Is Another Great Apostasy Possible

[zerinus]

Lets move onward,

Daniel has given the answer to your question. "Move onward" where?

zerinus

[Mudcat]

Daniel has given the answer to your question. "Move onward" where?

zerinus

Hi Zerenus,

You said my answer is in Daniel 2. At least in regards to the CoJCoLDS, it seems the interpretation of Daniel 2 by the LDS Prophet Spencer Kimball would more specifically be that answer.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was restored in 1830 after numerous revelations from the divine source; and this is the kingdom, set up by the God of heaven, that would never be destroyed nor superseded, and the stone cut out of the mountain without hands that would become a great mountain and would fill the whole earth - Spencer Kimball

So there it is, according to LDS leadership, the CoJCoLDS, has been declared apostasy proof.

I suppose since we have such a statement, I don't have any further questions on the topic.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

[zerinus]

Hi Zerenus,

You said my answer is in Daniel 2. At least in regards to the CoJCoLDS, it seems the interpretation of Daniel 2 by the LDS Prophet Spencer Kimball would more specifically be that answer.

So there it is, according to LDS leadership, the CoJCoLDS, has been declared apostasy proof.

I suppose since we have such a statement, I don't have any further questions on the topic.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

Thank you. To add one extra note, that confirmation is actually found in LDS scripture. That is where Spencer W. Kimball got it from:

D&C 65

:

2 The keys of the kingdom of God are committed unto man on the earth, and from thence shall the gospel roll forth unto the ends of the earth,

as the stone which is cut out of the mountain without hands shall roll forth, until it has filled the whole earth

.

zerinus

[erichard]

Thank you. To add one extra note, that confirmation is actually found in LDS scripture. That is where Spencer W. Kimball got it from:

D&C 65

:

2 The keys of the kingdom of God are committed unto man on the earth, and from thence shall the gospel roll forth unto the ends of the earth,

as the stone which is cut out of the mountain without hands shall roll forth, until it has filled the whole earth

.

zerinus

Hi Mudcat and everyone,

The D&C 65 heading says: "The Prophet designates this revelation as a prayer." So it leaves open the possiblity that things could go wrong at least for a time in the latter day restoration leading to Zion. In D&C 84:56-59 the Lord specifically warns his Gentile church (the CJCLDS) of a possible "scourge and judgment" upon it.

I hope no one considers the restoration promises without also considering the restoration warnings.

One clear latter-day prophecy given in the Book of Mormon is that of the LORD's eventual SHIFT from the Gentiles to the House of Israel.

42 And the time cometh that he shall manifest himself unto all nations, both unto the Jews and also unto the Gentiles; and after he has manifested himself unto the Jews and also unto the Gentiles, then he shall manifest himself unto the Gentiles and also unto the Jews, and the last shall be first, and the first shall be last.

--1 Nephi 13

7 Behold, because of their belief in me, saith the Father, and because of the unbelief of you, O house of Israel, in the latter day shall the truth come unto the Gentiles, that the fulness of these things shall be made known unto them.

...

10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.

11 And then will I remember my covenant which I have made unto my people, O house of Israel, and I will bring my gospel unto them.

12 And I will show unto thee, O house of Israel, that the Gentiles shall not have power over you; but I will remember my covenant unto you, O house of Israel, and ye shall come unto the knowledge of the fulness of my gospel.

13 But if the Gentiles will repent and return unto me, saith the Father, behold they shall be numbered among my people, O house of Israel.

-- 3 Nephi 16

I honestly believe there is more room for problems and radical changes in the latter-day restoration than many LDS think. But I do not believe there will be another "great apostacy".

Richard

[Mudcat]

Hi Mudcat and everyone,

The D&C 65 heading says: "The Prophet designates this revelation as a prayer." So it leaves open the possiblity that things could go wrong at least for a time in the latter day restoration leading to Zion. In D&C 84:56-59 the Lord specifically warns his Gentile church (the CJCLDS) of a possible "scourge and judgment" upon it.

I hope no one considers the restoration promises without also considering the restoration warnings.

