Joseph Smith and Money Digging

[consiglieri]

My bad, they hanged em here and burned them in England. Thanks Consig.

Regards,

Sentinus

The only reason I know that is because I learned it as a trick question to ask people, "How many people were burned as witches during the Salem witch trials?"

It's sort of like asking how many animals of each kind Moses took on board the ark, only a little more subtle.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Sentinus]

The only reason I know that is because I learned it as a trick question to ask people, "How many people were burned as witches during the Salem witch trials?"

It's sort of like asking how many animals of each kind Moses took on board the ark, only a little more subtle.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Thanks though now I also know the truth, on with our regular scheduled programming. Sorry for the derail guys.

Regards,

Sentinus

[consiglieri]

Try mentioning the 1826 trial in your next class and let us know how that goes.

http://www.lightplanet.com/response/1826Tr...Trial_Hill.html

I was going to, but time ran out. (By the way, I hope nobody thinks I was slamming the sacrament meeting speakers for going long. I merely brought it up by way of explanation as to why I couldn't get to other items of interest, the 1826 trial being one such.)

I especially liked this quote from Mr. Hill in the paper linked to above:

If there was an element of mysticism in Joseph Smith and the other early Mormons which led them to search for treasures in the earth, it does not disprove the genuineness of their religious convictions.

He also notes that everybody already concedes (including Joseph Smith) that he did, in fact, dig for treasure as a youth, so how much does the 1826 trial really matter, regardless of which (if any) of the conflicting accounts are correct.

In this vein, I hope my mentioning of the subject in Sunday School class may serve as a bit of innoculation to those who may encounter it subsequently from less friendly sources.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[mnn727]

Our SS class talked about money digging also -- so far as I know there has not been a mad rush of people resigning their membership. 'Course if a lot of people are missing next Sunday..................

[mnn727]

EQ regularly runs 5-10 minutes over, since we got a new presidency. I expect that will improve when someone from the next ward starts complaining about tying up the classroom.

Or when Elders start standing up and walking out on the hour.

I teach EQ and am very aware of time - my class never runs over - and I also have only once finished all of what I prepared.

[Sevenbak]

The bishop is out of town. :spiteful:My understanding is that he found the stone in question in 1822 while digging a well for Willard Chase.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Ah, quite right. Thanks. Why researching my error, I found this statement my B Y. Kinda cool, IMO.

Brigham Young is reported to have said, "the seer stone which Joseph Smith first obtained He got in an Iron kettle 25 feet under ground. He saw it while looking in another seers stone which a person had. He went right to the spot & dug & found it."

So nothing was obtained from the Stowel well then. (accept of course Emma's acquaintance)

[searchinguy]

No one was bugged or had any issues with the use of the treasure digging stone used in the BoM translation? (or did you only talk about the stone used in treasure digging?) Sweet!

So we expect to see illustrations of Joseph Smith with his head in a hat in the Ensign now when they discuss the BoM translation, right?

[hagoth7]

We learned that the Jewish New Year (Rosh Hashanna sp?) Happened Sept. 22 1927 the same day JS got the plates. The Jewish New Year is also when the Jewish people ask for more covenants to make or the new covenant. Found it interesting that the BofM is talked about sometimes about being the new covenant. What say you?

Could be.

There are a few things about Joseph's mission that bear parallels with Hebrew High Holy days.

[talisyn]

No one was bugged or had any issues with the use of the treasure digging stone used in the BoM translation? (or did you only talk about the stone used in treasure digging?) Sweet!

So can we expect to see illustrations of Joseph Smith with his head in a hat in the Ensign now when they discuss the BoM translation, right?

You know what? If that's what it took to translate the gold plates then so be it. I'm not bugged and I don't see why other people should be, either.

Edited cause I forgot the

[Sevenbak]

You know what? If that's what it took to translate the gold plates then so be it. I'm not bugged and I don't see why other people should be, either.

Edited cause I forgot the

Quite right. Why do people make an issue about a seer stone, but have no problem with him looking into the more formal Urim and Thummim? Both are stones that help channel revelations from God. The fact that there is opposition in all things, should tell us that for every demonic "crystal ball" there is also a righteous version of said principle.

[Mudcat]

My evolution was:

1. Not delve too deep and assume the money digging accusations were tied to the finding of the Gold Plates. No effect on testimony.

2. Learn that JS actually did some money digging that was not related to the Gold Plates. Little harder, but no real effect.

3. Learn that JS BOM translation method, head buried in hat with the peepstone inside was same method even the same peepstone he used for money digging. And the money digging and peepstone predated the BOM translation. Really hard to deal with and along with about 30 other items, ended up pushing me over the edge.

Hi Rob,

I think your point 3 is notable. I can see why it would be a hangup and feel it is well worthy of address.

