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James Whiteâ??s YouTube diatribeâ?¦


David Waltz

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Rabbit trails all over the place. Start a new thread.

You make a statement about core beliefs (as noted below) and say that we don't answer--"silence is deafening"

But Aquilifer, all the core belief of Christianity are shared by all Christians with no disagreements. I have been told so by many EVers here on this board and when asked to specify what these core doctrines are, the silence is deafening...well, actually, the sounds of rabbit creating new trails and red herrings flopping around on the ground are overwhelming, but this is all for another thread.

Then when we answer your question, you turn around and say we are derailing the thread, go figure.

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This thread is not about the Trinity, go back to the OP and re-read it. It is about whether or not the LDS are POLYTHEISTS.
My bad. Between dealing with my boys and attempts to stop an infestation of roaches in my house, I hate those things, I lost track of the thread subject. Sorry to one and all.
So again I will ask you the answer to the following questions1. Is God the Father a God?2. Is God the Father's Father a God?3. Can you become a god?If you answer yes to more than one of the above questions, then you are a polytheist. It is as simple as that.
1. Yes. Eloheim is a God.2. My personal beliefs, yes.3. Through theosis, yes.No Billy, since I answered your questions, would you please answer mine.1. What is polytheism?2. Are the mainstream Christian scholars who have stated that the First Temple period Jews worshiped Eloheim and His son Jehovah and the son was known as the Second God. Are these scholars mistaken?3. Is God a God of false idols and false gods?
You make a statement about core beliefs (as noted below) and say that we don't answer--"silence is deafening"Then when we answer your question, you turn around and say we are derailing the thread, go figure.
For your entertaining pleasure, I'll start a new thread and then you can create all the trails over there.
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This thread is not about the Trinity, go back to the OP and re-read it. It is about whether or not the LDS are POLYTHEISTS.

Because part of the accusation of polytheism is the nature of the LDS Godhead, the nature of the Trinity is very much an issue. Jews and Muslims routinely accuse mainstream Christians of polytheism on the basis of the Trinity, so I think it's clearly fair game for the discussion of Mormon "polytheism".

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1. What is polytheism?

Belief in more than one God

2. Are the mainstream Christian scholars who have stated that the First Temple period Jews worshiped Eloheim and His son Jehovah and the son was known as the Second God. Are these scholars mistaken?

If they say that there is more than one God, then in my opinion they are wrong, because I believe in only one God.

3. Is God a God of false idols and false gods?

There is only one God. False gods are imaginary.

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This thread is not about the Trinity, go back to the OP and re-read it. It is about whether or not the LDS are POLYTHEISTS.

So again I will ask you the answer to the following questions

1. Is God the Father a God?

2. Is God the Father's Father a God?

3. Can you become a god?

If you answer yes to more than one of the above questions, then you are a polytheist. It is as simple as that.

We believe in the GODHEAD. When speaking to a more learned individual I use the Title:- "Anchient/Monarch/Eastern/Economic/Social/Godhead/Trinity".

Each is in possesion of the True GOD DNA and can be each called "GOD".

I believe this topic has been discussed adinfinentum in the past.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

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Because part of the accusation of polytheism is the nature of the LDS Godhead, the nature of the Trinity is very much an issue. Jews and Muslims routinely accuse mainstream Christians of polytheism on the basis of the Trinity, so I think it's clearly fair game for the discussion of Mormon "polytheism".

That may be true. But remember the OP was not about the nature of the Christian idea of the Trinity, but whether or not Mormonism is polytheistic. I think that when discussing polytheism with Mormons, it is best to avoid the Trinity all together because it then becomes an issue of one God verses one in purpose. It is easy enough to avoid that whole debate and note that God the Father has a Father who was a God and that you can become a God. Thus polytheism without even discussing the Trinity.

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That may be true. But remember the OP was not about the nature of the Christian idea of the Trinity, but whether or not Mormonism is polytheistic. I think that when discussing polytheism with Mormons, it is best to avoid the Trinity all together because it then becomes an issue of one God verses one in purpose. It is easy enough to avoid that whole debate and note that God the Father has a Father who was a God and that you can become a God. Thus polytheism without even discussing the Trinity.

