Billy Posted January 3, 2009 Posted January 3, 2009 Despite my being clear, you promptly dismissed my post with a "what does this have to do with anything" comment.In fact, your definition, given here, points to the inaccuracies perpetrated by critics of the Church when they accuse Mormons of being polytheistic. By stating that LDS believe in gods other than the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, both you and they - with your definition - want to leave the uninformed non-Mormon with the impression that LDS also worship those other gods.This, of course, is inaccurate. And it's also why your definition and its application is inaccurate, as has been pointed out on this thread.You are entirely incorrect on this point. If you read my post #4 you will see that what you are saying is inaccurate.To deny that LDS are polytheists, is to deny truth.God the Father is a GodGod the Father's Father is a GodYou have the potential to become a godThe fact that you worship only one God does not make you a monotheist, it makes you a henotheist or a monarchical polytheist, but you are still a polytheist.
Brade Posted January 3, 2009 Posted January 3, 2009 If LDS believe in more than one God, why is it an issue admitting that they are polytheistic? It is simply admitting to what you believe.Who are you talking about when you say "they?" I'm LDS and I admit I'm a polytheist.
urroner Posted January 3, 2009 Posted January 3, 2009 Everybody, Billy has admitted he is a member of a cult, therefore he is a cultist.
Billy Posted January 3, 2009 Posted January 3, 2009 Who are you talking about when you say "they?" I'm LDS and I admit I'm a polytheist.LDS in general, when I quoted you I was not specifically addressing you, rather I was just adding to the point that you made.
Billy Posted January 3, 2009 Posted January 3, 2009 Everybody, Billy has admitted he is a member of a cult, therefore he is a cultist.http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cultcult Pronunciation:\ˈkəlt\Function:nounUsage:often attributiveEtymology:French & Latin; French culte, from Latin cultus care, adoration, from colere to cultivate â?? more at wheelDate:16171: formal religious veneration : worship2: a system of religious beliefs and ritual ; also : its body of adherentsIf this is the definition that you are going to use, then I am a member of a cult.
Tanyan Posted January 3, 2009 Posted January 3, 2009 http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cultcult Pronunciation:\ˈkəlt\Function:nounUsage:often attributiveEtymology:French & Latin; French culte, from Latin cultus care, adoration, from colere to cultivate â?? more at wheelDate:16171: formal religious veneration : worship2: a system of religious beliefs and ritual ; also : its body of adherentsIf this is the definition that you are going to use, then I am a member of a cult.
jwhitlock Posted January 3, 2009 Posted January 3, 2009 You are entirely incorrect on this point. If you read my post #4 you will see that what you are saying is inaccurate.And of course, you continue to purposely ignore the aspect of worshiping those various gods, which was part of your definition.Because, Billy, the concept of worship and the God through whom salvation comes are significant qualifying aspects of what polytheism is. You seem to be unwilling to limit the discussion to the three members of the Godhead, and so you make the same mistake that James White does in applying a label with too broad a brush.Seems like you are willing to pick and choose in order to apply your label, ignoring those things which are problematic to your claim.Are you welling to address the specifics of what is problematic - such as the aspects of "worship" - with your claim, or are you simply going to bore full steam ahead with your rather inaccurately applied label in order to justify yourself?Of course, it's been pointed out in this thread that the Bible itself acknowledges the existence of other gods of various types, while being very clear that true Christians do not worship them, and that salvation does not come through them. This is consistent with LDS belief. Yet you insist on expanding the application of which gods LDS worship in order to try to make your label stick, and also to inaccurately portray what LDS belief really is. In doing so, you demand that you be the authority on what we believe. As long as you continue to make that mistake, we'll continue to correct you.