Though I doubt that Consig's class got this in depth into the topic. I am assuming they probably didn't get past point 2.

Mudcat

[Brant Gardner]

Just for fun perhaps you could show other sources of people using seer stones to find treasure, or translate sacred texts.

I assume that you have done extremely little research on this topic, else you would not ask anything quite so simple. Investigations into scrying and how it worked continued through the middle of last century when the topic seems to have finally lost favor. The following from two very well respected anthropologists.

Concerning the Brahan seer:

An oft-quoted legend tells of the manner in which he came to possess the Second Sight. Coinneach Odhar Fiosaiche, or Kenneth Mackenzie, the Dark, as the name may be in England, received by occult means a magic stone by whose aid he was enabled to see the future. . . .

Gazing idly through the hole in the middle of this pebble, Kenneht observed by its mysterious aid that his wife was approaching, bearing his dinner, and that thereof it contained had unwittingly been rendered unfit for consumption. (Lewis Spence, Second Sight: Its History and Origins (New York, Melbourne, Sydney, and Capetown.: Rider and Company, 1951), 147.

Andrew Lang, Cocklane and Common-Sense (London, New Yor and Bombay: Longman's, Green, and Company, 1896:

There are others, however, who are no more hypnotised by crystal-gazing than tea=drinking, or gardening, or reading a book, and who can still enjoy vision as beautiful as those of the opium eater, without any of the reaction. their condition remains perfectly normal, that is, they are wide awake to all that is going on. In osme way their fancy is enlivened, and they can behold in the glass, just as vivid pictures as many persons habitually see between sleeping and waking illusions hypnagogiques. (p. 213)

The inferences to be drawn from crystal-gazing are not unimportant. First, we note that the practice is very ancient and widely diffused, among civilised and uncivilised people. In this diffusion it answers to the other practices, the magical rites of Australian blacks, Greeks, Eskimo; to the stories of 'death-bed wraiths,' of rappings and so forth. Now this uniformity may be explained by transmission of ideas, or by the uniformity of human nature, while the phenomena themselves may be more invention. (p. 221)

As for Joseph Smith's time, if you really can't think of anywhere to look, you haven't read much of either apologists or critics. I can think of three books off the top of my head that you should have read that would let you know.

[Sentinus]

I assume that you have done extremely little research on this topic, else you would not ask anything quite so simple. Investigations into scrying and how it worked continued through the middle of last century when the topic seems to have finally lost favor. The following from two very well respected anthropologists.

Concerning the Brahan seer:

As for Joseph Smith's time, if you really can't think of anywhere to look, you haven't read much of either apologists or critics. I can think of three books off the top of my head that you should have read that would let you know.

Thanks for the one obscure example, and of course for the veiled insults. Why not list the three books and avoid the inuendo?

Regards

Sentinus

[Tarski]

I think it would be good to mention that digging for buried Spanish treasure was actually not at all unusual in those days. People didn't have bank vaults to protect their valuables in and I believe that the Spanish explorers (and others) probably did bury things of great value--some are probably still out there. It seems silly and superstitious to us, but LDS people are certainly capable of understanding it in the context of history. Anyone see the Shawshank Redemption?

I don't think it is the mere fact of looking for treasure that sounds superstitious to us--people still do it and succeed. It is the parts about visions or remote viewing, using seer stones, guardian spirits, "slippery" treasure, caves full of gold and so on. Treasure seeking is one thing but it seems that for some types, it often came tangled up with what we might call ghost stories and other superstitous fare.

Of course, to me, an angel story is just a pious variation on the ghost story theme.

[Jeff K.]

That was also part of the norm for that period. Dowsing is still used today as a method for finding water in many places in the US. Folk magic was not considered unusual at the time and he was not unique in seeing or searching for money through the idea of folk magic. This is also attested to the idea that such folk magic for different devices used to "find" things being dedicated to God.

So your point is reduced to being upset that society of Joseph Smith's time would consecrate items to God in an effort to find those things beneficial for society. Not really so different today, especially when someone puts on their lucky shirt in order to close a deal.

[Mudcat]

edited for poor humor.

which is a great way to start page three (Really big grin jif)

[Brant Gardner]

Thanks for the one obscure example, and of course for the veiled insults. Why not list the three books and avoid the inuendo?

Sometimes I can't help but match tone.

If you really have no idea about the cultural use of scrying devices, why were you so adamant about your opinion? Wouldn't you agree that it is best to actually be aware of the data before making such firm statements about it?

The reason for the quotations wasn't to be obscure. It was to point out that this has been the topic of reasonable study for a very long time, and that this is a well know practice across a very wide range of humanity.

Dan Vogel treats this topic in his Making of a Prophet. Dan is from the critical side of biography.

Richard Bushman treats it in his Rough Stone Rolling from the believer side of the coin.

Michael Quinn treats it in Early Mormonism and the Magic Worldview.