But, by your definition, Muslims and Jews believe you are a polytheist. How about social Trinitarianism, is that a polytheistic belief? There is plenty of evidence that the Jews of the First Temple period believe in a head god, Eloheim and that He had 70 sons (consider to be "eloheim" (gods) also and that He divided up the nations of the world among His sons and He gave the head of these 70 sons, Jehovah, Israel to rule over and it's mainstream Christian scholars who are promoting this. Would the First Temple Jews be considered polytheistic if this is true?

What are the differences between polytheism, henotheism, monolatrism, and kathenotheism.

When God the Father is said to be God of gods, who are these other gods? Are they false idols?

When God the Father is said to be the Most High God, is there a Most Low God or even a Most Average God? If there in only one God, then would calling Him the Most High God be a little redundant? Wouldn't that be like my sons telling me I am the best father they have ever had. I'm the only father they have ever had.

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If LDS believe in more than one God, why is it an issue admitting that they are polytheistic? It is simply admitting to what you believe.

You don't seem to have grasped the concept - as it has been discussed in this thread - that the term "polytheism" carries a number of negative connotations having to do with pagan and idolatrous worship that don't apply to LDS theology in any sense of the term. Hence our rejection of the dogmatic and ignorant application of the term "polytheist" as applying to the LDS understanding of God.

Of course, several alternative suggestions for terms have been made in order to understand LDS theology concerning the nature of God, along with explanations of why both James and you are wrong in your attempts to define LDS theology for members of the Church, by telling us what we really believe.

Then again, you don't seem to want to understand what we believe, do you? You seem more intent on applying a label and making it stick, no matter what.

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Hi Lynn,

You wrote:

>>I wonder how far this thread will go in showing that Christianity agreement on the Trinity isn't all that agreed upon, but those mainstreamer will do everything possible to drag this thread off track or they will refuse to answer questions about their differences.>>

Me: Well said; just the differences among conservative Trinitarian Christians concerning the Trinity is significant. I recently finished yet more book that details some of the more recent divisionsâ??a good portion of the book is available online at:

http://books.google.com/books?id=ACwJIt_bp...+Father#PPA5,M1

Grace and peace,

David

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But, by your definition, Muslims and Jews believe you are a polytheist.

Why are you changing the subject.

This thread is not about what we as mainstream Christians believe, it is about what YOU as a LDS member believes.

If you are a polytheist, why is it so difficult for you to say that you are?

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You don't seem to have grasped the concept - as it has been discussed in this thread - that the term "polytheism" carries a number of negative connotations having to do with pagan and idolatrous worship that don't apply to LDS theology in any sense of the term. Hence our rejection of the dogmatic and ignorant application of the term "polytheist" as applying to the LDS understanding of God.

But what does what you say have to do with anything? If you are a polytheist, why not admit it and shout it from the rooftops? If it is true, then it is true and why be ashamed of it?

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But what does what you say have to do with anything? If you are a polytheist, why not admit it and shout it from the rooftops? If it is true, then it is true and why be ashamed of it?

"What does what you say have to do with anything?"

An excellent display of dogmatism at its worst. Thanks for confirming my observation.

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Hi Billy,

You posted:

>> But what does what you say have to do with anything? If you are a polytheist, why not admit it and shout it from the rooftops? If it is true, then it is true and why be ashamed of it?>>

Me: I canâ??t speak for Mormons, but I suspect it is because the term â??polytheismâ? is a pejorative one in our Western culture. But, the real issue (IMHO) is over whether or not more than one PERSON is truly God. The fact that most Christians believe 3 PERSONS are each God complicates the issue (throw in deification of the saints and gets even more complex).