One clear latter-day prophecy given in the Book of Mormon is that of the LORD's eventual SHIFT from the Gentiles to the House of Israel.

I honestly believe there is more room for problems and radical changes in the latter-day restoration than many LDS think. But I do not believe there will be another "great apostacy".

Richard

Hey Richard,

Been a while. Hope you are doing well and at least in regards to D&C 65. I agree with you. It doesn't explicitly dictate anything that could be construed to mean the CoJCoLDS could never apostatize itself fully. However, given a previous statement that I put up of President Kimball's, do you see the two statements harmonizing to give such an explicit "apostasy proof" statement?

I suppose from my perspective I have difficulty with the whole thing on this bit in Daniel. I have studied it this am and at present I'm inclined to agree with Hippolytus, the disciple of Polycarp. I don't want to derail my own thread, but I may start another one at some point on if the Great/Universal Apostasy that LDS refer to, has occurred.

Good to hear from you.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

[johnny]

BCSpace

The notion that there wasn't a falling away is contraBiblical....

The notion that the church was completely destroyed is contraBiblical....

There was not an apostasy where the church was completely destroyed like the Mormon Church teaches. Before the second coming of Christ there will be a falling away, Christians are to hold to the traditions which that have been taught, whether by word or by epistle (2Thes 2:2-15). After the apostles departed, elders protected the church or flock from false prophets or wolves who speak perverse things to draw disciples after them (Acts 20:28-38). The Lord added to the church daily with those who continued in the doctrine of the apostles (Acts 2:42-47).

That the apostasy is universal is recognized in scripture......

The apostasy is not universal, scripture recognizes SOME will depart from the faith ...

In latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils (1Tim 4:1). Before Jesus departed he told us that many false prophets shall rise, they shall deceive many, they shall show great signs and wonders, and they shall deceive the very elect (Matt 24:11-25). False prophets bring in damnable heresies and many shall follow their pernicious ways (2Pet 2:1-2). False prophets come to you in sheep's clothing, they can say Lord, Lord, they can prophesy and do many wonderful works in the name of Jesus name but Jesus' does not know them (Matt 7:15-23). There are many false prophets, we are not to believe every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God (1John 4:1). The apostle Paul warned that there will be a time when some will not endure sound doctrine and that some shall turn away their ears from the truth (2Tim 4:2-7).

"Asia" is most of the Church at the time. But this is the real kicker.....

While the apostles were alive, some churches kept the words of the apostles and some churches followed false prophets and false apostles and (Rev 2; 3).

Notice that the saints at some future date would be overcome.

Some saints who did not deny the faith of the apostles were martyred or overcome (Rev 13:7; Rev 2:13-23).

Even the early Christians knew of and spoke of the UA. The Pastor of Hermas spoke of the Church as a tower with each individual being one of the stones comprising it's construction. This tower the angel warned, was almost complete and would be replaced by a new and inferior structure. Pastor of Hermas, Vision 2, 3

Even the early Christians do not support the Mormon teachings of an apostasy where the church was completely destroyed. Early Christians like Hermas were not describing a church that would be completely destroyed. The restoration of all things spoken of by the prophets comes after the second coming of Christ (Acts 3:21; Rev 21:5).

[johnny]

Cold Steel

But to answer your question, no, not an entire apostasy. Our scriptures speak of the keys of authority (or the Kingdom) being restored for the "last time." Daniel, in his vision of the future, sees that the Lord would set up a kingdom that would "never be destroyed." Many Christians believe this kingdom was set up in the days of Christ, but in Daniel's vision, it would be set up in the days of "the kings" following the Roman Empire. It would be in the days of the toes, part iron, part clay, and it would not be left to "other men," but would be guided by God. It also would roll forth until it filled the entire Earth. (See Daniel 2.)

