. There were people who participated in magic, like Joseph's own mother, but that didn't make it widespread and acceptable.

You are using some labels to describe what they were doing that they did not necessarily use, or, in the case of "magic", understood differently that we do. You are also confusing what "Joseph Smith's society" might have been. There was a large difference between what was believed and practiced by the "folk" from that of the "city" people. This division between the more educated city-centered people and the less educated far-from-city people has been around for a very long time and has virtually always been marked by differences in the way religious topics were understood (and that covers more than just Christianity, it occurred in paganism as well--which, of course, is the reason it was called "pagan" or "country").

I've been searching the internet trying to find anything that talked about folk magic in the early 1800's and can't find much at all that is relevant to support the position that it was pervasive or that it was not pervasive. Do you have some references I could take a look at?

[robuchan]

Hah! Cadbury! Brilliant!

But I wouldn't want my seer stone melting in my hat.

My thought is to approach it something like this.

First, I borrow a watch from somebody in the audience; one with a luminous dial.

I mention how I can't see the glowing numerals on the watch's face in the light, and display it to all to confirm this quotidian fact.

I then cup it in my hands and hold it up to my eye; saying that this is the obvious way for me to see the glowing numerals in the daytime.

But, even though I can see the glow, I can't read the numerals because they are too close to my eye, and I can't focus on them.

Then, I doff my hat and put the watch in the bottom, and put my face over it, and say that by using a hat, I can exclude the ambient light sufficiently for me to see the glow, and I have the watch far enough away from my face that I can read the numerals; additionally, I can use both eyes which is a great help in being able to actually see what is on the watch's face.

I then whip out my trusty copy of Elder Russel M. Nelson's Ensign article in which he says that David Whitmer's account of Joseph Smith's translating by means of putting the seer stone in his hat and placing his face into the hat is a "precious insight."

I follow up by observing how this seems to make sense, inasmuch as Joseph Smith was dictating, but his scribe obviously had to have light in order to write.

What do you think?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I think you're really gutsy.

I'm not sold yet on this inoculation idea yet, but it might have merit. I've always been against it, killing more people through the inoculation than get killed with the virus. I could see possibly that if I had been taught this way from the time I was a baby, I might have never doubted it.

[LeSellers]

Now if I can only find an egg-shaped chocolate-colored stone.

Isn't that what Plaster of Paris and tempura pain are for?

Lehi

[Jeff K.]

QUOTE(Areabird @ Jan 26 2009, 09:12 PM) *

I wouldn't say that Joseph Smith's society believed in the occult. There were people who participated in magic, like Joseph's own mother, but that didn't make it widespread and acceptable.

I've been searching the internet trying to find anything that talked about folk magic in the early 1800's and can't find much at all that is relevant to support the position that it was pervasive or that it was not pervasive. Do you have some references I could take a look at?

It is rather specialized. My knowledge comes from someone who did their thesis on the Great Awakening, the result of her research reflected a great deal of folk magic that was brought to our shores from immigrants (willing and unwilling). You might want to consider the book "Der Lange Verborgene Freund", while post Great Awakening I, it outlines some of the folk magic that was brought from the Old World to the new.

[ttribe]

Isn't that common knowledge? I didn't know that was in dispute.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_life_of_Joseph_Smith,_Jr.

Court records from Bainbridge, New York, show that Smith, identified as "The Glass Looker," was before the court on March 20, 1826, on a warrant for an unspecified misdemeanor charge (Hill 1972, p. 2), and that the judge issued a mittimus for Smith to be held, either during or after the proceedings (Hill 1972, p. 5). Although Smith's associate Oliver Cowdery (who had not met Smith as of 1826) later stated that Smith was "honorably acquitted" (Cowdery 1835, p. 200), the result of the proceeding is unclear, with some eye-witnesses (including the court reporter) claiming he w

Appearing before the court and being arrested are different things. I am aware of no record supporting the idea that JS was arrested for this matter.

[rameumptom]

Why think Joseph's treasure hunting strange, when we have similar events ongoing in the Bible? Jacob bred his sheep in front of reeds that changed their markings, in order for him to obtain the rich herds from his father in law, Laban.

Or Jesus using spittle and clay to heal a blind man - this was a form used by magicians of the day to perform their miracles.

