Another Question About The Book Of Ether

[consiglieri]

I have a few more questions regarding the Book of Ether, specifically the manner in which the brother of Jared manufactured sixteen stones, as related in the verse below:

Ether 3:1 And it came to pass that the brother of Jared, (now the number of the vessels which had been prepared was eight) went forth unto the mount, which they called the mount Shelem, because of its exceeding height, and did molten out of a rock sixteen small stones; and they were white and clear, even as transparent glass; and he did carry them in his hands upon the top of the mount, and cried again unto the Lord, saying:

My first question has to do with the manner of producing these sixteen small stones. The stones are described as being "white and clear, even as transparent glass." Are the stones both "white and clear" or is "white" here being used as a synonym for "clear"? But more importantly, it seems strange to me that clear stones would be "molten out of a rock." It sounds as if heat were used in the process. How does somebody apply heat to a rock and come up with clear stones? Perhaps there are some smelters or geologists on the board who could address this question.

A related question would involve the comparison with transparent glass. It appears the stones were not transparent glass, but looked like transparent glass. How does the author know about transparent glass in the first place in order to make the comparison? Was the comparison to "transparent glass" made by the original author or by Moroni or by Joseph Smith?

Another question I have relates to the name of the mountain, which is described as being called "Shelem" specifically "because of its exceeding height." We would therefore expect the name to have something to do with the height of the mountain. Nibley offers that "Shelem" is related to the Hebrew "Shalom" which means the peace or safety provided by a high mountain retreat. I would be interested in knowing if that is correct. But that sort of begs the question of why any Hebrew cognate should be expected in the Jaredite language, which appears to be singular to the Jaredites themselves, their language not being confounded by God at the time of Babel.

Any thoughts?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[jwhitlock]

My first question has to do with the manner of producing these sixteen small stones. The stones are described as being "white and clear, even as transparent glass." Are the stones both "white and clear" or is "white" here being used as a synonym for "clear"? But more importantly, it seems strange to me that clear stones would be "molten out of a rock." It sounds as if heat were used in the process. How does somebody apply heat to a rock and come up with clear stones? Perhaps there are some smelters or geologists on the board who could address this question.

A related question would involve the comparison with transparent glass. It appears the stones were not transparent glass, but looked like transparent glass. How does the author know about transparent glass in the first place in order to make the comparison? Was the comparison to "transparent glass" made by the original author or by Moroni or by Joseph Smith?

Glass is produced by heat from silicon rock (sand, actually). Glass can also occur naturally (obsidian being the most common form) and the manufacture of glass was known at least as early as the Phoenicians.

My guess is that the stones were, in actuality, chunks of glass. It's not improbable that the brother of Jared was at least somewhat familiar with the rudiments of how glass was formed, given the civilization he came from, which built the Tower.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Brant Gardner is always interesting imo:

Ether 3:1

1 And it came to pass that the brother of Jared, (now the number of the vessels which had been prepared was eight) went forth unto the mount, which they called the mount Shelem, because of its exceeding height, and did molten out of a rock sixteen small stones; and they were white and clear, even as transparent glass; and he did carry them in his hands upon the top of the mount, and cried again unto the Lord, saying:

Commentary: When the brother of Jared comes back to the Lord, he does so with a possible solution. He has, in some way, created sixteen small stones that are “white and clear, even as transparent glass.” We do not know what the brother of Jared created. We do know that there is a connotative distinction between the stones and glass. It is probably important to note that they are stones, and that they are only as transparent glass. In fact, it is highly likely that the term “transparent glass” is used here because of the presence of that phrase in Revelation 21:21. That reference is to the heavenly city of Jerusalem:

Revelation 21:21

21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

Note that in revelation we have streets of gold “as it were transparent glass.” Joseph certainly understood the eschatological transformation of the world, and he had already translated Mormon:

Mormon 9:2

2 Behold, will ye believe in the day of your visitation—behold, when the Lord shall come, yea, even that great day when the earth shall be rolled together as a scroll, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, yea, in that great day when ye shall be brought to stand before the Lamb of God—then will ye say that there is no God?

