Is Another Great Apostasy Possible

[cinepro]

Apostasies, like beauty, are only in the eyes of their beholders. Instead of asking whether or not such an apostasy is "possible", you should ask what it would look like were it to occur? What would have to happen for LDS members to admit their Church was in apostasy? How could an outside observer tell if the LDS Church were in apostasy?

But as far as I can tell, LDS usually understand "The Great Apostacy" as being a problem of logistics. There were good and righteous people in the early Church, but they weren't connected, and they weren't able to replenish the ranks of the Apostles faster than the enemies of the Church could kill them.

And of course, there had to be two different Churches on the Earth because the Old World church didn't know about the New World church.

Modern communication technologies make it almost impossible to fracture the Church to such a degree, so there will always be some semblance of organized authority in the LDS Church. Since the actual size of the Church isn't a relevant factor for determining its validity, it would be possible for the Church to shrink down to just a few hundred or thousand members without anyone having to admit another "Great Apostasy" had occurred.

[SilverKnight]

You should ask what it would look like were it to occur?

Hundreds of Josephite churches all interpreting the Book of Mormon differently, with varying degrees of orthodoxy, each claiming to have the correct version of what Joseph Smith originally taught.

What would have to happen for LDS members to admit their Church was in apostasy?

They would never admit it.

However some cynical former and unbelieving members could point out symptoms from the sidelines.

Er, wait a tic.

How could an outside observer tell if the LDS Church were in apostasy?

See first response.

[Mudcat]

Apostasies, like beauty, are only in the eyes of their beholders. Instead of asking whether or not such an apostasy is "possible", you should ask what it would look like were it to occur? What would have to happen for LDS members to admit their Church was in apostasy? How could an outside observer tell if the LDS Church were in apostasy?

Hi Cinepro,

Thanks for your thoughts on the matter. I don't what such an apostasy would look like. I suppose it would be difficult to gauge. From my perspective, it might be impossible to gauge. It seems there are many non-LDS who feel the Great Apostasy, has not occurred even yet. But if we were to assume that such an apostasy has occurred, it occurred unannounced to many, if not all, at the time it seemed to be occurring.

If we were to use the proposed first as some sort of map as to what such another would look like, perhaps it would be imperceptible to the Church at large. Just a thought.

As far as what it might look like to an outsider, I could speculate and say shifts in doctrine, maybe changes in leadership structure, additions to or deletions of Scriptures, to think of a few.

But as far as I can tell, LDS usually understand "The Great Apostacy" as being a problem of logistics. There were good and righteous people in the early Church, but they weren't connected, and they weren't able to replenish the ranks of the Apostles faster than the enemies of the Church could kill them.

I find this concept a little more palatable than God somehow ceasing to raise up apostles.

And of course, there had to be two different Churches on the Earth because the Old World church didn't know about the New World church.

Modern communication technologies make it almost impossible to fracture the Church to such a degree, so there will always be some semblance of organized authority in the LDS Church. Since the actual size of the Church isn't a relevant factor for determining its validity, it would be possible for the Church to shrink down to just a few hundred or thousand members without anyone having to admit another "Great Apostasy" had occurred.

I would agree that size would be irrelevant also. Urroner also posed that communication tech. would make it difficult as well. It seems that the if such an apostasy were to occur, it would have to occur in the First Presidency and the Quorum. However, were such an apostasy to occur, would the general rank and file be aware of such a thing?

I will try to get back and respond to the other posts tonight if I can.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

[cinepro]

Hundreds of Josephite churches all interpreting the Book of Mormon differently, with varying degrees of orthodoxy, each claiming to have the correct version of what Joseph Smith originally taught.

Why hundreds? Why not just 54? Or 26? Or 17? It's only been 178 years, so you should probably also give a timeline to how many splinter-churches would be expected for an apostasy in any given time period.

[Cold Steel]

Apostasy isn't so much in the eye of the beholder, but in the eye of God.

When we speak of the GREAT Apostasy, we refer to a complete falling away from the word of God. Other apostasies are inevitable, of course, and every time the church takes a strong moral position, we lose members; however, we continue adding to our numbers as well.

I've had ministers point out the apostasies from the LDS church and point out, with a certain amount of glee, that, you see, the Restoration of the Gospel really didn't do a whole lot of good. But it's only in their eyes that this is true. The sheep know the voice of the Shepard and the Shepherd loves the sheep. The Lord above and the devils beneath all know which church is the Shepherd's and they both know and recognize the priesthood.