Billy Posted January 3, 2009 Posted January 3, 2009 And of course, you continue to purposely ignore the aspect of worshiping those various gods, which was part of your definition.What are you talking about? NOTE I have not only bolded the applicable section but I also underlined it so that you can see that I did NOT purposely ignore the aspect of worship, but I addressed it specifically. Recall that this was in post #4, right at the beginning of the thread. Not only did I address YOUR specific point, but I also gave 2 other terms that also imply that you worship one GOD, namely henotheist and monarchial polytheism.To deny that LDS are polytheists, is to deny truth.God the Father is a GodGod the Father's Father is a GodYou have the potential to become a godThe fact that you worship only one God does not make you a monotheist, it makes you a henotheist or a monarchical polytheist, but you are still a polytheist.heno
Cold Steel Posted January 3, 2009 Posted January 3, 2009 So how many gods can you believe in before you're a polytheist? Billy says we're polytheists because we believe that "God" is comprised of more than three individual beings. If we can become as God, and if Jesus has a Father and His Father has a Father, we're polytheists. But he believes in three. After One, isn't it immaterial how many Gods may be comprised in God? Once you get beyond ONE, you're treading in dangerous waters.Oh, Billy, you thought you could get away from us, but we PULL YOU BACK IN!Admit it, you old polytheist, you!
Billy Posted January 3, 2009 Posted January 3, 2009 So how many gods can you believe in before you're a polytheist? Billy says we're polytheists because we believe that "God" is comprised of more than three individual beings. If we can become as God, and if Jesus has a Father and His Father has a Father, we're polytheists. But he believes in three. After One, isn't it immaterial how many Gods may be comprised in God? Once you get beyond ONE, you're treading in dangerous waters.Oh, Billy, you thought you could get away from us, but we PULL YOU BACK IN!Admit it, you old polytheist, you! Belief in more that one God is polytheismI believe in one God, thus I am a monotheistHowever, I do admit that when I was LDS, I did believe in many Gods, so at that time I WAS a polytheist.
jwhitlock Posted January 3, 2009 Posted January 3, 2009 Again I addressed worship in post #67 as well. Maybe you should read a few of my posts before you falsely accuse me.And so you continue to want to have your cake and eat it, too.Polytheism, by the definition you noted, consists of the worship of multiple gods.Yet you admit that we don't worship those other gods.Yet you continue to insist that we're polytheists.Your posts contradict themselves.Billy, you're mislabeling us. The label doesn't fit. How clear does it have to be before you figure it out?
Billy Posted January 3, 2009 Posted January 3, 2009 And so you continue to want to have your cake and eat it, too.Polytheism, by the definition you noted, consists of the worship of multiple gods.Yet you admit that we don't worship those other gods.Yet you continue to insist that we're polytheists.Your posts contradict themselves.Billy, you're mislabeling us. The label doesn't fit. How clear does it have to be before you figure it out?You are incorrect again. You said that my definition consists only of worship of multiple gods. But if you read it closely you will see that is not entirely true. I have posted it below, read it carefully. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/polytheismpoly
David Waltz Posted January 3, 2009 Author Posted January 3, 2009 Hello again Billy,In your response to me you said:>>Needless to say that my views have changed somewhat since that day and I now proudly say that I believe in only one God.>>Me: So you believe that there is only one person who is God? If not, if you believe that more than one person is God, then you must radically redefine what belief in one God means; and if you allow yourself to do so, then you should really allow Mormons like Jeffrey Holland, Bruce R. McConkie, Dr. Paulsen, Blake Ostler, et al. to do the same.Grace and peace,David
Tanyan Posted January 3, 2009 Posted January 3, 2009 Belief in more that one God is polytheismI believe in one God, thus I am a monotheistHowever, I do admit that when I was LDS, I did believe in many Gods, so at that time I WAS a polytheist.
Brade Posted January 3, 2009 Posted January 3, 2009 LDS in general, when I quoted you I was not specifically addressing you, rather I was just adding to the point that you made.Got it. I must admit, I also find it a bit unusual that "LDS in general" have such a tough time with the idea of polytheism. I don't see any rational way to deny I am a polytheist. I believe that there exists more than one god and I worship more than one god and I don't see how any LDS can say any different. We're polytheists through and through.
urroner Posted January 3, 2009 Posted January 3, 2009 Got it. I must admit, I also find it a bit unusual that "LDS in general" have such a tough time with the idea of polytheism. I don't see any rational way to deny I am a polytheist. I believe that there exists more than one god and I worship more than one god and I don't see how any LDS can say any different. We're polytheists through and through.The problem with the word "polytheist" is that Billy has found a definition that throws an "or" statement in it "believe in or worship." We do believe in more that one God, heck, even the Early Christians called Christ the Second God, but Billy will eventually throw out part of the "or" statement and start saying the we worship more than one God and being an antagonist of the Church, he will feel perfectly justified in doing so. I even bet that he is doing this out of love for us.
