God And Absolute Knowledge

[Bee Eff]

God does not know exactly what will happen.

If he did, God would be culpable for all sin. Thus, God cannot know, absolutely, what will happen, but only the probability of various events occuring.

Does this threaten many non-LDS view of God? How do they reconcile this fact?

[3DOP]

BeeEff

How do they reconcile this fact?

3DOP

There is no attempt at reconciliation. You shouldn't presume universal acceptance of your logic.

[Chris Smith]

God does not know exactly what will happen.

If he did, God would be culpable for all sin. Thus, God cannot know, absolutely, what will happen, but only the probability of various events occuring.

Does this threaten many non-LDS view of God? How do they reconcile this fact?

The Calvinist gentleman who teaches my Christian theology class stated the other day that all orthodox theology posits a separation between the will of God and the evil that happens in the world. But I think he's wrong (and frankly how he can say this and be a Calvinist is rather beyond me). While many theologies have attempted such a separation, some have simply accepted that God was the author of evil, and suggested that although from our perspective evil is something to be overcome, it is nevertheless a good and necessary part of the cosmic narrative when viewed from an absolute perspective.

[Bee Eff]

BeeEff

How do they reconcile this fact?

3DOP

There is no attempt at reconciliation. You shouldn't presume universal acceptance of your logic.

So, are you stating that God is not culpable in this hypothetical?

Sorry, logic is logic, God would be culpable. If man has no choice, he is not responsible; If man is not responsible, punishment is not just.

Please defend your position that God would not be culpable.

[BCSpace]

If I know a crime is about to be committed but, due to circumstances, could do nothing about it, am I culpable? So likewise, if God knows a sin is about to be committed, but by law (agency) can do nothing about it, how is He culpable?

Btw, I don't believe God knows the future with absolute certainty, just a high degree of probability, but I don't see how God knowing absolutely takes choice away from men.

[3DOP]

So, are you stating that God is not culpable in this hypothetical?

Sorry, logic is logic, God would be culpable. If man has no choice, he is not responsible; If man is not responsible, punishment is not just.

Please defend your position that God would not be culpable.

It seems like your philosophy is predominating and regulating theology when you say...

God does not know exactly what will happen.

If he did, God would be culpable for all sin.

I am uncomfortable with arriving at the knowledge of God in this way. Your confidence in your logic puts me on my guard. What I mean is that I would be afraid that I could make a mistake apart from some very strong revelation leading the way, denying God's full knowledge. This is especially the case in light of passages that seem to indicate that nothing escapes God's understanding and knowledge.

When I mentioned that there is "no attempt at reconciliation" I meant that I have little confidence that a philosopher can with certainty know that freedom of the will is incompatible with God's omniscience. In light of warnings in revelation that "God's ways are not man's ways, nor His thoughts our thoughts", it just seems like an unwise and presumptuous leap to imagine that I have enough knowledge of the ways of my Maker to be able to pin things down like you seem to think you have.

You asked how non-LDS reconcile your facts. As you see, I don't necessarily accept your facts. It seems to me like there could be factors that I couldn't possibly know about that would enable God to omnisciently create free beings. I was speaking for myself of course, and perhaps I am a fool. My concern with your approach is that I don't think it is given unto men to see into the very depths of the ways of God by the light of mere natural reason (philosophy). Still, if you are correct, I trust the God that you love will not be too upset with such a nincompoop as me for believing that He is good even while I foolishly believe He is all-knowing.

Sincerely,

3DOP

[LDSMusic483]

God does not know exactly what will happen.

If he did, God would be culpable for all sin. Thus, God cannot know, absolutely, what will happen, but only the probability of various events occuring.

Does this threaten many non-LDS view of God? How do they reconcile this fact?

You made your claim first, so you defend yours first. I always find it interesting that you will never find in the scriptures that God knows only all possibilities, but you do find plenty of times that He knows ALL things, and there isn't ANYTHING that He doesn't know. So you make the claim you defend.

[Rob Osborn]

God cannot possibly know the absolute future, to do so would deny the fact that we have choice. That is why God always gives us multiple scenerios on what will happen. If we obey then this, if we disobey then that. Both cannot possibly happen at the same time- only one or the other. He may know the differing routes we will be presented with, but he cannot absolutely know which of the differing routes we will end up taking before we make that decision ourselves. The scriptures are replete with warnings and blessings given us depending upon our choice- it is not set in stone and neither is it already written and thus just a mirage for us.

I have yet to see someone produce a theorim that works on how god could possibly know the absolute truth. The closest thing that exists is that God already knows the future because for him it has already happened, he being outside of time. Such a weak weak argument that is!!

"God knows all that he possibly can know" Is it possible to see the exact future before it has happened? No and this because one could thus manipulate the present to bring about change on the seen future and make the future a neverending change of events based upon that manipulation.

We could also state if god does know the absolute future in exactness that he would thus be outside of being able to make decisions on his own. He would already know exactly what he is to say and do at every exact moment. He would know that he has no control over what he wants to say but rather what he absolutley must say and do according to the future he already knows. But did he plan this, or was it a god above him? Certainly according to logic it would thus be some other power higher than him and above him. He thus really has no agency in the matter- he is a puppet to the future already perfectly laid out for him and he is thus left without any decision making capability.