We may lose many members in the months and years ahead, but the church will never perish again, nor will another people be raised up. There will thus never have to be a re-restoration of priesthood keys.

[jkfrost]

Will not happen - it is not in the cards so to speak:

Our missionaries are going forth to different nations, and in

Germany, Palestine, New Holland, Australia, the East Indies, and other

places, the Standard of Truth has been erected; no unhallowed hand can

stop the work from progressing; persecutions may rage, mobs may combine,

armies may assemble, calumny may defame, but the truth of God will go

forth boldly, nobly, and independent, till it has penetrated every

continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every

ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished, and the Great Jehovah

shall say the work is done. THE WENTWORTH LETTER.

Dan 2

34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet

that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.

35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold,

broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors;

and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them:

and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

36 This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.

44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom,

which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people,

but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands,

and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold;

the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter:

and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

46 Then the king Nebuchadnezzar fell upon his face, and worshipped Daniel,

and commanded that they should offer an oblation and sweet odours unto him.

47 The king answered unto Daniel, and said, Of a truth it is, that your God is a God of gods,

and a Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets, seeing thou couldest reveal this secret.

[rameumptom]

There are two portions to apostasy: the rebellion of the people and the loss of priesthood authority from the earth.

In the Bible and Book of Mormon, we find that most previous apostasies meant that either the gospel was taken from people in some way, or the people were destroyed. In the Great Apostasy, much of the priesthood authority was lost and required restoration.

The Restoration of the gospel came in order to prepare the way for the Second Coming. Daniel prophecies that a stone would be cut out of a mountain without hands, which would roll forth until it became a great mountain itself. This new kingdom would be present for the return of the Ancient of Days. We believe that the authority will not be lost from earth again.

We do, however, believe that many will apostasize from the truth. As we approach the last days, a great schism will divide the righteous and wicked. No longer will people be able to sit on the fence, but will be forced to choose Zion or Babylon. Those members who choose Babylon's ways will in effect be apostates. And there will be many of them. Many will side with gay rights issues. Others will enjoy the fruits of a worldly lifestyle, and will walk away from baptismal covenants so they can continue to live in sin.

As it is, of the 13 million members, over half are less active. Of the active ones, perhaps 1/2 of them pay any tithing at all. And of them, only a fraction hold temple recommends. Even fewer regularly attend.

The pull from these two lifestyles/choices will become stronger and stronger. D&C 45 tells us that those who dwell among the wicked who will not lift up the sword to fight "must needs flee to Zion for safety." That doesn't sound like a person can sit on a fence, does it?

So there will be a great apostasy, inasmuch as many will walk or run away from their gospel covenants.

[jkfrost]

There are two portions to apostasy: the rebellion of the people and the loss of priesthood authority from the earth.

In the Bible and Book of Mormon, we find that most previous apostasies meant that either the gospel was taken from people in some way, or the people were destroyed. In the Great Apostasy, much of the priesthood authority was lost and required restoration.

The Restoration of the gospel came in order to prepare the way for the Second Coming. Daniel prophecies that a stone would be cut out of a mountain without hands, which would roll forth until it became a great mountain itself. This new kingdom would be present for the return of the Ancient of Days. We believe that the authority will not be lost from earth again.

We do, however, believe that many will apostasize from the truth. As we approach the last days, a great schism will divide the righteous and wicked. No longer will people be able to sit on the fence, but will be forced to choose Zion or Babylon. Those members who choose Babylon's ways will in effect be apostates. And there will be many of them. Many will side with gay rights issues. Others will enjoy the fruits of a worldly lifestyle, and will walk away from baptismal covenants so they can continue to live in sin.

As it is, of the 13 million members, over half are less active. Of the active ones, perhaps 1/2 of them pay any tithing at all. And of them, only a fraction hold temple recommends. Even fewer regularly attend.

The pull from these two lifestyles/choices will become stronger and stronger. D&C 45 tells us that those who dwell among the wicked who will not lift up the sword to fight "must needs flee to Zion for safety." That doesn't sound like a person can sit on a fence, does it?

So there will be a great apostasy, inasmuch as many will walk or run away from their gospel covenants.

You make some good points - no total apostasy only a weeding out - the Kingdom will not fail however in the Latter days.

