Joseph Smith's Four Accounts of the First Vision

[Lamanite]

Well, Lamanite, I have yet to meet someone who has complained about the Church hiding stuff, etc. etc. who has not had an opportunity a good part of their life to do the searching.

I suspect the poor widow likely has other things on her mind though more power to her if she cares about those types of things in the here and now, I believe the Spirit will give her what she desires in the appropriate place and time but until then it may be something she has to endure as we all have to endure certain voids/lacks in our lives and learn to make up for them in other ways.

I also suspect that Deborah meant the type people you encounter here on the board who have access to not only the printed word through libraries, but also through the Internet and not a generic every last person in the world.

I've known a few Cal. In fact I'm related to a few.

I'm sure you're right that Deborah was most likely referring to people who have access to the printed word. But because my family is from a third world country, and I still have relatives in a third world country, her rebuke hits close to home.

Ed Decker has in fact proselytized in the Tongan Island of Vava'u where my family resides. They wanted to learn the why's about blacks, polygamy, first vision accounts, mmm, etc. But there are no resources available to them. There is no Internet cafe down the dirt road. No apologetic information that I know of is printed in Tongan. So it would be nice if the Church had a manual of sorts to answer some of those questions for those not fortunate enough to have that info available to them in their native tongue. So maybe we could just get a top 10 answers for difficult questions, type of maual to people who have a desire to know but just don't have access to the answers.

So when Deb says "they have no one to blame but themselves", I just thought it was an inaccurate portrayal of many members of the Church who reside in places, or exist in circumstances where the blame does not rest on their shoulders.

Big UP!

Lamanite

[Deborah]

I think you've made a blanket statement that can't be applied to everyone who live everywhere.

Good grief! Your example is very far-fetched to begin with, but of course any general statement assumes exceptions. My statement as Cal indicated was referring primarily to those who live in places like the USA where they have access to materials if they are really interested in learning more. It is very irritating to hear someone get offended because they never heard something and then blame the church for witholding information beause they never had a desire to get out of their little box before and actually do some studying on their own.

I would think that anyone who comes across something they question would have the sense to at least ask some of the more knowledgeable members of the ward before throwing out everything they already thought they knew. Or maybe getting on their knees and asking about it. In any case I would hope they wouldn't jump to the conclusion that just because they never heard it before then the church must be false. Sometimes one has to table something until an opportunity comes to do more research.

[Lamanite]

Good grief! Your example is very far-fetched to begin with,

Sorry, been thinking about conflict diamonds and the devastation in the 90's and early 21st cent. in countries like Sierra Leone and Angola and some Ivory Coast countries lately. Images of refugees with no hands popped in my head and I thought, "How in the world are they supposed to do this research?" And in actuality, Accra Ghana (where the Temple is) is close enough to Liberia and Cote D'Ivoire to have some of those issues. Where can the Ghanaian's turn for answers? Prayer is the first solution. These people can receive peace until they find answers. But I think they also deserve some Church issued information in the language of their country that addresses some of the anti's propaganda.

Basically the people you described are irritating. However, as the Globalization of the Church continues, we must come up with a solution to the "terrible questions" of the Church, IMO.

Sorry for the graphic example.

Big UP!

Lamanite

[why me]

That has always been my thought. No one tells the same incident the same way everytime unless they have a memorized script.

However, the antis will still find a way to debunk this and just say he didn't get his story straight because he was making it up as he went along. More likely however, is the fact that he was starting to understand more of what he saw.

Which would leave that he acted alone on center stage. But then, you may find the same critics professing that he had accomplices. When one looks at the situation during that time, his 'many' versions would prove that he acted alone if he was a fraudster. And yet, from what I know about fraudsters, it is never make it up as they go along. Usually, in the beginning, there is a plan in place and a well placed plan at that. Bernie Madoff just didn't make it up as he went along, especially not in the beginning.

[Mudcat]

Watson_and_Backman__First_Vision_Harmony_and_Accounts.pdf

Here it is, all of you friends. The First Vision harmony and the accounts.

http://www.eldenwatson.net/harmony.htm

The above may do the trick.

Thanks LOaP and Why Me. I have only had time to browse the link.

Consig,

How did your class go?

Mudcat

[consiglieri]

Okay, time to return and report.