[Brant Gardner]

I don't think it is the mere fact of looking for treasure that sounds superstitious to us--people still do it and succeed. It is the parts about visions or remote viewing, using seer stones, guardian spirits, "slippery" treasure, caves full of gold and so on. Treasure seeking is one thing but it seems that for some types, it often came tangled up with what we might call ghost stories and other superstitous fare.

Of course, to me, an angel story is just a pious variation on the ghost story theme.

Are you aware of the difficulties anthropologists have in separating the "ghost stories and other superstitious fare" from religion? The time when those things were part of religion (yes, even western religion) isn't that far behind us, and the separation wasn't complete by the 1800's. What we now call superstitious was often regarded as quite pious, if you look in the right places and times. Unfortunately for the people who lived during those times, we have changed and we judge them by our new standards.

Morton Smith, in his Jesus the Magician makes a fascinating case that Jesus exhibited traits of the magus, the kinds of things the "magician" of antiquity was supposed to do. He also suggests that much of the most direct evidence was expunged from the New Testament accounts because later followers were embarrassed about those associations and wanted to make Jesus's story more respectable. It is an interesting thesis.

[Areabird]

That was also part of the norm for that period. Dowsing is still used today as a method for finding water in many places in the US. Folk magic was not considered unusual at the time and he was not unique in seeing or searching for money through the idea of folk magic. This is also attested to the idea that such folk magic for different devices used to "find" things being dedicated to God.

So your point is reduced to being upset that society of Joseph Smith's time would consecrate items to God in an effort to find those things beneficial for society. Not really so different today, especially when someone puts on their lucky shirt in order to close a deal.

I wouldn't say that Joseph Smith's society believed in the occult. There were people who participated in magic, like Joseph's own mother, but that didn't make it widespread and acceptable. Joseph was arrested for using his peepstone so I wouldn't say that society thought Joseph was a normal guy like everyone else.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Wow, he was arrested? CFR.

[Jeff K.]

I wouldn't say that Joseph Smith's society believed in the occult. There were people who participated in magic, like Joseph's own mother, but that didn't make it widespread and acceptable. Joseph was arrested for using his peepstone so I wouldn't say that society thought Joseph was a normal guy like everyone else.

I would say they did. Most of the early American pioneers practiced folk magic (which today is called occult). Dowsing is still around and is a relatively faint reflection of a much more widespread use of the same. Mandrake roots for instance, were regularly harvested up until and after the great depression of the past century, its only curative is that it looks like a man.

It was considered normal then and in some places in the south (Haysi KY for instance from personal knowledge) it is still not uncommon.

[Brant Gardner]

I wouldn't say that Joseph Smith's society believed in the occult. There were people who participated in magic, like Joseph's own mother, but that didn't make it widespread and acceptable.

You are using some labels to describe what they were doing that they did not necessarily use, or, in the case of "magic", understood differently that we do. You are also confusing what "Joseph Smith's society" might have been. There was a large difference between what was believed and practiced by the "folk" from that of the "city" people. This division between the more educated city-centered people and the less educated far-from-city people has been around for a very long time and has virtually always been marked by differences in the way religious topics were understood (and that covers more than just Christianity, it occurred in paganism as well--which, of course, is the reason it was called "pagan" or "country").

[LifeOnaPlate]

A few years ago I wondered what it would be like several hundred years down the line when an anthropologist went digging for information on my high school. From my perspective there were skaters, band geeks, choir boys, stoners, jocks, you name it. But suppose that anthropologist could only discover the journal of one of the choir boys. What a skewed perspective we might get from such a circumstance...

[Lamanite]

A few years ago I wondered what it would be like several hundred years down the line when an anthropologist went digging for information on my high school. From my perspective there were skaters, band geeks, choir boys, stoners, jocks, you name it. But suppose that anthropologist could only discover the journal of one of the choir boys. What a skewed perspective we might get from such a circumstance...

Listen buddy...if you're trying to say Historiography is not a perfect science then you are definitely suffering from massive ignorance and a willful desire to misrepresent the truth. I mean I've seen people on this very board take one entry in a third party journal and extrapolate an almost unending stream of motive, circumstance, and context relating to a certain Joseph Smith. Hell, they can even tell if he had sex with people with the ease of....well something easy.

No no, I'm quite sure that you're mistaken on this one LOAP. Rest assured historiography is quite accurate up to 99.34598837598438783834%

Big UP!

Lamanite

[/sarcasm]

[robuchan]

A few years ago I wondered what it would be like several hundred years down the line when an anthropologist went digging for information on my high school. From my perspective there were skaters, band geeks, choir boys, stoners, jocks, you name it. But suppose that anthropologist could only discover the journal of one of the choir boys. What a skewed perspective we might get from such a circumstance...

CFR on only one journal found.