I am one of the many Christians that believe this kingdom was set up in the days of Christ, the footnotes in the NAB describe Daniel 2:36-45.

http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/daniel/daniel2.htm

5 [36-45] The four successive kingdoms in this apocalyptic perspective are the Babylonian (gold), the Median (silver), the Persian (bronze), and the Hellenistic (iron). The last, after Alexander's death, was divided among his generals (Daniel 2:41-42). The two resulting kingdoms, which most affected the Jews, were the dynasty of the Ptolemies in Egypt and that of the Seleucids in Syria, who tried in vain, by war and through intermarriage, to restore the unity of Alexander's empire (Daniel 2:43). The stone hewn from the mountain is the messianic kingdom awaited by the Jews (Daniel 2:44-45). Our Lord made this image personal to himself; cf Luke 20:17-18.

[ERayR]

BCSpace

The notion that the church was completely destroyed is contraBiblical....

There was not an apostasy where the church was completely destroyed like the Mormon Church teaches. Before the second coming of Christ there will be a falling away, Christians are to hold to the traditions which that have been taught, whether by word or by epistle (2Thes 2:2-15). After the apostles departed, elders protected the church or flock from false prophets or wolves who speak perverse things to draw disciples after them (Acts 20:28-38). The Lord added to the church daily with those who continued in the doctrine of the apostles (Acts 2:42-47).

The apostasy is not universal, scripture recognizes SOME will depart from the faith ...

In latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils (1Tim 4:1). Before Jesus departed he told us that many false prophets shall rise, they shall deceive many, they shall show great signs and wonders, and they shall deceive the very elect (Matt 24:11-25). False prophets bring in damnable heresies and many shall follow their pernicious ways (2Pet 2:1-2). False prophets come to you in sheep's clothing, they can say Lord, Lord, they can prophesy and do many wonderful works in the name of Jesus name but Jesus' does not know them (Matt 7:15-23). There are many false prophets, we are not to believe every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God (1John 4:1). The apostle Paul warned that there will be a time when some will not endure sound doctrine and that some shall turn away their ears from the truth (2Tim 4:2-7).

While the apostles were alive, some churches kept the words of the apostles and some churches followed false prophets and false apostles and (Rev 2; 3).

Some saints who did not deny the faith of the apostles were martyred or overcome (Rev 13:7; Rev 2:13-23).

Even the early Christians do not support the Mormon teachings of an apostasy where the church was completely destroyed. Early Christians like Hermas were not describing a church that would be completely destroyed. The restoration of all things spoken of by the prophets comes after the second coming of Christ (Acts 3:21; Rev 21:5).

Johnny, the LDS Church does not teach that the church was completly destoyed, that would be foolish as it is obvious that there was a church throughout the ages. What the LDS Church teaches is that the church lost the authority to officiate in the saving ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ and to recieve revelation and divine guidance. The church that was left became a hollow vessel, "teaching a form of godliness but denying the power thereof".

[johnny]

Lightbearer

It was not "humanity" that broke things that brought on the great apostasy. It was a direct effort of Lucifer to destroy the church that caused her to be "driven into the wilderness" and from among men. See the following: (Revelation 12:1-17)

The woman represents the church and the man child the Kingdom of God and His Christ. The rebellion that started in Heaven with Lucifer and one third of the hosts of heaven is continued here on earth, the Church is driven into the wilderness of apostasy by Satan and men are left in darkness for almost two millennia. But although this was foretold and known, it was also foretold and known that there would be a restitution of all things spoken of by all the prophets since the world began. In fact this eternal gospel was to return to earth by angelic messengers: (Revelation 14:6-13)

The church is protected by God's special providence ... the Everlasting good news is that that God's eternal reign is about to begin (see the following footnotes from the NAB bible).

http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/revelati...evelation12.htm

1 [12:1-14:20] This central section of Rev portrays the power of evil, represented by a dragon, in opposition to God and his people. First, the dragon pursues the woman about to give birth, but her son is saved and "caught up to God and his throne" (Rev 12:5). Then Michael and his angels cast the dragon and his angels out of heaven (Rev 12:7-9). After this, the dragon tries to attack the boy indirectly by attacking members of his church (Rev 12:13-17). A beast, symbolizing the Roman empire, then becomes the dragon's agent, mortally wounded but restored to life and worshiped by all the world (Rev 13:1-10). A second beast arises from the land, symbolizing the antichrist, which leads people astray by its prodigies to idolize the first beast (Rev 13:11-18). This is followed by a vision of the Lamb and his faithful ones, and the proclamation of imminent judgment upon the world in terms of the wine of God's wrath (Rev 14:1-20).