_____________

I introduced the lesson by talking about an experience I had the night before when my 12-year old and I played a game of chess. We went to the chessboard which is kept out and set up on a board on a table in the living room. (It saves the trouble of setting it up and putting it away.)

I looked at the board and all the pieces were present, and they were all set up correctly, and the queen was on her own color. But looking at the board again, I told my daughter that the board was not set up correctly.

I asked the class if there were any chess players and if they knew what I might mean. (Nothing but quizzical faces.) Somebody volunteered about the queen being on her own color, and I reiterated that yes, the queen was on her own color.

I gave them a hint, saying it had to do with the bottom right hand square. (Still no takers.)

So I told them that the bottom right hand square has to be white; but that the board had it as black.

So we had to turn the board ninety degrees and set all the pieces up again.

While we were rearranging the board, my daugher asked me why that was important. I told her I didn't know, but that was just how it was supposed to be done.

________________

I said this reminded me of the First Vision, because every so often in the history of the world, God does something remarkable where he has to have all his chess pieces set up just so.

He has to have the right person in the right place at the right time under the right circumstances.

And so it was with Joseph Smith in the early 19th century.

_______________

I talked about the circumstances surrounding the First Vision; that most of us know that there were a number of different Christian churches competing for converts, and there was a lot of ruckus with each church claiming to be the one true church; and how this caused Joseph Smith a lot of confusion.

But it was more than just an academic question for Joseph Smith; that he wasn't objectively taking notes to write a paper for school. Joseph Smith wanted to know which church was true because he was extremely concerned about the welfare of his own soul. He wanted to be able to have his sins forgiven him. I said it was likely that anybody who wants to know what church is true is doing it because they are concerned about their own eternal welfare. (Here, I mentioned that this would become important later as we discussed the First Vision, and read a passage from Rough Stone Rolling that mentions these two elements, and how the two questions are really one and the same.)

I then added that there was another factor that served as an impetus in Joseph's quest for truth; and that concerned his family. I mentioned how his family was extremely close knit, as many families would need to be back then, what with the common concern of just eking out a daily living, and all hands being needed to do that.

I asked if anybody knew what effect the religious disputes in the community had on Joseph Smith's family.

(Somebody knew the answer to this.)

I clarified that Joseph Smith's mother had joined the Presbyterian church, and three of the children went with her; which I believed to be Hyrum, William and Sophronia.

So every Sunday, Lucy and the three children went to the Presbyterian church, and everybody else stayed home with dad.

I explained that the religious dispute was not something Joseph looked at through his front window as happening in the community alone, but that the dispute had invaded his own family and divided them up, as well.

(Here, I forgot to mention that Joseph Smith's words to his mother after the First Vision were not what he had seen; but only that he had learned for himself that Presbyterianism was not true; indicating that was the thing he thought most important to tell his mother, and indicating how deep the divide had been in his family--credit to Richard Bushman for that insight.)

_______________________

I then went over the four different accounts that Joseph Smith had given of the First Vision, writing 1832, 1835, 1838 and 1842 up on the board; and starting with 1838 which was the official version and had been given as part of the History of the Church that Joseph Smith dictated.

At this strategic point, I held up a copy of the 1985 Ensign article discussing all four versions and mentioned that to the class, so that the students would be less likely to throw things as I proceeded with the lesson. (An elderly brother whom I home teach came up after class and expressed an interest in the article so I gave him my copy.)

I mentioned that in the 1838 version, one thing we know for sure is that it wasn't all written down, and had somebody read from JSH 1:30 regarding the many other things that were not written.

I said that in the other accounts, Joseph Smith mentioned additional details, and we can get a fuller understanding of what happened by looking at those.

1832--I then went to 1832, and explained that this was more of an autobiography that Joseph Smith had begun of himself, and he briefly describes the First Vision, focusing on the fact that the Lord told him his sins were forgiven. I read the entire passage about the Lord opening the heavens and the Lord speaking to him, without comment, except for focusing on the fact that his sins were forgiven him.

(Here another seasoned member of the class raised his hand and volunteered that this account mentioned only "one Lord" appearing to Joseph, and that this was used by the "anti's" to say that Joseph Smith changed his story, but that Joseph gave different accounts to different people mentioning different things. Although I did not necessarily agree that Joseph specifically mentioned only "one Lord" in this account, I just let his statement stand, and continued on with the lesson.)