cdowis Posted January 3, 2009 Posted January 3, 2009 To deny that LDS are polytheists, is to deny truth.God the Father is a GodGod the Father's Father is a GodYou have the potential to become a godThe fact that you worship only one God does not make you a monotheist, it makes you a henotheist or a monarchical polytheist, but you are still a polytheist.So, we are polygamists like the Romans and the Greeks. A pantheon of different gods who control lightening, others who are over the ocean, love, the muses, etc. These deities compete with each other, contend for power and control. Some of them are locked away in prison.Amazing.This is a profound insight into what I actually believe. Thanks so much for educating me on my beliefs.Sounds like the end of discussion with you, Billy, because if I disagree with you, I am merely "denying the truth". No room for discussion here.
urroner Posted January 3, 2009 Posted January 3, 2009 So, we are polygamists like the Romans and the Greeks. A pantheon of different gods who control lightening, others who are over the ocean, love, the muses, etc. These deities compete with each other, contend for power and control. Some of them are locked away in prison.Amazing.This is a profound insight into what I actually believe. Thanks so much for educating me on my beliefs.Sounds like the end of discussion with you, Billy, because if I disagree with you, I am merely "denying the truth". No room for discussion here.Polygamists? If you want to talk about having more than one wife to worship, start a new thread cdowis!!!!
Billy Posted January 3, 2009 Posted January 3, 2009 So you believe that there is only one person who is God?No I believe that there are three persons in ONE God. But I use to believe that there are three separate Gods yet one in purpose. Coming out of Mormonism and being raised with the concept of three separate Gods, belief in the idea of one God in three persons was a difficult concept for me. If was an easier concept to visualize three separate Gods who were just like me in many ways, but just more advanced. But because it is an easier concept to grasp does not necessarily make it true. If you were raised to believe that the world was flat, if someone comes around and tells you it is round it may be a difficult concept to grasp, yet still true. It is either three separate Gods who are one in purpose like the LDS believe, OR it is three person who make up one God, but both concepts can't both be true because they are mutually exclusive ideas (or both ideas can be wrong).If not, if you believe that more than one person is God, then you must radically redefine what belief in one God means; and if you allow yourself to do so, then you should really allow Mormons like Jeffrey Holland, Bruce R. McConkie, Dr. Paulsen, Blake Ostler, et al. to do the same.Grace and peace,I think that God has already been radically redefined way before Holland and McConkie, don't you?1. We do not believe that God the Father had a father2. We do not believe that God the Father has a wife or multiple wives3. We do not believe that God the Father and his wife had spiritual children in a pre earth life4. We do not believe that Jesus is our brother5. We do not believe that Jesus is Satans brother6. We do not believe that God the Father lived on another planet as a man7. We do not believe that God the Father is the literal father in the flesh of Jesus8. We do not believe that God the Father has a physical body9. We do not believe that the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost are Three SEPARATE Gods
jwhitlock Posted January 3, 2009 Posted January 3, 2009 You are incorrect again. You said that my definition consists only of worship of multiple gods. But if you read it closely you will see that is not entirely true. I have posted it below, read it carefully. The definition from merriam states the polytheism is"belief in OR worship of more than one god"Belief in more than one God. OR worship of more than one God. The OR means that to meet the requirements of the definition it can be one OR the other (or both). Now if it said AND, that would mean that both are required to fill the requirements of the definition.Do you believe in more than one God? If yes then you are a polytheist.BTW do you worship only God the Father? What about Jesus, do you worship him or not?Both you and James White are very willing to leave the door open to the "worship of multiple gods" if you can make the polytheism label stick. In fact, with the label of polytheism, that's the very impression you want to give the uninformed reader - that Mormons worship gods other than the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.That's why the label of polytheism is inaccurate. And the concept of worship is what you continue to tap dance around; you want us to accept polytheism as you broadly define it, and then once the camel's nose is in the tent, you can move on to misrepresenting what / who Mormons worship.Whether you want to admit it or not, the concept and inference of polytheism touches on the worship of multiple gods. It's disingenuous to dismiss it as irrelevant. If you really want to be correct, you might explore the other terms that have been presented in this thread that more accurately describe LDS theology. However, I'm not sure that understanding LDS theology is really your motivation here.As an interesting aside, you have also managed to paint yourself into another corner in this discussion. You have "proudly" proclaimed yourself a monotheist, and yet it is clear that the Bible itself accepts the designation of others as "gods", as has been discussed previously in this thread. In your haste to broadly apply the label of polytheism to "believing in multiple gods", while dismissing the worship of those gods, you have indirectly admitted the polytheistic - by your own definition - leaning of the Bible.Again, however, you are a proud monotheist. As such, it appears that your belief system concerning God is un-Biblical by the very label you want to stick to Mormonism. Such is the danger of applying terms with too broad a brush; that broad application can come back to bite you in unexpected ways.