Grace and peace,

David

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Hi Billy,

You posted:

>> But what does what you say have to do with anything? If you are a polytheist, why not admit it and shout it from the rooftops? If it is true, then it is true and why be ashamed of it?>>

Me: I canâ??t speak for Mormons, but I suspect it is because the term â??polytheismâ? is a pejorative one in our Western culture. But, the real issue (IMHO) is over whether or not more than one PERSON is truly God. The fact that most Christians believe 3 PERSONS are each God complicates the issue (throw in deification of the saints and gets even more complex).

Grace and peace,

David

But if it is true, then it is true. When I was LDS I believed in many Gods, I was a bona fide polytheist. I believed that God had a father who was a God and that I could become a god of my own world and live with multiple wives in heaven and have millions of spiritual children who would populate a world similar to the world that we live on now.

Needless to say that my views have changed somewhat since that day and I now proudly say that I believe in only one God. I can see how a LDS thinks that God the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three distinct separate Gods who are one in purpose, because that is what I believed at one time.

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Hi Billy,

You posted:

>> But what does what you say have to do with anything? If you are a polytheist, why not admit it and shout it from the rooftops? If it is true, then it is true and why be ashamed of it?>>

Me: I can't speak for Mormons, but I suspect it is because the term "polytheism" is a pejorative one in our Western culture.

I thought that I was being clear in my post that this was a concern with the user of polytheism, rendering it quite inaccurate in describing Mormon theology. Other terms concerning the concept of "gods" or even "Gods" have been presented in this thread that are probably closer to the mark.

However, thanks for reiterating it for Billy. Maybe it will sink in the second time.

BTW, just out of curiosity, from a Catholic standpoint, do you find significant differences in Trinitarian understanding within the RCC, or is the disagreement concerning the doctrine more pronounced outside of the RCC? I've been trying to read a little bit of Sheed here and there to get a better handle on it from a Catholic viewpoint, but I still sense a variety of opinions on the details among my RCC acquaintances.

Likewise, on the subject of the application of polytheism among LDS, there seem to be a number of opinions (as is evident on this thread) as to how the term really be applied, and how accurate it is in describing LDS theology. Indeed, while there is general LDS agreement on the fact that there is God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost - as separate persons - when we start to dig down into how those persons are worshiped and how they are addressed, opinions start to diverge somewhat. It seems that in trying to philsophically define them, we only point out the difficulties in our temporal understanding of the details of who they really are.

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Do you believe the following are true or false statements?

1. God the Father is a God

2. God the Father's Father is a God

3. You can become a god

Three is enough to be a polytheist, Billy. Welcome to the club!

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So Billy, if I asked you if your religion is a cult, then you would be more than happy to profess to one and all that it is a cult. I mean, if it's true, then it's true and it's true.

Are you asking me when I was a LDS member, or as a mainstream Christian member?

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I thought that I was being clear in my post that this was a concern with the user of polytheism, rendering it quite inaccurate in describing Mormon theology. Other terms concerning the concept of "gods" or even "Gods" have been presented in this thread that are probably closer to the mark.
You don't seem to have grasped the concept - as it has been discussed in this thread - that the term "polytheism" carries a number of negative connotations having to do with pagan and idolatrous worship that don't apply to LDS theology in any sense of the term. Hence our rejection of the dogmatic and ignorant application of the term "polytheist" as applying to the LDS understanding of God.

I think you were very clear in your earlier post. You stated, "the term "polytheism" carries a number of negative connotations having to do with pagan and idolatrous worship that don't apply to LDS theology in any sense of the term." So because the term polytheism has negative connotations, the term should not apply to LDS, which I disagree with. Polytheism has a defined defintion that people can look up in any dictionary. Either your beliefs fit that definition or they don't, it doesn't really matter if you feel that the term has a negative connotation.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/polytheism

poly

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I think you were very clear in your earlier post. You stated, "the term "polytheism" carries a number of negative connotations having to do with pagan and idolatrous worship that don't apply to LDS theology in any sense of the term." So because the term polytheism has negative connotations, the term should not apply to LDS, which I disagree with. Polytheism has a defined defintion that people can look up in any dictionary. Either your beliefs fit that definition or they don't, it doesn't really matter if you feel that the term has a negative connotation.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/polytheism

poly

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