Joseph Smith and Money Digging

[Areabird]

That is interesting contemporary anecdote, but it doesn't say much for what the atmosphere regarding what we would now call "the occult" consisted of in JS's time. Mark Ashhurst-McGee has written quite a bit on the subject (for example here's a FARMS article he did for the Review.) Richard Bushman talks about it in Rough Stone Rolling and elsewhere, Brant Gardner referred to several sources in this thread, and many articles have appeared in BYU Studies discussing the topic as well. For example, Marvin Hill's "Money-Digging Forklore and the Beginnings of Mormonism: An Interpretive Suggestion." In light of those and other sources, I am not persuaded by your personal anecdote.

You're sure you're not persuaded? Please double check.

[LifeOnaPlate]

You're sure you're not persuaded? Please double check.

Positive. Your personal anecdote has not persuaded me.

[consiglieri]

Of course, this entire discussion inevitably leads to the question, "If Joseph Smith didn't use the plates in translating, why did he need to have them at all?"

This usually leads to a good deal of speculation, often involving D&C 7 and the parchment written by John and hid up, but yet translated "remotely" by means of Urim and Thummim.

One verse in the Book of Mormon that has become clearer to me as a result of this discussion is Alma 37:7, which appears in the context of discussing the "interpreters":

And the Lord God doth work by means to bring about his great and eternal purposes; and by very small means the Lord doth confound the wise and bringeth about the salvation of many souls.

Although not specifically defined by the text, I believe the "means" referred to here are the special gadgets and gizmos the Lord seems to make use of in his work; gadgets such as the Urim and Thummim, Oliver's rod, Joseph's seer stone, etc.

We may not understand exactly why it is the Lord chooses to work through such "means," but it appears incontrovertible it is his method of choice.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Jeff K.]

An interesting incident happened a three weeks ago. The topic Joseph Smith was brought up with some non LDS friends. One mentioned that treasure hunters of that ilk were an unsavory lot. The 7th day Adventist stood up and went to the closet, brought out one of those metal detector.

"Cool if a bit unsavory".

What would you use before this technology was available?

[Bender]

Jeff K. Posted Today, 03:12 PM

What would you use before this technology was available?

Hopefully something that works.

[talisyn]

I admit to being confused by your CFR. Perhaps you were just mocking me, or maybe you honestly would like me to cite my reference for "one journal being found." In this case it is easy to find the reference, since the reference is located within the hypothetical example I created. "I wondered what it would be like several hundred years down the line" would render me incapable of providing a reference without access to some sort of time machine. I would need to travel to the future and then return with the "one journal" I hypothetically created in my example. But as my friend Mr. T-Rex once pointed out to me, any machine that travels through time has to be a machine that travels through space as well. The earth, you likely know, is spinning on its axis, rotating around the sun as well, which sun is also moving through part of a galaxy moving through a universe. If I try to travel to the future I run the risk of finding myself alone in the vacuum, millions of kilometers away from the earth I left (relative) an instant ago!

You'll just have to get it right the first time

[Mudcat]

I admit to being confused by your CFR. Perhaps you were just mocking me, or maybe you honestly would like me to cite my reference for "one journal being found." In this case it is easy to find the reference, since the reference is located within the hypothetical example I created. "I wondered what it would be like several hundred years down the line" would render me incapable of providing a reference without access to some sort of time machine. I would need to travel to the future and then return with the "one journal" I hypothetically created in my example. But as my friend Mr. T-Rex once pointed out to me, any machine that travels through time has to be a machine that travels through space as well. The earth, you likely know, is spinning on its axis, rotating around the sun as well, which sun is also moving through part of a galaxy moving through a universe. If I try to travel to the future I run the risk of finding myself alone in the vacuum, millions of kilometers away from the earth I left (relative) an instant ago!

I would like two hypothetical CFRs on the time travel bit, as well as another two inverse hypothetical CFRs to bring the hypothetical time continuum back into focus and thereby prevent at least 47 different hypothetical destructions of the universe, or you could simply do 50 hypothetical pushups. Whichever you prefer, hypothetically speaking of course.

[Jeff K.]