2 Nephi 30:[8] And it shall come to pass that the Lord God shall commence his work among all nations,

kindreds, tongues, and people, to bring about the restoration of his people upon the earth.

[9] And with righteousness shall the Lord God judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth.

And he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth; and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

[10] For the time speedily cometh that the Lord God shall cause a great division among the people,

and the wicked will he destroy; and he will spare his people, yea, even if it so be that he must destroy the wicked by fire.

[11] And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

[12] And then shall the wolf dwell with the lamb; and the leopard shall lie down with the kid, and the calf,

and the young lion, and the fatling, together; and a little child shall lead them.

[zerinus]

I guess I am thinking, that well you have these folks who believe in the "Restored" Church.

Then you have these folks that still believe the Church is what it always has been.

If the Church has been restored, then what is there to prevent it from falling into the same shape it was in before it was restored?

Mudcat

Anijen gave you the right reply; but you seem to have ignored him. It will not fall away because it has been prophesied that it won't. Here is Daniel's prophecy concerining that kingdom:

Daniel 2

:

44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall

never be destroyed

:

and the kingdom shall

not be left to other people

,

but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and

it shall stand for ever

.

45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and

the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure

.

zerinus

[bluebell]

I am not trying to be contrary. I just don't see the points you have made as conclusive.

It's definitely not conclusive Mudcat, but when we look at all the different beliefs that come from the bible alone, there's really hardly anything in there that can stand competely on its own and be 'conclusive' to everyone.

I mean, obviously i don't see verses saying that God's word will last forever as being conclusive of a lack of a great apostasy-i find such an interpretation a bit of a stretch honestly-but i know a lot of people that agree.

So to me, trying to pin down conclusive evidence of any belief in the bible is a longshot.

And of course, i wasn't even speaking about whether the bible conclusively supported my beliefs-i was simply showing that my beliefs were not as contradictive as you believe they are because there are other biblical examples that show God behaving in similar ways-allowing something to happen at one time but keeping it from happening at a different time.

[Lightbearer]

I've been thinking about this concept of a restoration lately.

If we assume that a 'Great Apostasy' occurred and that something happened in the early church where humanity 'broke' things. At least in regards to the Church. Then it would make sense, that a loving God, would do his best to make sure things were 'mended'.

The premise behind the restoration seems to be that man has the power â??free will/agencyâ? to damage the Church to the point that it needs to be mended.

I would like to know what LDS think.

Can their be another â??Great Apostasyâ??

If you think yes or no, then why or why not, respectively?

Respectfully,

Mudcat

It was not "humanity" that broke things that brought on the great apostasy. It was a direct effort of Lucifer to destroy the church that caused her to be "driven into the wilderness" and from among men. See the following:

(Revelation 12:1-17) "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

The woman represents the church and the man child the Kingdom of God and His Christ. The rebellion that started in Heaven with Lucifer and one third of the hosts of heaven is continued here on earth, the Church is driven into the wilderness of apostasy by Satan and men are left in darkness for almost two millennia. But although this was foretold and known, it was also foretold and known that there would be a restitution of all things spoken of by all the prophets since the world began. In fact this eternal gospel was to return to earth by angelic messengers:

(Revelation 14:6-13) "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them."

The beginning of the end of Babylon was when the Gospel was restored in the last days for the last time. While some may be overcome and apostatize, the Church as a whole will not. This is the last time the Lord will gather His elect from the four quarters of the earth and that gathering will include the righteous dead who hear the Gospel in the world of spirits and who have the ordinances preformed here by proxy and who live according to God in the spirit. No the Gospel of Jesus Christ will not fail, this generation will prepare the world to receive their Lord and Savior, the King of Heaven, the rightful heir. Consider the following interpretation of the parable of the wheat and the tares:

