James Whiteâ??s YouTube diatribeâ?¦

[The Nehor]

â??Mormonism is the most polytheistic religion that I have ever encounteredâ?¦â?

Poor guy must not know any Hindu or Shinto practitioners or hasn't even encountered them through reading. Such a small-minded man should probably be ignored.

[Bsix]

I do not believe that Mormonism is a polytheistic religion. Nor do most observers without a propagandistic axe to grind.

Traditional Christianity is monotheistic only because it has bent itself into a theological pretzel to define three seperate dieties into one single God.

With that said, in the strictest sense Mormonism is not purely monotheistic. We declare that the Godhead is comprised of three individual Gods who are one in purpose and unity. We recognize that other gods may exist.

The closest term to descrive what Mormonism believes is monolarty -- the worship of a single god but without claiming that it is the only god.

It is not a perfect fit...but much closer and more accurate than polytheism. I doubt that folks like James White will ever describe Mormonism with more accurate terms like 'monolarty' because he is in the business of making propaganda. To describe Mormonism in terms that hark to anything close to monotheism would undermine his polemic objectives.

Regards,

Six

[Cold Steel]

To deny that LDS are polytheists, is to deny truth.

Well, let's look at what one Internet source says: "Ask a Christian to explain the Trinity sometime when you want a good laugh. To Christians, there is One True God, who is in fact three Gods. There is God the Father who is the Old Testament Jewish God, Yahweh. There is God the Son, Jesus, born of a woman and ascended into Heaven. And then there is the amorphous Holy Spirit. Three completely separate entities with three very different personalities. ... Sounds like three gods, yeah? Not very monotheistic of them."

Christians can't have it both ways. They must either recognize that the "oneness" of God is in purpose, or they must admit to being rank polytheists. You, Billy, are a polytheist!

"Christians explain this in an abstruse, labyrinthine concept call The Trinity. Basically, the three gods are one god, the one god is three gods, and if you don't understand that you are an ignorant twit who will burn in Hell."

See, anyone can play your game. Touche!

[smac97]

I have a question: Are trinitarianism and polytheism mutually exclusive descriptors? In my view, they are not. In fact, the former seems to reflect the latter by definition.

-Smac

[coolrok7]

So coolrok, are you saying that you know more about the gospel and scripture than Origen did? If you did, I would find that very fascinating in view that Origen was one of the main leaders in the early Church.

Are you saying that we should reject his views simply because he didn't write scripture? Have you written any scripture?

Edited: Are you also saying that God is a God of false gods and idols? That doesn't make any sense.

Mormonism only recognizes the following as "Scripture". At least until conference or the next printing of "The Ensign". For Latter-day Saints the written source of authority are the â??The Standard Works of the Church. . .â? which includes the Bible (which they and others end up twisting as stated above). These writings- â??scriptureâ? â??constitute the written authority of the Church in doctrine.â? â??In addition. . .the inspired words of our living prophets become scripture to us. . . .â? (their version of Sola Scriptura):

As Latter-day Saints we accept the following scriptures as the standard works of the Church: the Bible (consisting of the Old Testament and the New Testament), the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price, and official statements made by our leaders. Regarding the Bible: There is a misconception that the Bible is one book instead of a collection of sixty-six books, thirty-nine of which comprise the Old Testament and twenty-seven of which constitute the New Testament. (The Ensign, Church magazineâ??contains official statements of leaders, Church Conference, Elder Henry D. Taylor, Nov. 1976, p.63)

In addition to these four books of scripture, the inspired words of our living prophets become scripture to us. Their words come to us through conferences, Church publications, and instructions to local priesthood leaders. (Gospel Principles manual, Salt Lake City: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1988, pp. 49-51)

The Standard Works of the Church constitute the written authority of the Church in doctrine. Nevertheless, the Church holds itself in readiness to receive additional light and knowledge â??pertaining to the Kingdom of Godâ? through divine revelation. . .We rely therefore on the teachings of the living oracles of God as of equal validity with the doctrines of the written word. The works adopted by the vote of the Church as authoritative guides in faith and doctrine are four: the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. Many books have been and are being published by officers and members of the Church, and such may be sanctioned by the people and the ecclesiastical authorities; but the four publications named are the regularly adopted â??Standard Works of the Church.â? Of the doctrines treated in the authorized standards, the Articles of Faith may be regarded as a fair though but partial summary. (The Articles of Faith, James Talmage, p.7)

Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (known informally by the nickname Mormons) believe the Bible. Indeed, so literally and completely do their beliefs and practices conform to the teachings of the Bible that is not uncommon to hear informed persons say: â??If all men believed the Bible, all would be Mormons.â? Bible doctrine is Mormon doctrine, and Mormon doctrine is Bible doctrine. They are one and the same. But as is well known, the Bible does not contain all the doctrines and truths taught by the prophets and apostles, nor have the teachings preserved in it come down to us in an absolutely perfect form. There are and have been many translations and versions of the Bible, each of which varies from the others.â? (WHAT THE MORMONS THINK OF CHRIST pamphlet, p.3)

There are a lot of people who are Christian that don't accept the BofM and are not Mormon in light of Biblical warnings that Mormons don't give heed to.

[Jaybear]

We recognize that other gods may exist.

Why the "may." Isn't it more accurate to say Mormons believe that other Gods do exist? Seems to me that you are tying to obfuscate what is obvious and to them, a significant difference in your respective beliefs.

I do not believe that Mormonism is a polytheistic religion. Nor do most observers without a propagandistic axe to grind.

I disagree. My perceptions is that Mormon's belief that God was once a man, who worshiped his creator God, is considered heresy by the evangelical community.

The fact that you do not worship these other Gods is absolutely irrelevant to their objections to your belief. How is it propagandistic and polemic for White or others to point out this divergent belief.

[thesometimesaint]

coolrock:

That is a side issue. But to answer your question Christians believe the same thing. Or are you going to abandon the New Testament?

[coolrok7]

coolrock:

That is a side issue. But to answer your question Christians believe the same thing. Or are you going to abandon the New Testament?

Why is it a side issue. It has to do with what is recognized as "Scripture" from the Mormon perspectve of which I reject for the reasons stated. I don't reconize so-called Mormon scripture as acurately representing true Biblical doctrine.

[Bernard Gui]

David understood what we are talking about:

God takes his stand in the court of heaven

to deliver judgement among the gods themselves.

Psalm 82:1

So they pass on from outer wall to inner,

and the God of gods shows himself in Zion.

Psalm 84:7

For the Lord is a great God,

a great king over all gods...

Come! Let us throw ourselves at his feet in homage,

let us kneel before the Lord who made us;

for he is our God,

we are his people,

we the flock he shepherds.

Psalm 95:3

For thou, Lord, art most high over all the earth,

far exalted above all gods.

Psalm 97:9

Give thanks to the God of gods;

his love endures for ever.

Give thanks to the Lord of lords;

his love endures for ever.

Psalm 136:2-3

Bernard

[thesometimesaint]

coolrock:

It is a side issue because we are discussing the nature of the Godhead, not what is or isn't Scripture.

Whether you do or don't the Saints do. Just as obviously did the early Saints in accepting the New Testament.

[Bsix]

Why the "may." Isn't it more accurate to say Mormons believe that other Gods do exist? Seems to me that you are tying to obfuscate what is obvious and to them, a significant difference in your respective beliefs.

I disagree. My perceptions is that Mormon's belief that God was once a man, who worshiped his creator God, is considered heresy by the evangelical community.

With all due respect, I cited a dictionary definition for monolarty, and observed that of all the various definitions...I believed it is the most accurate in terms of most completely describing our theology.

As a matter of formal or official LDS doctrine, we do not know of, or name any other Gods. Only the Godhead comprised of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost are known of, or recognized by LDS theology. As a matter of assumed-to-be-true extrapolation of LDS doctrine is the existence of other gods. Our doctrine does not formally accept this to be true. Thus, the concept of monolarty by which we we accept that there "may" be other Gods is a much better (still not perfect) description than polytheism.

The fact that you do not worship these other Gods is absolutely irrelevant to their objections to your belief. How is it propagandistic and polemic for White or others to point out this divergent belief.