It would appear that the sixteen stones are highly symbolic in both their molten nature as well as their symbolic transparency like glass. Whatever they were, they were more than simply natural stones as is clear when the rest of the story is told.

Cultural: When the brother of Jared has a solution to take to the Lord, he does it by climbing a very high mountain, which they called Shelem. In so doing, he is foreshadowing Moses who will go up in the mountain to speak to the Lord. In the days before constructed temples, the ancients used mountains as a natural temple. Remember that Jared and his brother had come from a land where the Tower of Babel was being built so that its top could reach the heavens. Ancient man was hardly stupid. They knew that they could not build a building so high that it physically touched the realm of God, but they certainly believed that by being on an elevated location they were closer to God, both physically and spiritually. It is therefore no surprise that the brother of Jared so seek out a mountain of “exceeding height” as he attempted to bring a particular problem before the Lord. He was going up to his natural temple.

Linguistic: Nibley says of Shelem:

“Then there's the story of the brother of Jared. This is a very important point in it. Remember, he said he talked with the Lord on an exceedingly high mountain. It was called Shelem because of its exceeding height. The original word of Shelem, Shalom, means "peace," but it originally meant "safe" (safety, security) because it was a high place. The Shelem was a high place. It's still the word for ladder: silma, selma, a sullam in Arabic. It's a very high elevation.” (Hugh Nibley, Ancient Documents and the Pearl of Great Price, edited by Robert Smith and Robert Smythe [n.p., n.d.], [p.5].)

(the commentary has more than this, as well)

[Garden Girl]

Someone correct me if I'm mistaken, but don't diamonds come from dark rock similar to coal?

GG

[ttribe]

Someone correct me if I'm mistaken, but don't diamonds come from dark rock similar to coal?

GG

Yes, but given the amount of pressure and heat necessary to make diamonds from carbon, he'd had to have done some SERIOUS digging to find 16 diamonds! Plus, he would have been required to give them to his wife...not use them for "light" in the boats!

[JAHS]

I have a few more questions regarding the Book of Ether, specifically the manner in which the brother of Jared manufactured sixteen stones, as related in the verse below:

My first question has to do with the manner of producing these sixteen small stones. The stones are described as being "white and clear, even as transparent glass." Are the stones both "white and clear" or is "white" here being used as a synonym for "clear"? But more importantly, it seems strange to me that clear stones would be "molten out of a rock." It sounds as if heat were used in the process. How does somebody apply heat to a rock and come up with clear stones? Perhaps there are some smelters or geologists on the board who could address this question.

A related question would involve the comparison with transparent glass. It appears the stones were not transparent glass, but looked like transparent glass. How does the author know about transparent glass in the first place in order to make the comparison? Was the comparison to "transparent glass" made by the original author or by Moroni or by Joseph Smith?

Another question I have relates to the name of the mountain, which is described as being called "Shelem" specifically "because of its exceeding height." We would therefore expect the name to have something to do with the height of the mountain. Nibley offers that "Shelem" is related to the Hebrew "Shalom" which means the peace or safety provided by a high mountain retreat. I would be interested in knowing if that is correct. But that sort of begs the question of why any Hebrew cognate should be expected in the Jaredite language, which appears to be singular to the Jaredites themselves, their language not being confounded by God at the time of Babel.

Any thoughts?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

In reference to the word "white". It need not be refering to the color of the stones.

Consider the following passages from the biblical book of Daniel:

"And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed (Daniel 11:35).

"Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand (Daniel 12:10).

So perhaps "white" can mean that the stones were of a pure substance uncontaminated with other elements.

[Koneko]

I wonder if it isn't an Urim and Thummim:

Revelations 2: 17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

D&C 130

10 Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known;

11 And a white stone is given to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, whereon is a new name written, which no man knoweth save he that receiveth it. The new name is the key word.