QUOTE

Jeff K. Posted Today, 03:12 PM

What would you use before this technology was available?

Hopefully something that works.

So if a dousing rod works.....

[Sevenbak]

Why think Joseph's treasure hunting strange, when we have similar events ongoing in the Bible? Jacob bred his sheep in front of reeds that changed their markings, in order for him to obtain the rich herds from his father in law, Laban.

Or Jesus using spittle and clay to heal a blind man - this was a form used by magicians of the day to perform their miracles.

Of course, the priest of Aaron wore the Urim and Thummim on a breast plate, and worshipped an invisible God that sat between two golden cherubim. The temple of Solomon was designed after the Canaanite temples surrounding Israel.

Shall I go on? Perhaps we should disbelieve the Bible, because it has prophets and others doing folk magic?

Don't forget Joseph in Egypt "divining" by looking in his golden cup. Hmmmmm.

[Jeff K.]

Wonder what he was drinking at the time?

[Sevenbak]

Wonder what he was drinking at the time?

Dunno, but I imagine it must have has some kind of liquid in it when he did it.

Gen. 44: 5

[Bender]

Jeff K. Posted Today, 06:57 PM

So if a dousing rod works.....

I think this hits on an important point. The apologist argument has gone from Joseph wasn't involved in money digging with a stone in the hat to yes he did, but so what, it was an accepted method by his peers. I can understand that part of society believed in these types of magic, particularly the part that Joseph may have grown up in, but it also clear that much of society then didn't feel the same way or Joseph would not have been in court being accused of Glass looking. Even Emma's father didn't agree with what he said Joseph was doing. So Joseph made some mistakes, this to I can accept and not worry to much about.

The problem for many I think comes when they try to accept that the rock in a hat method as coming from God. On one hand you have him seeing with some kind of power lost treasure(which he never did find) and the other translating Plates by the power of God. Seems a bit of a conflict. Second more people today even in the church have more of a problem believing in these type of magics like the seer stone, dousing, palm reading, scrying, crystal balls, etc. Yes these were common methods used by some throughout history and we can find some of those stories in the bible, but more people today don't believe they have any magical properties and are more commonly seem as tools of the conman. This of course makes people wonder whether Josephs seer stone in a hat is any better than others who were employing there own seer stones, crystal balls, etc. especially when evidence that any of this stuff actually works.

[Jeff K.]

I have never argued that Joseph was "not" involved with "money digging". I cannot however speak for other apologists.

One wonders how some aspects of the Old Testament and New Testament are any stranger or different from the acts of Joseph Smith?

[Sevenbak]

I think this hits on an important point. The apologist argument has gone from Joseph wasn't involved in money digging with a stone in the hat to yes he did, but so what, it was an accepted method by his peers. I can understand that part of society believed in these types of magic, particularly the part that Joseph may have grown up in, but it also clear that much of society then didn't feel the same way or Joseph would not have been in court being accused of Glass looking. Even Emma's father didn't agree with what he said Joseph was doing. So Joseph made some mistakes, this to I can accept and not worry to much about.

The problem for many I think comes when they try to accept that the rock in a hat method as coming from God. On one hand you have him seeing with some kind of power lost treasure(which he never did find) and the other translating Plates by the power of God. Seems a bit of a conflict. Second more people today even in the church have more of a problem believing in these type of magics like the seer stone, dousing, palm reading, scrying, crystal balls, etc. Yes these were common methods used by some throughout history and we can find some of those stories in the bible, but more people today don't believe they have any magical properties and are more commonly seem as tools of the conman. This of course makes people wonder whether Josephs seer stone in a hat is any better than others who were employing there own seer stones, crystal balls, etc. especially when evidence that any of this stuff actually works.

Following up on my last post about Joseph in Egypt. There are many things we don't understand about the gifts of seership. Clearly Joseph in Egypt was a great seer, and saved not only Egypt, but all Israel. The Book of Mormon likens Joseph Smith's seership abilities to that of Egypt's Joseph (2 Nephi 3) Why is it that JS is dissed for his abilities to divine with a stone, but Joseph in Egypt is given a pass for divining with a cup?