I believe that James White is not interested in fairly explaining Mormon doctrine. He is a professional countercultist. His intent and objective is to make propaganda against other religions and thus to further his agenda. As such, he has very little interest in the best categorical description of LDS beliefs.

Regards,

Six

[smac97]

My thought is that polytheism carries with it a connotation of gods who are adverse to each other to some extent.

Greco-Roman mythology is replete with contests and arguments between the gods. Same with Norse and Egyptian mythologies. These gods are not omnibenevolent. They are often capricious, indifferent to human suffering, and even malicious at times.

These contentions, this lack of unity amongst omnipotent beings, together with their human frailties (caprice, apathy, malice) makes for pretty interesting reading (I've long been a student of Greco-Roman mythology), but is unpalatable if contemplated in a real-world setting.

So when John Q. Protestant wants to slap the "polytheism" label on Mormonism, he generally does so with the intent to draw a subtle (or not so subtle) link to the pagan pantheons described above. Indeed, many critics have used the term "pantheon" to directly describe LDS belief (see, e.g., here, here, here, here).

This article states that the "head gods" of the pantheons in Greek, Roman, Norse, Central American and Hindu belief (Zeus, Jupiter, Odin, Kukulkan/Quetzalcoatl and Brahma, respectively) "are strikingly similar to Mormonism's Elohim."

This article refers to the Godhead in LDS believe (the society of God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost) as a "pantheon" (as do Margaret and Paul Toscano).

The connotation (linking polytheism to the capricious, argumentative pantheons of Greco-Roman myth and other belief systems) is a pretty heavy one. And this connotation is, I think, the primary reason why folks like James White want to use it.

Meanwhile, I can't help but chuckle at the the irony of trinitarians pulling this term out as an accusation against Mormons. True monotheists (such as Jews and Muslims) apparently don't agree that trinitarianism is compatible with monotheism.

-Smac

[jwhitlock]

I believe that James White is not interested in fairly explaining Mormon doctrine. He is a professional countercultist. His intent and objective is to make propaganda against other religions and thus to further his agenda. As such, he has very little interest in the best categorical description of LDS beliefs.

This pretty much sums it up.

The brush of polytheism is broadly applied to Mormonism in order to produce the worst possible connotation - including the charge that Mormons actually worship multiple gods in a pagan manner, which is patently false.

On the other hand, as smac has noted, orthodox Christians perform significant contortions in order to avoid the application of polytheism to the concept of trinitarianism.

It's a contrast in standards that is fascinating to observe. One can only come to the conclusion that the charge of polytheism against Mormonism by White and others is only calculated to denigrate, and not to really understand what Mormons really believe. As such, White is unreliable as an accurate source concerning Mormonism.

[Bsix]

A couple more observations:

1) I find interesting that Evangelical Christianity invests and consumes so much in the way of propaganda targeted at other religions. I can't explan the appitite for it.

2) It is difficult to find any comparable sort of countercult industry in Mormonism.

Regards,

Six

[jwhitlock]

Another interesting reference to the concept that Paul, at least, understood the real existence of others who were termed "gods" is found in 2 Cor 4:3-4:

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

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In this case, Paul is referring to Satan as "the god of this world", a real being who works in opposition to God the Father and Christ. That Paul refers to Satan as a "god" is interesting; it would appear to be clear evidence that in Paul's time, at least, the concept of other real "gods" was understood and accepted. Whether those "gods" do not really exist (such as idols), or whether they do exist and whose side those gods are on needs to be evaluated in the Bible on a case by case basis where references to other gods are made.

Of course, Paul also makes it clear that God the Father and Christ are the ones that we worship and through whom our salvation comes, and that they have no peers. This is consistent with LDS theology. However, the term "god" seems to be understood somewhat more broadly by Paul than orthodox Christianity currently acknowledges.

Our Christian friends would like us to believe that a one size definition of polytheism and gods fits all. That is clearly not the case in the Bible.

[coolrok7]

coolrock:

It is a side issue because we are discussing the nature of the Godhead, not what is or isn't Scripture.

Whether you do or don't the Saints do. Just as obviously did the early Saints in accepting the New Testament.