(D&C 86:1-11) "VERILY, thus saith the Lord unto you my servants, concerning the parable of the wheat and of the tares: Behold, verily I say, the field was the world, and the apostles were the sowers of the seed; And after they have fallen asleep the great persecutor of the church, the apostate, the whore, even Babylon, that maketh all nations to drink of her cup, in whose hearts the enemy, even Satan, sitteth to reignâ??behold he soweth the tares; wherefore, the tares choke the wheat and drive the church into the wilderness. But behold, in the last days, even now while the Lord is beginning to bring forth the word, and the blade is springing up and is yet tenderâ?? Behold, verily I say unto you, the angels are crying unto the Lord day and night, who are ready and waiting to be sent forth to reap down the fields; But the Lord saith unto them, pluck not up the tares while the blade is yet tender (for verily your faith is weak), lest you destroy the wheat also. Therefore, let the wheat and the tares grow together until the harvest is fully ripe; then ye shall first gather out the wheat from among the tares, and after the gathering of the wheat, behold and lo, the tares are bound in bundles, and the field remaineth to be burned. Therefore, thus saith the Lord unto you, with whom the priesthood hath continued through the lineage of your fathersâ?? For ye are lawful heirs, according to the flesh, and have been hid from the world with Christ in Godâ?? Therefore your life and the priesthood have remained, and must needs remain through you and your lineage until the restoration of all things spoken by the mouths of all the holy prophets since the world began. Therefore, blessed are ye if ye continue in my goodness, a light unto the Gentiles, and through this priesthood, a savior unto my people Israel. The Lord hath said it. Amen."

So no I do not believe any second apostasy in the sense of a general total apostasy is going to ever happen again. Individuals may apostatize but the Church will stand along with those who "they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."

[Bee Eff]

It was not "humanity" that broke things that brought on the great apostasy. It was a direct effort of Lucifer to destroy the church that caused her to be "driven into the wilderness" and from among men.

Personally, I don't believe that Satan has the power to act among us. Satan does not have man unless man allows Satan's arguments a hold. Satan has no impact on Earth, it is possible for him to have impact in our thinking, if we allow such. Humanity is the only actual threat to the Gospel. Satan cannot defeat the Gospel. We as men can in fact allow Satan to win within each of us, and then through man's action Satan's purposes can come to fruition. Satan is often a scapegoat. Satan is influential, but it is man that does the deed, not Satan.

[William the Conqueror]

I think it actually makes sense.

It's all about His will and His purposes. The God that will hide from those who seek Him one day, and yet reveal Himself to those who seek Him the next, is a God who could logically allow evil to overcome His church for a time and yet promise, after it is restored, that evil will never overcome it again.

Where in the Bible (not D & C) does He say evil will never overcome it again? Now Jesus did say to Peter that the gates of Hell would not prevail against it, but some LDS interpret that substantially different than I do. Of course another way possibly that LDS could see it is that that verse was added by a corrupt scribe and was never in the original.

"The kings heart is like channels of water in the hands of the Lord. He turns it whichever way He wills." Proverbs

[Mudcat]

What was the cause of the "Great Apostasy" and what was it? Though it's a little long, here is a nice article about three myths that we LDSers believe about the Apostasy and why we believe them - Introduction: What Went Wrong for the Early Christians?. It's an introduction to the book Early Christians in Disarray: Contemporary LDS Perspectives on the Christian Apostasy by Noel B. Reynolds

One quote from the book:

Too many Mormons don't understand the Apostasy because of the myths that have been inherited and taught as truth and too many non-LDS Christians believe that we believe that the Apostasy was all about losing all truth and righteousness within the Church, which is also a myth propagated by those against the Church.

I don't believe that a "Great Apostasy" will happen again because the differences between the civilization of back then and now. Back then, communication between the apostles and the Church was very difficult. If a problem occurred in Spain, it would take forever for Jerusalem to find out about it and by the time a response could come would be years. By the late first century, dire wolves had crept into the Church. Even that early, all sorts of apostate doctrine was being taught in many areas and the apostles were not able to react to them fast enough and eventually the apostles all died and God had stopped replacing them with new apostles.

I realize that man Christians have a problem with this because, in their POV, all those who lived during that time were bound for Hell, but within the Church, this isn't a problem in the long run because of the plan of salvation, that one is not damned to Hell if one dies without accepting Christ in this life.

Today, the problem of the lack of communication is not as large a problem as back in the first century, but the problem can still raise its ugly head. Changes happened in Europe during WWII because of a lack of communication, but when the communication was restored, these problems were fixed.

Another thing, after the restoration, the Church basically stayed in a group for a long time. It really wasn't until the 1950s and 1960s, did the Church start to spread outside of Utah, while after the death of Christ, the apostles sent missionaries to many different parts of the world and the Church was spread out all over the place within a relatively short period of time. I think that this was important because if they had stayed in Jerusalem or that area, when Titus conquered Jerusalem in the 8th decade of the first century, I feel that the Church would have been destroyed.