D&C 20:5--I said that once we understand how primary to Joseph Smith was his forgiveness of sins, we are better able to understand a passage in the Doctrine and Covenants (20:5), which was given the day the church was organized on April 6, 1830; where it is said that "after this first elder received a remission of his sins, he was again entangled in the sins of the world."

I identified that as the First Vision, and said that this, then, is the earliest reference we have to the First Vision in the Standard Works.

I tied this into the fact that when Joseph has his encounter with Moroni three-years later, he was praying not to have an angel appear, but because he had fallen into sin and temptation since the First Vision, and he wanted to know what his standing was before God; sort of an update request.

In the 1832 account, we also learn that this is a question that had vexed Joseph for three-years before the First Vision; he went through an extensive period of questioning and wondering and pondering and studying.

Finally, the 1832 account is the only account which mentions that for many days after the First Vision, Joseph was filled with love and joy and felt that God was with him.

________________________

1835 account--Introduced this account as being given to a traveling minister named Joshua; and it can be found in TPJS; asked if anybody had it; hardly anybody did.

I mentioned this is the account which refers to Joseph hearing the sound of somebody walking behind him; and he gets up and looks around and nobody is there.

(Here, the same older gentleman mentioned that Joseph didn't really go into a "grove" of trees to pray, but that he went to the area close by the house which they used to cut down trees for wood; it was an open area, and so it would be natural for somebody to be coming into the area; and that is what Joseph Smith thought was happening, but nobody was there when he looked. I said that is probably why accounts from other people mention Joseph going to a tree trunk with his axe buried in it to pray.)

The 1835 account also has the first words being uttered that Joseph's sins are forgiven him.

The 1835 account says that the two beings did not appear simultaneously, but that one appeared, and a short time later, the second one appeared.

_______________________

1842 account--I asked if anybody knew where this one appeared, and nobody did; so I told them it was in the Wentworth Letter; that Mormons pretty much all know the Articles of Faith appeared in the Wentworth Letter because it gets drilled into us so much; but that it was a full newspaper page full of print and the AoF were just at the end; the rest of it was a history of the rise and progress of the Church up to 1842, and part of that was an account of the First Vision.

Mentioned that most of us understand that the two beings looked the same; but that is not in the PGP account; it is mentioned only in the 1842 account; and we have lots of artwork based on that, showing the Father and the Son as identical.

Also once again mentioned that first one appeared, and later the second appeared.

Also mentioned that this account, more than any other, emphasizes the "visionary"; that some talk about the First Vision as the First Visitation, but that it is not clear whether it was a vision or a visitation, and that at bottom, it didn't really matter which it was, but that the 1842 account speaks of Joseph being taken away from the things of the world, and not seeing anything else around him, and being "enwrapt" in the vision; which makes it sound more like a vision; and that after all, we do refer to it as the First Vision.

Also mentioned that this is the only account that contains the promise God made to Joseph Smith that if he were faithful, he would be the means of restoring God's true church to the earth.

________________________

1976 First Vision movie--I asked how many people had seen this movie, with Stewart Peterson playing Joseph Smith at the acme of his acting career; even though I said that I think he appears in a cameo role in the temple film, but I'm not sure it is he because there are no credits that roll at the end.

I mentioned that this movie was produced under the direction of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve, and that it incorporates details from the different First Vision accounts, including this final promise to Joseph Smith from the 1842 version, as well as the sound of somebody walking up behind him from the 1835 account.

_________________________

I then related my experience on the roof of my friend's house back in the spring of, not 1830, but 1978. By then, the time was up.

_________________________

One other thing of interest that happened was that a sister sitting by herself in the back who almost never contributes raised her hand and said that she had read Rough Stone Rolling, too, and she had found it interesting that "everybody was having visions" at that time, and so there wasn't anything particularly surprising about what Joseph Smith saw.