[talisyn]

I think this hits on an important point. The apologist argument has gone from Joseph wasn't involved in money digging with a stone in the hat to yes he did, but so what, it was an accepted method by his peers. I can understand that part of society believed in these types of magic, particularly the part that Joseph may have grown up in, but it also clear that much of society then didn't feel the same way or Joseph would not have been in court being accused of Glass looking. Even Emma's father didn't agree with what he said Joseph was doing. So Joseph made some mistakes, this to I can accept and not worry to much about.

The problem for many I think comes when they try to accept that the rock in a hat method as coming from God. On one hand you have him seeing with some kind of power lost treasure(which he never did find) and the other translating Plates by the power of God. Seems a bit of a conflict. Second more people today even in the church have more of a problem believing in these type of magics like the seer stone, dousing, palm reading, scrying, crystal balls, etc. Yes these were common methods used by some throughout history and we can find some of those stories in the bible, but more people today don't believe they have any magical properties and are more commonly seem as tools of the conman. This of course makes people wonder whether Josephs seer stone in a hat is any better than others who were employing there own seer stones, crystal balls, etc. especially when evidence that any of this stuff actually works.

I think the problem is all those pictures of the prophets looking like noble Chuck Norrises doing awe-inspiring poses. No one knows how prophets made their living in olden days. Granted, they were taken care of by God, but who's to say God can't provide by a silly man and too much money just as much as manna from heaven?

[Jeff K.]

Abraham Lincoln had a high pitched whiney and tinny voice. Do we see that in the movies? What if Moses was nothing like Charleton Heston and more like Joseph Smith.

[Bender]

Jeff K. Posted Today, 08:49 PM

One wonders how some aspects of the Old Testament and New Testament are any stranger or different from the acts of Joseph Smith?

Some I think are not, but more people in society today tend to put more trust in science then in crystal balls, and such, and I think with good reason. One has had a lot of success, whereas the other has not. When you read about the seer stone in a hat and treasure seeking with the slippery treasure and such I can't help but think it sounds a little hoaky. I have to wonder when Joseph was claiming to receive information from the seer stone about the location of hidden treasure whether he was making it up or whether God would actually give him this information but then not let him get the treasure. The apologetic argument that this was an accepted practice by many in his day doesn't help to give a lot of confidence in the method. I don't think its a testimony burner for most, but I think many still wonder about it's credibility as a divine method of communication.

Sevenbak Posted Today, 09:01 PM

Following up on my last post about Joseph in Egypt. There are many things we don't understand about the gifts of seership. Clearly Joseph in Egypt was a great seer, and saved not only Egypt, but all Israel. The Book of Mormon likens Joseph Smith's seership abilities to that of Egypt's Joseph (2 Nephi 3) Why is it that JS is dissed for his abilities to divine with a stone, but Joseph in Egypt is given a pass for divining with a cup?

Many thing we don't understand, but I think many do not trust these methods today and can also see that these methods have been one of the great tools of the conman and religious leaders throughout history. I think Joseph in Egypt tends to get a pass is that he was supposed to have lived thousands of years ago, and how exactly he was doing these things would be much less known, but I would say that many of the EV types are a little hypocritical here.

talisyn Posted Today, 09:18 PM

I think the problem is all those pictures of the prophets looking like noble Chuck Norrises doing awe-inspiring poses.

I like the poses

[Areabird]

I think the problem is all those pictures of the prophets looking like noble Chuck Norrises doing awe-inspiring poses. No one knows how prophets made their living in olden days. Granted, they were taken care of by God, but who's to say God can't provide by a silly man and too much money just as much as manna from heaven?

Are you saying that perhaps the prophets of old were engaged in treasure finding for hire?

[Areabird]

Following up on my last post about Joseph in Egypt. There are many things we don't understand about the gifts of seership. Clearly Joseph in Egypt was a great seer, and saved not only Egypt, but all Israel. The Book of Mormon likens Joseph Smith's seership abilities to that of Egypt's Joseph (2 Nephi 3) Why is it that JS is dissed for his abilities to divine with a stone, but Joseph in Egypt is given a pass for divining with a cup?