[cjcampbell]

Gosh, I was not there (though my kids think I am old enough), so I don't know. But I do know this: having Indiana Jones recover the stones of the Jaredites would be a great idea for a movie!

[JDave]

I like that when he presents them to the Lord he doesn't quite know what to say.

"Ummm, Lord, here are some, uh, things I made...."

The whole passage is actually quite inspiring.

[cdowis]

There is a story in one of the old historical books (don't have the reference with me, but I posted this previously). During Colonial times, a fire pit was placed in the center of the village for light. But one village had a small platform in the center where they placed a stone which lit the village.

The colonists were very interested in trying to get the stone, but the daughter of the village chief threw the stone into the river rather than give it up.

Hmmmm....

[Obiwan]

Another Question About The Book Of Ether, How do you molten clear stones from a rock?

Just saw a brief commercial of an ancient technique of pouring some type of liquid onto rock, and the rock would break apart.

Sure, not fire related, but, maybe a type of "molting"?

[talisyn]

Yes, but given the amount of pressure and heat necessary to make diamonds from carbon, he'd had to have done some SERIOUS digging to find 16 diamonds! Plus, he would have been required to give them to his wife...not use them for "light" in the boats!

I don't remember reading about what happened to them AFTER the voyage across the sea....

[ttribe]

I don't remember reading about what happened to them AFTER the voyage across the sea....

You may have a point....

[Lightbearer]

Gosh, I was not there (though my kids think I am old enough), so I don't know. But I do know this: having Indiana Jones recover the stones of the Jaredites would be a great idea for a movie!

Hey where is Mola Ram when you need him?

[Sargon]

Putting on my geologist hat...

Actually, I really am a geologist (in training).

If you've ever seen a chunk of quartz (and I have seen lots) it can be very appropriately described as both white and clear. Minerals (like quartz) form when tiny crystals have time to form and link up to each other. In the case of glass, the molten (no crystals) composition cools too quickly for crystals to have time to form. Glass is a solid with no crystals and no systematic arrangement of ions.

I don't know tons about smelting, but if the brother of Jared got ahold of some quartz - which could just be regular old beach sand - and heated it up enough to melt it, then cooled it quickly it would certainly form "glass".

As jwhitlock said, quartz-sand is almost pure silicon. Minerals that are rich in silicon melt under lower temperatures than other minerals, and cool quicker too.

James

[DispensatorMysteriorum]

Isn't glass technically a liquid?

--------------------------------

Edit: Nevermind. It apparently depends on who you ask.

[talisyn]

Isn't glass technically a liquid?

--------------------------------

Edit: Nevermind. It apparently depends on who you ask.

technically everything is liquid isn't it? As in everything has atoms that are always moving, just some of them veeeeeerrrrrrrrrrry sloooooooooooowlllllly.

I still like the idea of diamonds or quartz. Those are found often in or surrounded by other rocks, and must be seperated. I have always been curious about the molten part as well. Did the ancients have a different meaning for the word?

[Sargon]

technically everything is liquid isn't it? As in everything has atoms that are always moving, just some of them veeeeeerrrrrrrrrrry sloooooooooooowlllllly.

I still like the idea of diamonds or quartz. Those are found often in or surrounded by other rocks, and must be seperated. I have always been curious about the molten part as well. Did the ancients have a different meaning for the word?

I highly doubt it was diamond. Surely the brother of Jared knew what diamonds are (everyone does) and because it is such a valuable commodity he surely would have mentioned that detail in the account. Besides, one would be crazy to melt diamonds (im not even sure if that would have been possible).

There would really be no use to melt a diamond anyway, since it would already be "white and clear."

[Sevenbak]

I have a few more questions regarding the Book of Ether, specifically the manner in which the brother of Jared manufactured sixteen stones, as related in the verse below:

My first question has to do with the manner of producing these sixteen small stones. The stones are described as being "white and clear, even as transparent glass." Are the stones both "white and clear" or is "white" here being used as a synonym for "clear"? But more importantly, it seems strange to me that clear stones would be "molten out of a rock." It sounds as if heat were used in the process. How does somebody apply heat to a rock and come up with clear stones? Perhaps there are some smelters or geologists on the board who could address this question.