Of course, the priest of Aaron wore the Urim and Thummim on a breast plate, and worshipped an invisible God that sat between two golden cherubim. The temple of Solomon was designed after the Canaanite temples surrounding Israel.

Shall I go on? Perhaps we should disbelieve the Bible, because it has prophets and others doing folk magic?

[Areabird]

Why think Joseph's treasure hunting strange, when we have similar events ongoing in the Bible? Jacob bred his sheep in front of reeds that changed their markings, in order for him to obtain the rich herds from his father in law, Laban.Or Jesus using spittle and clay to heal a blind man - this was a form used by magicians of the day to perform their miracles.Of course, the priest of Aaron wore the Urim and Thummim on a breast plate, and worshipped an invisible God that sat between two golden cherubim. The temple of Solomon was designed after the Canaanite temples surrounding Israel.Shall I go on? Perhaps we should disbelieve the Bible, because it has prophets and others doing folk magic?

I'm all for taking the Old Testament with a huge grain of salt...global flood, people who lived for hundres of years, jonah and the whale, God commanding entire peoples to be massacred, etc.

Appearing before the court and being arrested are different things. I am aware of no record supporting the idea that JS was arrested for this matter.

yes, I could be mistaken on that. I assumed that if you have a warrant out for you that arrest is part of the process. But I guess he could have appeared in court voluntarily without an arrest having actually been made. Though I believe many who have written of the account use the word 'arrest' to describe what happened.

[ttribe]

yes, I could be mistaken on that. I assumed that if you have a warrant out for you that arrest is part of the process. But I guess he could have appeared in court voluntarily without an arrest having actually been made. Though I believe many who have written of the account use the word 'arrest' to describe what happened.

The confusion is understandable. 19th century legal proceedings were not quite what we expect when viewed through the 21st century lens.

[Areabird]

The confusion is understandable. 19th century legal proceedings were not quite what we expect when viewed through the 21st century lens.

And I acknowledge that it wasn't considered a major crime by any means. The record shows it was a misdemeanor. I would say glass-looking was considered a nuisance rather than outright fraud.

[ttribe]

And I acknowledge that it wasn't considered a major crime by any means. The record shows it was a misdemeanor. I would say glass-looking was considered a nuisance rather than outright fraud.

Heaven help you if all you did was look at your window...kidding, of course.

[consiglieri]

Heaven help you if all you did was look at your window...kidding, of course.

This does raise the question as to why the court document references "glass-looking."

It is not clear to me why this phrase would have been used, since Joseph Smith was, as far as I know, just using rocks at the time.

Or perhaps the phrase is a generic term that also covers "egg-shaped chocolate-colored stones."

Maybe we have inadvertently ferreted out the reason for the dismissal of the charge.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[ttribe]

This does raise the question as to why the court document references "glass-looking."

It is not clear to me why this phrase would have been used, since Joseph Smith was, as far as I know, just using rocks at the time.

Or perhaps the phrase is a generic term that also covers "egg-shaped chocolate-colored stones."

Maybe we have inadvertently ferreted out the reason for the dismissal of the charge.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Ahhh...a technicality! JS was truly a scoundrel!

[LifeOnaPlate]

CFR on only one journal found.

I admit to being confused by your CFR. Perhaps you were just mocking me, or maybe you honestly would like me to cite my reference for "one journal being found." In this case it is easy to find the reference, since the reference is located within the hypothetical example I created. "I wondered what it would be like several hundred years down the line" would render me incapable of providing a reference without access to some sort of time machine. I would need to travel to the future and then return with the "one journal" I hypothetically created in my example. But as my friend Mr. T-Rex once pointed out to me, any machine that travels through time has to be a machine that travels through space as well. The earth, you likely know, is spinning on its axis, rotating around the sun as well, which sun is also moving through part of a galaxy moving through a universe. If I try to travel to the future I run the risk of finding myself alone in the vacuum, millions of kilometers away from the earth I left (relative) an instant ago!

[LifeOnaPlate]

I have no control over Ensign illustrations, but I will be giving a Sunday school depiction of Joseph Smith translating, and will be bringing along an old farm hat for the purpose!