2 [1] The woman adorned with the sun, the moon, and the stars (images taken from Genesis 37:9-10) symbolizes God's people in the Old and the New Testament. The Israel of old gave birth to the Messiah (Rev 12:5) and then became the new Israel, the church, which suffers persecution by the dragon (Rev 12:6, 13-17); cf Isaiah 50:1; 66:7; Jeremiah 50:12. This corresponds to a widespread myth throughout the ancient world that a goddess pregnant with a savior was pursued by a horrible monster; by miraculous intervention, she bore a son who then killed the monster.

5 [5] Rule . . . iron rod: fulfilled in Rev 19:15; cf Psalm 2:9. Was caught up to God: reference to Christ's ascension.

6 [6] God protects the persecuted church in the desert, the traditional Old Testament place of refuge for the afflicted, according to the typology of the Exodus; see the note on Rev 11:2.

7 [7-12] Michael, mentioned only here in Rev, wins a victory over the dragon. A hymn of praise follows.

8 [7] Michael: the archangel, guardian and champion of Israel; cf Daniel 10:13, 21; 12:1; Jude 1:9. In Hebrew, the name Michael means "Who can compare with God?"; cf Rev 13:4.

11 [14] Great eagle: symbol of the power and swiftness of divine help; cf Exodus 19:4; Deut 32:11; Isaiah 40:31.

13 [17] Although the church is protected by God's special providence (Rev 12:16), the individual Christian is to expect persecution and suffering.

http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/revelati...evelation14.htm

5 [6-13] Three angels proclaim imminent judgment on the pagan world, calling all peoples to worship God the creator. Babylon (Rome) will fall, and its supporters will be tormented forever.

6 [6] Everlasting good news: that God's eternal reign is about to begin; see the note on Rev 10:7.

[johnny]

ERayR

Johnny, the LDS Church does not teach that the church was completly destoyed, that would be foolish as it is obvious that there was a church throughout the ages.

The Mormon Church teaches:

Mormon Gospel Principles Chapter 16

http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-23,00.html

"Through the persecution and martyrdom of Church leaders and the general wickedness of the people, the Church of Jesus Christ was taken from the earth. . . . . More and more error crept into Church doctrine, and soon the destruction of the Church was complete. The period of time when the true Church no longer existed on earth is called the Great Apostasy. "

[urroner]

6 [6] Everlasting good news: that God's eternal reign is about to begin; see the note on Rev 10:7.

Interesting quote here, if God's eternal reign is about to begin, can something eternal have a beginning?

[urroner]

ERayR

The Mormon Church teaches:

Mormon Gospel Principles Chapter 16

http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-23,00.html

"Through the persecution and martyrdom of Church leaders and the general wickedness of the people, the Church of Jesus Christ was taken from the earth. . . . . More and more error crept into Church doctrine, and soon the destruction of the Church was complete. The period of time when the true Church no longer existed on earth is called the Great Apostasy. "

The Church, as in the organization guided by God and authorized by God with His priesthood, ceased to exist. Righteous people and and organizations that taught doctrines and principles that were true didn't cease to exist. They just didn't have the authority of God.

[ERayR]

The Church, as in the organization guided by God and authorized by God with His priesthood, ceased to exist. Righteous people and and organizations that taught doctrines and principles that were true didn't cease to exist. They just didn't have the authority of God.

Yes thats what I was saying though maybe not well. Thanks

[zerinus]

Hi Mudcat and everyone,

The D&C 65 heading says: "The Prophet designates this revelation as a prayer." So it leaves open the possiblity that things could go wrong at least for a time in the latter day restoration leading to Zion. In D&C 84:56-59 the Lord specifically warns his Gentile church (the CJCLDS) of a possible "scourge and judgment" upon it.

I hope no one considers the restoration promises without also considering the restoration warnings.