I am sure that I got a pained look on my face at this, but trying to encourage her while correcting her; I started out by saying that she was correct that there are several accounts of different persons experiencing heavenly visions of some sort within several years before and after Joseph Smith; and that they were within probably a 100 mile radius of where Joseph Smith lived; and that, while that was true, it would probably be an overstatement to say that "everybody was having visions." I mentioned that it would probably be difficult to come up with any time in the history of Christianity when some people somewhere weren't claiming to have visions, but that she was correct about this aspect, and that I was glad she found it interesting, and thanked her for sharing it with us.

(Though it popped into my mind, I did not mention that there were several people at the time of Christ who claimed to be the Son of God and/or the Messiah, but that it might be an overstatement to say that "everybody was claiming to be the Messiah.")

___________________________

I would be happy to hear comments either supportive or criticial (but mostly supportive) regarding my lesson.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[zerinus]

I would be happy to hear comments either supportive or criticial (but mostly supportive) regarding my lesson.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

You told us what you did (which was a lot of doing)!

Now tell us what the class did.

zerinus

[consiglieri]

You told us what you did (which was a lot of doing)!

Now tell us what the class did.

zerinus

You mean besides the six who got up at various points and walked out of class making rude noises?

And besides the four who picked up assorted fruits and vegetables they had brought for the occasion and began throwing them in my general direction?

Well other than these miscreants, the rest of the class remained in rapt attention, a subtle but definite glow began to emanate from their countenances over the course of the lesson, and at the end, all the students still present honored me by standing and giving an impromptu version of "Hail Brittania."

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Scott Lloyd]

Why don't you let them decide what bothers them and provide them with the different accounts to read?

I generally agree with The Nehor's comment about handouts in Sunday School. If any class member is interested enough to approach me outside of class about the matter, I will probably provide him or her with a reference to the relevant pages in Opening the Heavens, which I consider the best treatment to date on this subject.

[consiglieri]

Now tell us what the class did.

zerinus

On a tad more serious note, I actually did mention several instances of what the class did in my report, which more than a cursory scan would have revealed.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[zerinus]

You mean besides the six who got up at various points and walked out of class making rude noises?

And besides the four who picked up assorted fruits and vegetables they had brought for the occasion and began throwing them in my general direction?

Well other than these miscreants, the rest of the class remained in rapt attention, a subtle but definite glow began to emanate from their countenances over the course of the lesson, and at the end, all the students still present honored me by standing and giving an impromptu version of "Hail Brittania."

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

That was a boring lesson then, wasn't it!

You gave them a lecture, right? The manual discourages that.

It recommends a method teaching that involves high level of class member participation.

zerinus

[consiglieri]

That was a boring lesson then, wasn't it!

You gave them a lecture, right? The manual discourages that.

It recommends a method teaching that involves high level of class member participation.

zerinus

You are once again living up to my intentional misspelling of your name.

[zerinus]

You are once again living up to my intentional misspelling of your name.

That is silly. If you disagree with what I said, you can tell us why.

zerinus

[bluebell]

That is silly. If you disagree with what I said, you can tell us why.

zerinus

Come on zerinus, you're making yourself look like an idiot. Your comment on his lesson was really lame-he reacted in kind. Now you guys are even. Probably time to just walk away.

[Lamanite]

That was a boring lesson then, wasn't it!

You gave them a lecture, right? The manual discourages that.

It recommends a method teaching that involves high level of class member participation.

zerinus

Man that was hella BUSH LEAGUE!

[emeliza]

Consig~

Sounds like it went well and the spirit was with you. Glad of that.

My lesson was a lot like Bluebells. We only barely covered the First Vision at all and that was done with about 3 minutes left in the lesson. I did get my hand up and commented about how Joseph's sins were forgiven and it was in another account of the 1st Vision.

[HiJolly]

That was a boring lesson then, wasn't it!

You gave them a lecture, right? The manual discourages that.

It recommends a method teaching that involves high level of class member participation.

zerinus

You either don't have many friends, or you have tons of money. Sheesh.

HiJolly

[consiglieri]

You either don't have many friends, or you have tons of money. Sheesh.

HiJolly

And he must look real good in a swimsuit, too.

[why me]

And he must look real good in a swimsuit, too.

Zerinus is used to fighting it out on the catholic board, so at times he may forget that he is now on a mormon board and among friends.