(Now if I can only find an egg-shaped chocolate-colored stone.)

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

It's hard to find decent pictures of that hat translation. I used one on my blog a while ago, cobbled into some other images.

http://www.lifeongoldplates.com/2008/09/ga...-theory_10.html

[LifeOnaPlate]

And I acknowledge that it wasn't considered a major crime by any means. The record shows it was a misdemeanor. I would say glass-looking was considered a nuisance rather than outright fraud.

Would this suggest a certain class of people who were aware of the practice enough to try someone over it?

[Areabird]

I admit to being confused by your CFR. Perhaps you were just mocking me, or maybe you honestly would like me to cite my reference for "one journal being found." In this case it is easy to find the reference, since the reference is located within the hypothetical example I created. "I wondered what it would be like several hundred years down the line" would render me incapable of providing a reference without access to some sort of time machine. I would need to travel to the future and then return with the "one journal" I hypothetically created in my example. But as my friend Mr. T-Rex once pointed out to me, any machine that travels through time has to be a machine that travels through space as well. The earth, you likely know, is spinning on its axis, rotating around the sun as well, which sun is also moving through part of a galaxy moving through a universe. If I try to travel to the future I run the risk of finding myself alone in the vacuum, millions of kilometers away from the earth I left (relative) an instant ago!

I interpreted the CFR on one journal to be a joke...as in we are all laughing together.

[Areabird]

Would this suggest a certain class of people who were aware of the practice enough to try someone over it?

Are you referring to my comment

"I wouldn't say that Joseph Smith's society believed in the occult. There were people who participated in magic, like Joseph's own mother, but that didn't make it widespread and acceptable. Joseph was arrested for using his peepstone so I wouldn't say that society thought Joseph was a normal guy like everyone else."

If so, what I meant to say was that I don't think that belief in the occult was pervasive throughout his community, in that most churchgoing folks did it. I'm sure everyone around was aware of it, but I think it was probably looked down upon by most mainstream church going folks.

This reminds me of a guy I knew in my old California ward about 7 years ago. Every few months or so he would talk about visions he had and how he knew this or that would come to pass. He had a regular job, was a very nice guy, and other than mentioning these visions I thought he was pretty normal. I never asked anyone in my ward about him (he had been in the ward for many years) but I also noticed no one ever mentioned his visions, either. I would guess that folks didn't take him too seriously.

Perhaps this is what it was like back then. Church going people included those who dabbled in the occult, but the rest of the congregation weren't too impressed.

[LifeOnaPlate]

I interpreted the CFR on one journal to be a joke...as in we are all laughing together.

Hopefully I've added to the fun.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Are you referring to my comment

"I wouldn't say that Joseph Smith's society believed in the occult. There were people who participated in magic, like Joseph's own mother, but that didn't make it widespread and acceptable. Joseph was arrested for using his peepstone so I wouldn't say that society thought Joseph was a normal guy like everyone else."

If so, what I meant to say was that I don't think that belief in the occult was pervasive throughout his community, in that most churchgoing folks did it. I'm sure everyone around was aware of it, but I think it was probably looked down upon by most mainstream church going folks.

This reminds me of a guy I knew in my old California ward about 7 years ago. Every few months or so he would talk about visions he had and how he knew this or that would come to pass. He had a regular job, was a very nice guy, and other than mentioning these visions I thought he was pretty normal. I never asked anyone in my ward about him (he had been in the ward for many years) but I also noticed no one ever mentioned his visions, either. I would guess that folks didn't take him too seriously.

Perhaps this is what it was like back then. Church going people included those who dabbled in the occult, but the rest of the congregation weren't too impressed.

That is interesting contemporary anecdote, but it doesn't say much for what the atmosphere regarding what we would now call "the occult" consisted of in JS's time. Mark Ashhurst-McGee has written quite a bit on the subject (for example here's a FARMS article he did for the Review.) Richard Bushman talks about it in Rough Stone Rolling and elsewhere, Brant Gardner referred to several sources in this thread, and many articles have appeared in BYU Studies discussing the topic as well. For example, Marvin Hill's "Money-Digging Forklore and the Beginnings of Mormonism: An Interpretive Suggestion." In light of those and other sources, I am not persuaded by your personal anecdote.