Urroner,

Thanks for the link to the introduction. I confess I skimmed it, but I think I get the just.

At least from Reynolds perspective, it seems that the GA is the product of covenants broken, upon covenants broker to God. Rather than placing blame upon the persecutions, the RCC or Helenization he proffers the alternative, that it occurred because of failures within the Church.

If a GA has occurred, I certainly wouldn't be inclined to disagree.

You make a good point about communication lines being better today than they were at that time, which in many ways could help in ways.

It seems for the most part, LDS believe that the authority of the leadership of the CoJCoLDS is "apostasy proof", do you agree?

Again, thanks for your thoughts.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

edit add

The truth that the Earth orbits the Sun endured no matter what was taught by men here on Earth.

But if a tree falls in the woods and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?

[Mudcat]

The Universal Apostasy did not do anything to the word of God and therefore the scriptures are correct. What the UA did was prevent others from hearing the word of God (or a correct version of it) The notion that there wasn't a falling away is contraBiblical....

BC,

Emphasis mine. If the UA didn't do anything in regards to Scripture... I hope I am understanding you clearly here. Then where the plain and precious things that were restored totally relative to leadership, ordinance and the priesthood?

Also, and as a side note. I have noticed for a bit now, that you refer to the Shepard of Hermas from time to time.

Do you think the text should have been canonized?

Respectfully,

Mudcat

[Mudcat]

The Great Apostasy is still raging today.

But to answer your question, no, not an entire apostasy. Our scriptures speak of the keys of authority (or the Kingdom) being restored for the "last time." Daniel, in his vision of the future, sees that the Lord would set up a kingdom that would "never be destroyed." Many Christians believe this kingdom was set up in the days of Christ, but in Daniel's vision, it would be set up in the days of "the kings" following the Roman Empire. It would be in the days of the toes, part iron, part clay, and it would not be left to "other men," but would be guided by God. It also would roll forth until it filled the entire Earth. (See Daniel 2.)

The gospel would be preached to the world before the second coming of Christ, then the end would come. The Millennium would bring in world peace that would last for almost 1,000 years. At the last part of the Millennium, Satan and his hosts would be released to form a final assault on God and His Hosts, and would suffer everlasting defeat.

Early in church history, the Lord threatened to raise up another people if they failed to live up to His commandments; however, that was not necessary. Still, because of our unwillingness to be faithful to the Lord's will in all things, and because of the gentiles' rejection of the gospel, we were forced into the western regions so that we would escape the great war that was to come in judgment against the gentiles. That war was courtesy of Mr. Lincoln, and it ravaged the very people who had so persecuted the saints.

At least that's our take.

Hey CS,

I took the liberty to reread Daniel 2. I suppose this is what Anijen was referencing as well.

The prophecy was a little bit ambiguous. I suppose if I was creatively thinking, I might be able to come up with a plausible alternate translation to the text.

I understand this is the LDS interpretation of it though.

Do you know where this interpretation is "laid out"?

Respects,

Mudcat

[Mudcat]

Hi Mud,

If we are operating under the assumption that mormonism is indeed the Gospel of Jesus Christ restored then I think no - a large part of LDS scripture assures "this is it". The final dispensation. The true gospel restored - never to be lost again.

Which begs two questions I can think of:

1. Do we have the power, through wickedness or corruption, to splinter the LDS church into apostasy? The succession crisis between the pro and anti poligamy factions was the closest thing to that.

2. If God allowed the original gospel to disintegrate into a 2000 year apostasy, why are we so sure he won't let it happen again? Are the 2008 saints that much more important than the 400 AD saints?

Hey SK,

Emphasis mine.

Your point 2 does a good job of articulating my thoughts on the matter. Seems others have related the authority of the CoJCoLDS as something that is immutable. Do you believe that, or is it possible that apostasy could occur on a leadership level?

Your Homie,

Mud

[Mudcat]

Hi Noah,

Thanks for the reply. As I believe I have stated before, I appreciate the thoughtfulness in which you express yourself. You are, at least IMO, a welcome new comer here.

A distinction needs to be made here. There really are two kinds of apostasy. In one case, there is an apostasy of the Church from the gospel (what happened to the early Christian Church). In another, there is an apostasy of the members from the Church.

The former is guaranteed not to occur again, as has been stated above. The latter is almost guaranteed to occur; not only that, but I believe we have already been crippled by a massive, although by-no-means total, apostasy.