Sure many prophecies have been made of trouble ahead, and that the saints will not altogether escape those troubles. But the prophecies also indicate that those who are righteous need not fear, and eventually they will escape those troubles. Here are some interesting prophecies to consider:

2 Nephi 30

:

10 For the time speedily cometh that the Lord God shall cause a great division among the people, and the wicked will he destroy; and he will spare his people, yea, even if it so be that he must destroy the wicked by fire.

D&C 1

:

35 For I am no respecter of persons, and will that all men shall know that the day speedily cometh; the hour is not yet, but is nigh at hand, when peace shall be taken from the earth, and the devil shall have power over his own dominion.

36 And also the Lord shall have power over his saints, and shall reign in their midst, and shall come down in judgment upon Idumea, or the world.

D&C 45

:

68 And it shall come to pass among the wicked, that every man that will not take his sword against his neighbor must needs flee unto Zion for safety.

69 And there shall be gathered unto it out of every nation under heaven; and it shall be the only people that shall not be at war one with another.

70 And it shall be said among the wicked: Let us not go up to battle against Zion, for the inhabitants of Zion are terrible; wherefore we cannot stand.

71 And it shall come to pass that the righteous shall be gathered out from among all nations, and shall come to Zion, singing with songs of everlasting joy.

One clear latter-day prophecy given in the Book of Mormon is that of the LORD's eventual SHIFT from the Gentiles to the House of Israel.

That is a misunderstanding of that prophecy. Latter-day Saints are the house of Israel! The gospel will never be "shifted" from them. Those who become wicked will be rejected; but the righteous will remain true and return and rebuild Zion.

I honestly believe there is more room for problems and radical changes in the latter-day restoration than many LDS think. But I do not believe there will be another "great apostacy".

I am sure changes there will be; but it will be in favor of Zion, not against it.

zerinus

[zerinus]

I don't want to derail my own thread, but I may start another one at some point on if the Great/Universal Apostasy that LDS refer to, has occurred.

If you do, I hope you will read this article first. In it I have tried to address the issue of the LDS doctrine of the Apostasy, and tried to answer as many objections to it by LDS critics that I could find.

zerinus

[johnny]

zerinus

If you do, I hope you will read this article first. In it I have tried to address the issue of the LDS doctrine of the Apostasy, and tried to answer as many objections to it by LDS critics that I could find.

Your article has lot's of problems ... open another thread if you want to talk about them so we don't take this thread off-topic. If you do open another thread post the name and link here so I don't miss it.

[zerinus]

I agree with you. It doesn't explicitly dictate anything that could be construed to mean the CoJCoLDS could never apostatize itself fully. However, given a previous statement that I put up of President Kimball's, do you see the two statements harmonizing to give such an explicit "apostasy proof" statement?

Another important teaching if the LDS Church is that God has dealt with making throughout history thorough several major dispensations. There are seven major dispensations, of which this is the last one before the return of the Savior. The seven dispensations are those of Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Joseph Smith. This is the last and the greatest of all dispensations, called in the scriptures the dispensation of the fullness of times, in which all things pertaining to all previous dispensations will be revealed and restored, plus a lot of things that have never been revealed before. All the previous dispensations have resulted in Apostasy; but this is the last one that will culminate in the Second Coming of the Lord. There is no room for this one to apostatize.

zerinus

[zerinus]

zerinus

Your article has lot's of problems ... open another thread if you want to talk about them so we don't take this thread off-topic. If you do open another thread post the name and link here so I don't miss it.

Okay, done. Here is the link.

zerinus

[erichard]

Sure many prophecies have been made of trouble ahead, and that the saints will not altogether escape those troubles. But the prophecies also indicate that those who are righteous need not fear, and eventually they will escape those troubles. Here are some interesting prophecies to consider:

...

Right. Surely the Lord will protect and save the righteous.

I have a quick question zerinus,

If a member of the Lord's church determined that he should NOT sustain the President of the church, and not reject evidences for this decision-- do you believe he should be automatically excommunicated?