erichard Posted January 3, 2009 Posted January 3, 2009 ... I don't see any rational way to deny I am a polytheist. I believe that there exists more than one god and I worship more than one god and I don't see how any LDS can say any different. We're polytheists through and through.Hi ba81,What about D&C 20?28 Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.One cannot discuss and cuss the Polytheism controversy without bringing out the medieval philosophical underpinnings of non-Mormon, Bible believing faiths.If the creedal Trinity concepts were not so omnipresent in religious teachings, one could easily read the New Testament and accept that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three separate beings UNITED as ONE God.The US Senate has 100 members, but is ONE Senate. That is not a hard idea to understand.And if there are other Godheads for other worlds, as Mormon theology seems to predict, then they also are ONE with the Godhead we worship, so there still is only ONE God.Only if the concept of ONE must also mean "without parts" does the Mormon concept of God have to mean Polytheism. But the "without parts" idea is not really in the New Testament.Richard
David Waltz Posted January 3, 2009 Author Posted January 3, 2009 Good day Billy,Thanks for responding; you wrote:>>I believe that there are three persons in ONE God. But I use to believe that there are three separate Gods yet one in purpose. Coming out of Mormonism and being raised with the concept of three separate Gods, belief in the idea of one God in three persons was a difficult concept for me. If was an easier concept to visualize three separate Gods who were just like me in many ways, but just more advanced. But because it is an easier concept to grasp does not necessarily make it true.>>Me: Despite pleadings to the contrary, you then, are not a strict monotheist. And depending on how you define PERSON, you will ultimately end up either a neo-modalist, neo-tritheist, or quaternitarian, with only the first falling into the true monotheism. For a sampling of just some of the Trinitarian difficulties, go here:http://articulifidei.blogspot.com/search/label/TrinityGrace and peace,David
Billy Posted January 3, 2009 Posted January 3, 2009 Me: Despite pleadings to the contrary, you then, are not a strict monotheist. And depending on how you define PERSON, you will ultimately end up either a neo-modalist, neo-tritheist, or quaternitarian, with only the first falling into the true monotheism.I did not think I was "pleading" in my comments.This is what I believe1. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three distinct persons (most evident at Christ's baptism)2. Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God3. There is only one GodBut what I believe about God is not really what this thread is about. This thread is about Mormonism and polytheism.The question remains, are Mormons polytheists by definition?
Teancum Posted January 3, 2009 Posted January 3, 2009 To teancum/urroner. In the Old Testament the nation of Israel was in disobedience to God going after the false gods of the surrounding nations. They were forbiddent to do that in the tablets given to Moses on Mount Sainai.CoolrokStudy your history. It is pretty clear Israel allowed for the existence of other gods, real gods, not false gods. They did not worship any other God than Yaweh, the god El assigned to them. King Josiah seemed to do away with this with Deuteronomy (which was not written by Moses).By the way, just so you know, I typically don't read lengthy cut and pastes. I don't like your posting style really. You seem to think a huge copy job from whatever source you think proves your point somehow is a good way to debate. Of course some referencing is fine. But you do it much to much and it becomes meaningless, especially when you quote very old out of date LDS books or tracts.
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