I don't want to derail my own thread, but I am curious what you think some of the causes and evidences of this apostasy of membership are.

I'm a card-carrying Mormon, ethnically, culturally, and religiously speaking. But you might also call me a Smithite, a Brighamite, a Taylorite, and perhaps even a Nibleyite. Brigham certainly warned us about what could happen to us, and Nibley was there to warn us when it had happened.

I'm not one to seek after trials, but I believe persecution is ultimately going to find us. We've had it easy. Sure there are those who use unkind words against us, but such is easy enough to ignore. We've become proud, individualistic, haughty, and deeply assimilated into Babylonian culture. And we're not popular; the world does not like us.

And you say, "Of course they don't, nor do we expect them to." But sometimes, sometimes, people simply don't like you because they think you're an arrogant, holier-than-thou jerk. So ask yourself, why do your enemies dislike you?

That was quite an honest response. I appreciate your candor.

It would say it's time to get our heads out of the sand. And for the record, I don't think I'm any better than you; more than anything, more than being righteous, I wish I was more faithful, more repentant--because that's what God really wants. Nevertheless, we're (probably) not going to get our heads out of the sand. The Lord will have to compel us; he will use our enemies to afflict us. It's happening already...and before you know it, it will be happening to us seventy-times-seven, and so forth.

Emphasis mine, I agree with you 100% and would like to say right back at you. Well said.

Many of us will fall away, but many of us will grow stronger, more humble. I worry about myself; I worry about the people I go to Church with. We need to remember that Zion belongs to anyone who will bow their heads and submit themselves to God. We have been called to gather Israel, not because we are righteous, as Brigham says, but because we are ambitious, conquerers by nature, saved only by the grace of the gospel and Jesus Christ. That means, more than anything, we need to remember humility. There are ten lost tribes out there; the Church is not the Church of the Ephraimites only.

Not only do I believe an apostasy could occur; I believe we're in the process of one. That said, I also believe in happy endings, and I believe many us will draw nearer to God and each other, through humility, in the face of crushing adversity.

I believe in happy endings too. Sometimes bad things happen before the end and seems you feel the Church isn't out of the woods, but a least on its way out of the woods.

I don't know that I can agree 100%, but I respect your thoughts.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

[urroner]

It seems for the most part, LDS believe that the authority of the leadership of the CoJCoLDS is "apostasy proof", do you agree?

You will never heard me going around with the mantra of "All is well is Zion." Anything is possible, but I believe with the strength of the organization and the ability to communicate more effectively and efficiently, the more "apostasy proof" it is.

[bluebell]

Where in the Bible (not D & C) does He say evil will never overcome it again?

No place that i'm aware of, but since i believe in more scripture than only the bible, that doesn't mean anything to me.

[Mudcat]

This leads to an assumption on my part that it was not allowed through a decision to allow such, but of a necessity to allow such. For Christ to be sacrificed, the Church needed to be set in a time that its survival was unlikely. If the time was such that the Son of God himself would be killed, why would it be expected that his followers would be capable of surviving that time?

Hey Bee Eff,

I am sure we will see another apostasy thread, in which I could issue a more formal rebuttal.

But for the moment, I am "suspending disbelief" on the matter

The rationale I believe for the delay of 1800 years until the restoration has a few aspects.

I believe that Most of the religious figures through those 1800 years were inspired of God, and either they did not hold the message clear and contaminated it with their own views or the people of the time contaminated it. Thus, there is not a true 1800 year gap between Christ and God speaking to man.

I believe that timing shows symbolism and parallel. Christ creates at the beginning, Christ at the meridian of time sacrificed, Christ at the end finalizing and bringing to a close. I believe that thus, Joseph Smith and the restoration occurred when it did due to the parallel aspect of the period of the Earth. Possibly paralleling Moses or Jacob's Joseph.

I believe that the timing of Joseph Smith and the restoration is such that a similar contamination is unlikely and possibly beyond probability of occurrence. Christianity and the early contaminants therein had diffused to the point that doubt in the original contaminants is rife, Christians in general cannot agree on the truth. Now, this does throw many Christians under the train as it were. Many cling to incorrect doctrines. This follows the pattern though. Many Jews, the pre-Christian Titled Church at the time of Christ, rejected the Gospel and Christ in favor of their incorrect and contaminated religion. Some will in fact grasp the truth, but many will hold stubbornly to their incorrect beliefs.