In other words is it guaranteed that the church President will never fall in apostacy (thus leading the way for the church to go into a degree of apostacy?)

Richard

[zerinus]

I have a quick question zerinus,

If a member of the Lord's church determined that he should NOT sustain the President of the church, and not reject evidences for this decision-- do you believe he should be automatically excommunicated?

Part of your question is not clear. Not sure what you mean by "and not reject evidences for this decision". But as far as I can understand your question, the answer is no. I don't believe someone should be excommunicated because they feel that they cannot sustain the Prophet, as long as in other respects they are willing to remain faithful members of the Church.

In other words is it guaranteed that the church President will never fall in apostacy (thus leading the way for the church to go into a degree of apostacy?)

This question is also not very clear. "In other words" suggests that this question follows from the first question, which I don't think it does. But as far as I can understand it, I will try to answer your question. In theory it is possible for the President of the Church to fall into apostasy (the likelihood is near zero); but in the unlikely event that he did, there are mechanisms in place in the Church to rectify the situation, thus preventing him from "leading the Church astray". He has two counselors who are prophets, seers and revelators; and there are the Twelve Apostles who are also prophets, seers, and revelators. If a problem of that kind occurred they would be able to detect it, and rectify the situation. He wouldn't reach a stage of being able to "lead the Church astray".

Also, by "leading the Church astray" we mean intentionally lead the Church astray. It does not mean that the President of the Church cannot make a mistake in doctrine, as some have done (on rare occasions) in the past.

zerinus

[erichard]

Part of your question is not clear. Not sure what you mean by "and not reject evidences for this decision". But as far as I can understand your question, the answer is no. I don't believe someone should be excommunicated because they feel that they cannot sustain the Prophet, as long as in other respects they are willing to remain faithful members of the Church.

...

OK.

If a member chooses to not sustain the President of the church, should he have the right to seek for a D&C 107:81-84 type trial to end a controversy over the church President?

(JST Mark 9:40-48 is a second witness that it is the member's responsibility to remove the "eye of the body" -- the church President-- if he transgresses, and not the responsibility of the Lord.)

Should the evidence the member has for NOT sustaining the church President be used against the member, as a justification for excommunicating the member before the controversy is settled?

Richard

[zerinus]

If a member chooses to not sustain the President of the church, should he have the right to seek for a D&C 107:81-84 type trial to end a controversy over the church President?

Yes.

Should the evidence the member has for NOT sustaining the church President be used against the member, as a justification for excommunicating the member before the controversy is settled?

No.

zerinus

[Mars]

"Great Apostasy" in that there is no one who holds the priesthood of God on the Earth, no. I do not believe that will happen again.

I do believe that there were a lot of apostasies or falling aways. Fallings aways? Fallings away? Whatever. I think it happened between the OT and NT. Every time there's a falling away where there's no one left to act in God's name with authority God set it back up. I believe this is the last one - the stone cut out of the mountain without hands.

I guess the short answer is "No, I don't believe so. I just don't."

[ed2276]

I've been thinking about this concept of a restoration lately.

If we assume that a 'Great Apostasy' occurred and that something happened in the early church where humanity 'broke' things. At least in regards to the Church. Then it would make sense, that a loving God, would do his best to make sure things were 'mended'.

The premise behind the restoration seems to be that man has the power â??free will/agencyâ? to damage the Church to the point that it needs to be mended.

I would like to know what LDS think.

Can their be another â??Great Apostasyâ??

If you think yes or no, then why or why not, respectively?

Respectfully,

Mudcat

I think that there can be another Great Apostasy in these latter times. Perhaps not a complete apostasy, but a very large one. I can't remember where I heard it said, or where I read it before, but I seem to recall the saying that in the CoJCoLDS a large portion of the membership will fall away as persuction intensifies and the world falls deeper and deeper into evil before the Lord comes again.

I do think it is ongoing right now and that it will increase.

[saemo]

The Church, as in the organization guided by God and authorized by God with His priesthood, ceased to exist. Righteous people and and organizations that taught doctrines and principles that were true didn't cease to exist. They just didn't have the authority of God.

Proof please.