The nature of the godead is found in Scripture (the Bible) but is distorted in the specific Mormon so-called "Scripture".

[Jaybear]

As a matter of formal or official LDS doctrine, we do not know of, or name any other Gods. Only the Godhead comprised of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost are known of, or recognized by LDS theology. As a matter of assumed-to-be-true extrapolation of LDS doctrine is the existence of other gods. Our doctrine does not formally accept this to be true. Thus, the concept of monolarty by which we we accept that there "may" be other Gods is a much better (still not perfect) description than polytheism.

Your verbal tap dancing aside, and "official doctrine" or not, is it not accurate to say that Mormons believe that there is more than one God? I have yet to have a conversation with any mormon who does not believe in either eternal progression, or that God has a wife, even if they don't know much about God's god, or of God's wife.

I believe that James White is not interested in fairly explaining Mormon doctrine. He is a professional countercultist. His intent and objective is to make propaganda against other religions and thus to further his agenda. As such, he has very little interest in the best categorical description of LDS beliefs.

I think its fair to say that White believes that the LDS belief that God was once a man, or that God has a wife are heretical.

I don't see that he needs to engage in propaganda or polemics to press his point.

Frankly, rather than dispute his premise, perhaps you should point out that Mormon theology is more advanced than EV theology because you have the benefit of modern prophets to shed light on the nature of God. By contrast, EVs are limited to the use of the Bible, which as we all know has been the subject of numerous translations and revisions.

My thought is that polytheism carries with it a connotation of gods who are adverse to each other to some extent.

Nah. Polytheism carries with it the connotation that God is not the one and only God. Merely expressing the possibility that other Gods exist, regardless of whether they rule separately, or over the earth in harmony or discord, is offensive to the EVs.

Whitlock: It's a contrast in standards that is fascinating to observe. One can only come to the conclusion that the charge of polytheism against Mormonism by White and others is only calculated to denigrate, and not to really understand what Mormons really believe. As such, White is unreliable as an accurate source concerning Mormonism.

So are you saying that if EVs "really understood" what mormons really believe, they wouldn't consider such beliefs to be heretical?

Nah. What you fail to grasp is that EVs love mormons, its the mormonism they consider an offense to God. They are not out to get you, they are out to save you, and those who might consider converting to mormonism.

[Cold Steel]

There are a lot of people who are Christian that don't accept the BofM and are not Mormon in light of Biblical warnings that Mormons don't give heed to.

Yes, it's the height of hypocrisy, isn't it? Another Internet blogger states: "Muslims believe Christians to be Polytheist in spite of the scriptural evidence to the contrary...." We can easily make the statement that "Creedal Christians believe Mormons to be Polytheist in spite of evidence to the contrary...." Isaiah writes: "Thus saith the LORD...beside me there is no God. ... Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any."

Who is speaking? Is it the Father? Is it the Son? Or the Holy Spirit?

Let's look at the words of Stephen just before he was stoned: "And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God." So is Jesus not God? If God does not know of any other God, then what, or who was the "Son of Man"? Once one gets into word games, see the fun one can have? Obviously, the critic might say, Stephen did not consider Jesus as God! And Jesus Himself said He was ascending to "my God and to your God." So what does He mean? To whom is he ascending? The God who knows of no other God? How hypocritical it is for creedal Christians to say, "If we're going to play word games, then you have to abide by our rules!" (Otherwise, how else can they win?) Posters like Billy and Johnny will simply have to do better. Oh, and I noticed that James White has disabled text responses. How absolutely sporting he is!

...I can't help but chuckle at the the irony of trinitarians pulling this term out as an accusation against Mormons. True monotheists (such as Jews and Muslims) apparently don't agree that trinitarianism is compatible with monotheism.

Yeah, I don't know whether to laugh or cry. It is laced with irony.