You class seemed like a great class and I wish that I was a class member. I think that it went very well and that you covered the material of the differing accounts very well. The information itself would have provoked some discussion from the class since perhaps most of the students were unaware of the differing accounts. Bringing in the Ensign was the clincher in creating a good atmosphere. The adage: if it is in the Ensign, it must be true would hold the day and the class disseters at bay. Good job!!!

[Anijen]

Consig

While we were rearranging the board, my daughter asked me why that was important. I told her I didn't know, but that was just how it was supposed to be done.

The board and pieces are set up that way so as white (or as black) you can castle to the right side (kingside) with only moving two pieces (the Kings Knight and Bishop). You will not be able to castle to the right (kingside) if you have the black square at your bottom right. Also because that is just how it is supposed to be done. Sorry to be a know it all (just on chess).

Your lesson sounded like it went well.

We have a guy in our class who likes to be a commentator and express his opinions (rather loudly), he sat behind me and I couldn't concentrate on the teacher as much as I would have liked to because I didnt want to seem rude to the loud know it all behind me. He said that Joseph Smith senior was a drunk and that is why Alvin provided for the family up to his death. Ugh I hate it when he talks like that. When my wife is with me she will just turn around and shush him. Why don't I do that (not wanting to hurt his feelings I guess). Zerinus reminded me of him, sorry to digress.

[consiglieri]

Zerinus reminded me of him.

The drunk, or the loud know-it-all?

[Anijen]

The drunk, or the loud know-it-all?

The loud know it all

[zerinus]

The drunk, or the loud know-it-all?

I stand by whay I said. The Church discourages the "lecture" style of teaching. It recommends one that encourages class discussion. Here is a quote from the mannual:

Encourage Class Discussion

You normally should not give lectures. Instead, help class members participate meaningfully in discussing the scriptures. The Lordâ??s counsel regarding class discussion is found in D&C 88:122: â??Appoint among yourselves a teacher, and let not all be spokesmen at once; but let one speak at a time and let all listen unto his sayings, that when all have spoken that all may be edified of all, and that every man may have an equal privilege.â?

Use the following guidelines as you encourage class discussion:

1. Ask thought-provoking questions. Questions that begin with why, how, who, what, when, and where are usually most effective for encouraging discussion. Seek the Spiritâ??s guidance as you study the questions in this manual and decide which ones to ask.
   
   
2. Invite class members to briefly share experiences that relate to scriptural principles you are discussing. Also encourage them to share their feelings about what they are learning from the scriptures. Help them understand that spiritual experiences and feelings should be shared â??with care, and by constraint of the Spiritâ? (D&C 63:64). Some experiences and feelings are not appropriate to share.
   
   
3. Be sensitive to the needs of each class member. Although all class members should be encouraged to participate in class discussions, some may hesitate to respond. You may wish to speak privately with them to find out how they feel about reading aloud or participating in class. Be careful not to call on class members if it might embarrass them.
   
   
4. Give scripture references to help class members find the answers to some questions.
   
   
5. If a few class members seem to be taking most of the time during a discussion, make an effort to include those who have not yet contributed. You may need to gently change the flow of the discussion by saying, â??Letâ??s hear from someone elseâ? or â??Would someone else like to add to what has been said?â?
   
   

It is more important to help class members understand and apply the scriptures than to cover all the lesson material you have prepared. If class members are learning from a good discussion, it is often helpful to let it continue rather than try to cover all the lesson material. However, if a discussion is not helpful or edifying, you should redirect it.

My experience (and I think everyone's experience) is that lessons that involve class discussion, and are well conducted, turn out to be the most interesting and spiritually edifying lessons; whereas those in which the teacher lectures, and everyone else listens, are the least interesting and instructive.

zerinus

[Anijen]

I stand by whay I said. The Church discourages the "lecture" style of teaching. It recommends one that encourages class discussion. Here is a quote from the mannual:

Encourage Class Discussion

You normally should not give lectures. Instead, help class members participate meaningfully in discussing the scriptures. The Lordâ??s counsel regarding class discussion is found in D&C 88:122: â??Appoint among yourselves a teacher, and let not all be spokesmen at once; but let one speak at a time and let all listen unto his sayings, that when all have spoken that all may be edified of all, and that every man may have an equal privilege.â?