Thus, why there will not be another "great apostacy".

Beginning, Middle and End. I see your logic, but it is dependent upon us being at the end. In many ways I agree, but I want to throw this out there....

Scripture says the Christ will return when no one expects him to. I used to think that this meant he could arrive at anytime, unbidden. But I am thinking now, that the reason no one will expect him to arrive, is because no one believes he will arrive. In short, there is no one that expects him to return.

It seems to me that Christianity holds a common bond, in that we expect Christ to return. Perhaps we are not as near the end as we would hope.

Perhaps we must wait on a slow, tedious, self masochistic, of all that Christ stood for.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

[Mudcat]

Anijen gave you the right reply; but you seem to have ignored him. It will not fall away because it has been prophesied that it won't. Here is Daniel's prophecy concerining that kingdom:

Daniel 2

:

44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall

never be destroyed

:

and the kingdom shall

not be left to other people

,

but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and

it shall stand for ever

.

45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and

the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure

.

zerinus

Hi Zerinus,

No, I didn't ignore Anigen. He is my bud. There are a few LDS here I count as friends, and Anijen is on of them, and I am proud he is.

You make a lot of assumptions Zerinus.

I didn't know what reference he was giving in Daniel so I went on to read other posts.

After your declaration, I took the time to look and see that you didn't respond to a post I made on a thread you were the OP on.

Personally, I don't think you ignored me. I think you read it and chose to not to respond for some reason.

I get the impression I must've hacked you off in some way in the past. If so I am sorry.

Lets move onward,

Mudcat

[Zemah]

I've been thinking about this concept of a restoration lately.

If we assume that a 'Great Apostasy' occurred and that something happened in the early church where humanity 'broke' things. At least in regards to the Church. Then it would make sense, that a loving God, would do his best to make sure things were 'mended'.

The premise behind the restoration seems to be that man has the power â??free will/agencyâ? to damage the Church to the point that it needs to be mended.

I would like to know what LDS think.

Can their be another â??Great Apostasyâ??

If you think yes or no, then why or why not, respectively?

Respectfully,

Mudcat

No, not with more than one million priests in His latter-day Church.

Besides, we are not through the last apostasy. In spite of the Restoration many are living an active apostasy.

The end of the Apostasy will only come with Christ upon His return, when "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that He is the Christ".

Zemah

P.S. - Does any one know the actual number of Melchizedek priests in the LDS Church? I estimated two million out of the fourteen million saints and divided it by two since only 50% of our members are active.

[BCSpace]

The Universal Apostasy did not do anything to the word of God and therefore the scriptures are correct. What the UA did was prevent others from hearing the word of God (or a correct version of it) The notion that there wasn't a falling away is contraBiblical....

BC,

Emphasis mine. If the UA didn't do anything in regards to Scripture... I hope I am understanding you clearly here. Then where the plain and precious things that were restored totally relative to leadership, ordinance and the priesthood?

I would distinguish between the actual word of God (the "sound comming from His mouth") and the written word. The written word may or may not be perfect as the early Christians knew.

Also, and as a side note. I have noticed for a bit now, that you refer to the Shepard of Hermas from time to time.

Do you think the text should have been canonized?

I refer to it because many Christians at the time considered it canonical.

Davies, The Early Christian Church, 81; Fergusen, ed., Encyclopedia of Early Christianity, 421.

[BCSpace]

Where in the Bible (not D & C) does He say evil will never overcome it again?

Implicitly I would say as there is no indication of another falling away after the Restoration of all things.

Now Jesus did say to Peter that the gates of Hell would not prevail against it, but some LDS interpret that substantially different than I do. Of course another way possibly that LDS could see it is that that verse was added by a corrupt scribe and was never in the original.

An interesting take by one of Catholicism's own scholars.....

"although some writers have applied the idea of immortality to the survival of the church, it seems preferable to see it as a promise of triumph over evil." Michael M. Winter, former lecturer in Fundamental Theology at St. John's Seminary (Roman Catholic), Saint Peter and the Popes, 17

In addition, "the church"(Greek ekklesia = "assembly") in Matthew 16 is actually broad enough to mean both the earthly and heavenly Church. While the earthly Church disappears and reappears occaisionally, the heavenly Church always remains.

So from a scholarly basis, I think the use of Matthew 16 as evidence against a universal apostasy, in contradiction of other Bible verses, is pretty much dead.