A related question would involve the comparison with transparent glass. It appears the stones were not transparent glass, but looked like transparent glass. How does the author know about transparent glass in the first place in order to make the comparison? Was the comparison to "transparent glass" made by the original author or by Moroni or by Joseph Smith?

Another question I have relates to the name of the mountain, which is described as being called "Shelem" specifically "because of its exceeding height." We would therefore expect the name to have something to do with the height of the mountain. Nibley offers that "Shelem" is related to the Hebrew "Shalom" which means the peace or safety provided by a high mountain retreat. I would be interested in knowing if that is correct. But that sort of begs the question of why any Hebrew cognate should be expected in the Jaredite language, which appears to be singular to the Jaredites themselves, their language not being confounded by God at the time of Babel.

Any thoughts?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Well, there is are many elements in the earth that will be like unto the 16 small stones were when the earth is cleansed by fire the final time. I imagine if the Lord can do it, he can inspire Mohonri to do it.

Doctrine and Covenants 130:9

This earth, in its sanctified and immortal state, will be made like unto crystal and will be a Urim and Thummim to the inhabitants who dwell thereon, whereby all things pertaining to an inferior kingdom, or all kingdoms of a lower order, will be manifest to those who dwell on it; and this earth will be Christâ??s.

[consiglieri]

I like that when he presents them to the Lord he doesn't quite know what to say.

"Ummm, Lord, here are some, uh, things I made...."

The whole passage is actually quite inspiring.

I also like how the brother of Jared goes to all that work to come up with these 16-stones, and after the whole deal is over and they are made to shine, the Lord produces two similar stones He had all the time and said, "By the way, you can have these, too!"

Ether 3:23 And behold, these two stones will I give unto thee, and ye shall seal them up also with the things which ye shall write.

Thanks, everybody, for your great comments. I have learned a lot!

Did anybody want to address the issue of Shelem v. Shalom?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[jkfrost]

Crystallization - hardening of melted rock into a solid, sometimes for making very fine glass, rock crystal is employed

My question would be how did these rocks produce light for the ships and what kind of battery did they use?

I hate batteries because they wear out, I want a lantern like the kind they had.

[Whiskeypete]

Note that in revelation we have streets of gold â??as it were transparent glass.â? Joseph certainly understood the eschatological transformation of the world, and he had already translated Mormon:

I remember somewhere hearing that you can alter the molecular structure of Aluminum to make it transparent. I don't see how gold would be any more difficult.

[Flyonthewall]

I remember somewhere hearing that you can alter the molecular structure of Aluminum to make it transparent. I don't see how gold would be any more difficult.

Transparent aluminum...wasn't its construction method what Scottie traded for material to construct the containers for the whales?

[Scottie]

Transparent aluminum...wasn't its construction method what Scottie traded for material to construct the containers for the whales?

I did what for the what now????

[Mighty Curelom]

A related question would involve the comparison with transparent glass. It appears the stones were not transparent glass, but looked like transparent glass. How does the author know about transparent glass in the first place in order to make the comparison? Was the comparison to "transparent glass" made by the original author or by Moroni or by Joseph Smith?

I think we all know the answer to that one: whatever it takes to retain the pretense of ancient authorship.

It's funny: apologists of varying degrees of skill compile lists of supposed parallels and "things Joseph couldn't have possibly known," but it only takes a single anachronism to disprove the whole thing. If you theorize that all swans are white, a thousand white swans aren't as important as the single black swan that disproves your theory. Critics have pointed out dozens of black swans with respect to Mormonism, and the BoM in particular. But here you've got one of the most simple and glaring black swans one could ask for--it's staring you right in the face. But it's unceremoniously brushed aside with barely a passing comment. After all, there's always the deus ex machina of the translation process--that is, "Joseph did it."