[David Waltz]

Hi all,

Good discussion so far. Smacâ??s following thoughts are worth repeating:

>>Meanwhile, I can't help but chuckle at the the irony of trinitarians pulling this term out as an accusation against Mormons. True monotheists (such as Jews and Muslims) apparently don't agree that trinitarianism is compatible with monotheism.>>

And it is not just Jews and Muslims who charge Trinitarians with â??polytheismâ??; it is important to point out that some Trinitarians charge other Trinitarians with â??polytheismâ??!!! In the follow thread, I quote an Eastern Orthodox scholar who charges John Calvin with tritheism:

http://articulifidei.blogspot.com/2008/10/...ic-heretic.html

I should also point out that many Evangelical scholars have emphatically stated that Social Trinitarianism is tritheistic...

When all is said and done, one should take serious the reflections of the Evangelical scholar, Larry Hurtado, who penned:

In place of this rather Aristotelian approach, I urge us to work more inductively, gathering what â??monotheismâ? is on the ground, so to speak, from the evidence of what self-professed monotheists believe and practice. In fact, I suggest that for historical investigation our policy should be to take people as monotheistic if that is how they describe themselves, in spite of what we might be inclined to regard at first as anomalies in their beliefs (Larry W. Hurtado, "What Do We Mean by 'First-Century Jewish Monotheism'?" Society of Biblical Literature 1993 Seminar Papers, ed. Eugene H. Lovering Jr., Atlanta: Scholars Press, 1993, pp. 354-355.)

Grace and peace,

David

[Obiwan]

Muslims think "Christians" are Polytheistic because of the Trinity (but that's not accurate is it).... Thus, James as usual needs to get his head out and get a clue.

[Obiwan]

The nature of the godead is found in Scripture (the Bible) but is distorted in the specific Mormon so-called "Scripture".

Sorry, your wrong.... Traditional "Christian" religions have distorted the GodHead. What is found in the Bible is entirely the LDS version.

Your religions have micro focused on a few scriptures thinking they claim your Trinity, and you ignore other's which clearly contradict your Trinity creation. Taken as a WHOLE, the Bible teaches entirely the LDS version. By the way, this was one thing I saw very quickly from being in your religions having the Bible only myself LONG BEFORE ever knowing of the LDS Church. It was clear as day to me that you weren't teaching what the Bible fully stated accurately. You created a new doctrine.

[jwhitlock]

So are you saying that if EVs "really understood" what mormons really believe, they wouldn't consider such beliefs to be heretical?

Nah. What you fail to grasp is that EVs love mormons, its the mormonism they consider an offense to God. They are not out to get you, they are out to save you, and those who might consider converting to mormonism.

Sorry, but this is fully contradicted by reality. I don't, very often, feel the love.

And frankly, EVs in general don't really understand squat about Mormonism. They only understand what they read from tabloid anti-Mormonism, which is a highly inaccurate resource, as White demonstrates.

[mfbukowski]

On 12-29-08, James White posted an anti-Mormon video on YouTube:...

â??Mormonism is the most polytheistic religion that I have ever encounteredâ?¦â?

Yet, the LDS apostle, Jeffrey R. Holland, in the October 2007 GC address that James is critiquing, states:

There are many serious problems with Jamesâ?? video; but, for the moment, I would like to address the issue of whether or not Latter-day Saints are polytheistsâ??as such, I am looking forward to your responses.

Grace and peace,

David

At some point we will have to stop worrying about if we are polytheists or "Christians" in this changing world where people fight over definitions and leave substance behind.

And yet, it seems certain that the debates have hurt our PR and the missionary effort. To me, that is the more significant issue -- do we worry about the PR side of it, which we have not for 180 years, or somehow address the issue directly as a PR problem? I think the prop 8 furror and the Romney presidential bid has thrust us into the limelight -- the question is what do we do about THAT? This could be a time of great opportunity for the church. Just as bad economic times can create billionaires, the church now has a chance to jump to a higher level of attention. The question is how best to use opportunities like these as they present themselves.

[mfbukowski]

Poor guy must not know any Hindu or Shinto practitioners or hasn't even encountered them through reading. Such a small-minded man should probably be ignored.

I was thinking the same thing, but you wrote it better than I thought it.

[urroner]

What about God's wife or wives. Is she or are they not also Gods?

Seems to me that she should merit a mention.

She is mentioned in the Bible, both OT and NT. See Margaret Barker's writings about this. She is often mentioned as Wisdom in the OT, especially in the Psalms.