If they have been acceptable methods of divination(?) then why don't the prophets today use seer stones or look in cups? Apparently this has been done for thousands of years so why would we stop now?

[LifeOnaPlate]

If they have been acceptable methods of divination(?) then why don't the prophets today use seer stones or look in cups? Apparently this has been done for thousands of years so why would we stop now?

I would say for one, a lack of faith in the process among other factors like the progress of science generally as well as the increase in quality breakfast cereals.

[consiglieri]

Are you saying that perhaps the prophets of old were engaged in treasure finding for hire?

If I recall correctly, there is evidence that Samuel the Prophet did just that.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[LeSellers]

Are you saying that perhaps the prophets of old were engaged in treasure finding for hire?

Why not? The Bible does.

3 And the asses of Kish Saul's father were lost. And Kish said to Saul his son, Take now one of the servants with thee, and arise, go seek the asses.

4 And he passed through mount Ephraim, and passed through the land of Shalisha, but they found them not: then they passed through the land of Shalim, and there they were not: and he passed through the land of the Benjamites, but they found them not. 5 And when they were come to the land of Zuph, Saul said to his servant that was with him, Come, and let us return; lest my father leave caring for the asses, and take thought for us.

6 And he said unto him, Behold now, there is in this city a man of God, and he is an honourable man; all that he saith cometh surely to pass: now let us go thither; peradventure he can shew us our way that we should go. 7 Then said Saul to his servant, But, behold, if we go, what shall we bring the man? for the bread is spent in our vessels, and there is not a present to bring to the man of God: what have we?

8 And the servant answered Saul again, and said, Behold, I have here at hand the fourth part of a shekel of silver: that will I give to the man of God, to tell us our way. 9 (Beforetime in Israel, when a man went to enquire of God, thus he spake, Come, and let us go to the seer: for he that is now called a Prophet was beforetime called a Seer.)

10 Then said Saul to his servant, Well said; come, let us go. So they went unto the city where the man of God was.

Lehi

[emeliza]

I think this hits on an important point. The apologist argument has gone from Joseph wasn't involved in money digging with a stone in the hat to yes he did, but so what, it was an accepted method by his peers. I can understand that part of society believed in these types of magic, particularly the part that Joseph may have grown up in, but it also clear that much of society then didn't feel the same way or Joseph would not have been in court being accused of Glass looking. Even Emma's father didn't agree with what he said Joseph was doing. So Joseph made some mistakes, this to I can accept and not worry to much about.

I thought he was more taken to court because the nephew thought Joseph was swindling Stowell out of money by claiming he could find the treasure. However, Stowell didn't think Joseph was swindelling him. Also my understanding from the situation wasn't that Joseph went to Stowell saying he could help him find treasure, but rather Stowell came to Joseph.

[Bender]

emeliza Posted Today, 10:00 AM

I thought he was more taken to court because the nephew thought Joseph was swindling Stowell out of money by claiming he could find the treasure. However, Stowell didn't think Joseph was swindelling him. Also my understanding from the situation wasn't that Joseph went to Stowell saying he could help him find treasure, but rather Stowell came to Joseph.

I believe you are right that Stowell's nephew thought he was being swindled, which in the court documents I believe they accuse Joseph of Glass looking. He certainly wasn't the only one who thought that Joseph was trying to swindle him, even though Stowell himself continued to believe, but I haven't seen any evidence that treasure was located. You are also right I believe that Stowell sought Joseph out, but one has to ask, Why? He must have heard something about Joseph that would grab his interest in hiring him. I believe even at that time he already had a reputation for using his seer stone to locate hidden things, unfortunately we have no real proof of this ability from Joseph or anyone else proclaiming the ability, and more people today tend not to believe in these things, which I think is wise.

[emeliza]

He certainly wasn't the only one who thought that Joseph was trying to swindle him, even though Stowell himself continued to believe, but I haven't seen any evidence that treasure was located.

Can you provide any information on others that thought Joseph tried to swindle them for treasure hunting? Or are you meaning other members of Stowell's family thought this?

As for Stowell seeking out Joseph, he might have heard about his abilities or it could be he was hired to do the digging without that knowledge and Joseph told him about his abilities. I don't know.