Use the following guidelines as you encourage class discussion:

1. Ask thought-provoking questions. Questions that begin with why, how, who, what, when, and where are usually most effective for encouraging discussion. Seek the Spiritâ??s guidance as you study the questions in this manual and decide which ones to ask.
   
   
2. Invite class members to briefly share experiences that relate to scriptural principles you are discussing. Also encourage them to share their feelings about what they are learning from the scriptures. Help them understand that spiritual experiences and feelings should be shared â??with care, and by constraint of the Spiritâ? (D&C 63:64). Some experiences and feelings are not appropriate to share.
   
   
3. Be sensitive to the needs of each class member. Although all class members should be encouraged to participate in class discussions, some may hesitate to respond. You may wish to speak privately with them to find out how they feel about reading aloud or participating in class. Be careful not to call on class members if it might embarrass them.
   
   
4. Give scripture references to help class members find the answers to some questions.
   
   
5. If a few class members seem to be taking most of the time during a discussion, make an effort to include those who have not yet contributed. You may need to gently change the flow of the discussion by saying, â??Letâ??s hear from someone elseâ? or â??Would someone else like to add to what has been said?â?
   
   

It is more important to help class members understand and apply the scriptures than to cover all the lesson material you have prepared. If class members are learning from a good discussion, it is often helpful to let it continue rather than try to cover all the lesson material. However, if a discussion is not helpful or edifying, you should redirect it.

My experience (and I think everyone's experience) is that lessons that involve class discussion, and are well conducted, turn out to be the most interesting and spiritually edifying lessons; whereas those in which the teacher lectures, and everyone else listens, are the least interesting and instructive.

zerinus

Z,

I realize you are trying to be helpful but you were not there (as far as I know) and I don't think you could judge that it was a lecture or not. From how consig described it he had class participation.

[why me]

I stand by whay I said. The Church discourages the "lecture" style of teaching. It recommends one that encourages class discussion. Here is a quote from the mannual:

Encourage Class Discussion

You normally should not give lectures. Instead, help class members participate meaningfully in discussing the scriptures. The Lordâ??s counsel regarding class discussion is found in D&C 88:122: â??Appoint among yourselves a teacher, and let not all be spokesmen at once; but let one speak at a time and let all listen unto his sayings, that when all have spoken that all may be edified of all, and that every man may have an equal privilege.â?

Use the following guidelines as you encourage class discussion:

1. Ask thought-provoking questions. Questions that begin with why, how, who, what, when, and where are usually most effective for encouraging discussion. Seek the Spiritâ??s guidance as you study the questions in this manual and decide which ones to ask.
   
   
2. Invite class members to briefly share experiences that relate to scriptural principles you are discussing. Also encourage them to share their feelings about what they are learning from the scriptures. Help them understand that spiritual experiences and feelings should be shared â??with care, and by constraint of the Spiritâ? (D&C 63:64). Some experiences and feelings are not appropriate to share.
   
   
3. Be sensitive to the needs of each class member. Although all class members should be encouraged to participate in class discussions, some may hesitate to respond. You may wish to speak privately with them to find out how they feel about reading aloud or participating in class. Be careful not to call on class members if it might embarrass them.
   
   
4. Give scripture references to help class members find the answers to some questions.
   
   
5. If a few class members seem to be taking most of the time during a discussion, make an effort to include those who have not yet contributed. You may need to gently change the flow of the discussion by saying, â??Letâ??s hear from someone elseâ? or â??Would someone else like to add to what has been said?â?
   
   

It is more important to help class members understand and apply the scriptures than to cover all the lesson material you have prepared. If class members are learning from a good discussion, it is often helpful to let it continue rather than try to cover all the lesson material. However, if a discussion is not helpful or edifying, you should redirect it.

My experience (and I think everyone's experience) is that lessons that involve class discussion, and are well conducted, turn out to be the most interesting and spiritually edifying lessons; whereas those in which the teacher lectures, and everyone else listens, are the least interesting and instructive.

zerinus

I do believe that consig knew this. As you can see from his posts on this forum, he is always encouraging discussion. I am sure that his class went the same...discussion and deliberation. But to give a summary of the entire discussion would have been lengthy and time consuming. And so, no one is disagreeing with you about the church's stance on class discussion.

But you did misunderstand his summary and its intent. It was about how he brought up the knowledge of the different interpretations of the first vision.