Ver, very bad logic there. God thus cannot know what exactly will happen, only what possibilities could happen according to his and our decisions we make in real time.

[Lightbearer]

God does not know exactly what will happen.

If he did, God would be culpable for all sin. Thus, God cannot know, absolutely, what will happen, but only the probability of various events occuring.

Does this threaten many non-LDS view of God? How do they reconcile this fact?

I will CFR your entire statement. The scriptures indicate that God knows ALL THINGS, I will cite a few for your enjoyment:

(1 John 3:20) "For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things."

And again:

(D&C 88:41) "He comprehendeth all things, and all things are before him, and all things are round about him; and he is above all things, and in all things, and is through all things, and is round about all things; and all things are by him, and of him, even God, forever and ever."

Also:

(Abraham 2:8 ) "My name is Jehovah, and I know the end from the beginning; therefore my hand shall be over thee."

And finally:

(2 Nephi 9:20) "O how great the holiness of our God! For he knoweth all things, and there is not anything save he knows it."

Now I have the word of all of the four standard works that state that God knows all things. Please show me in any of these standard works where this idea is contradicted! Now in addition I will also add that if God did not know all things then He could not tell us through Prophets what WILL come to pass. Not may, but will. I do not believe in a limited God, I believe in a God who is both infinite and eternal and who knows all things. Just because He know a thing does not mean He approves of it or is culpable in any way. He has given us agency and therefore the ability to do that which is against His will. He does not "make things happen" just because He foresees it. He does intrude into the affairs of men when it suit's His purposes. He will part the Red Sea or prevent illness or accidents from destroying His servants in the flesh, but He does not restrict us in our agency. Our thoughts are not like His thoughts:

(Isaiah 55:8-11) "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it."

Often as LDS we tend to think that God is on an equal plane with us because of our potential to become like Him, however until we are glorified and receive of His fullness we must "see through a glass darkly" and we suppose that God has similar limitations but I say that this is a mistake. Although we may have many things revealed to us that are hidden from the world, there are things that we can not comprehend in the mortal frame of existence, I believe the omniscience of God is one of those things. All our supposed mortal logic cannot find Him out, that is why we must trust in Him and in order to have faith unto salvation it is essential that God knows ALL THINGS. If He did not, then would it be possible for Him to discover a truth that could "undo" the immortality and eternal life of man? If so we (God included) would be standing in jeopardy ever hour of our existence. As for the "how" mortal men can become an eternal being as God is and know all things I offer the following clue:

(D&C 130:6-11) "The angels do not reside on a planet like this earth; But they reside in the presence of God, on a globe like a sea of glass and fire, where all things for their glory are manifest, past, present, and future, and are continually before the Lord. The place where God resides is a great Urim and Thummim. This earth, in its sanctified and immortal state, will be made like unto crystal and will be a Urim and Thummim to the inhabitants who dwell thereon, whereby all things pertaining to an inferior kingdom, or all kingdoms of a lower order, will be manifest to those who dwell on it; and this earth will be Christâ??s. Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known; And a white stone is given to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, whereon is a new name written, which no man knoweth save he that receiveth it. The new name is the key word."

I realize these are mysterious things that is hard for us to comprehend but nevertheless it is true and again I CFR and defy anyone to show one scripture that states that God does not know all things. You cannot because it does not exist and until God reveals more on this subject I suggest that anything that is stated that God is not omniscient or omnipotent is nothing more than speculation which is not founded in the scriptures.

[Bee Eff]

I will CFR your entire statement. The scriptures indicate that God knows ALL THINGS, I will cite a few for your enjoyment:And again:Also:And finally:Now I have the word of all of the four standard works that state that God knows all things. Please show me in any of these standard works where this idea is contradicted! Now in addition I will also add that if God did not know all things then He could not tell us through Prophets what WILL come to pass. Not may, but will. I do not believe in a limited God, I believe in a God who is both infinite and eternal and who knows all things. Just because He know a thing does not mean He approves of it or is culpable in any way. He has given us agency and therefore the ability to do that which is against His will. He does not "make things happen" just because He foresees it. He does intrude into the affairs of men when it suit's His purposes. He will part the Red Sea or prevent illness or accidents from destroying His servants in the flesh, but He does not restrict us in our agency. Our thoughts are not like His thoughts:Often as LDS we tend to think that God is on an equal plane with us because of our potential to become like Him, however until we are glorified and receive of His fullness we must "see through a glass darkly" and we suppose that God has similar limitations but I say that this is a mistake. Although we may have many things revealed to us that are hidden from the world, there are things that we can not comprehend in the mortal frame of existence, I believe the omniscience of God is one of those things. All our supposed mortal logic cannot find Him out, that is why we must trust in Him and in order to have faith unto salvation it is essential that God knows ALL THINGS. If He did not, then would it be possible for Him to discover a truth that could "undo" the immortality and eternal life of man? If so we (God included) would be standing in jeopardy ever hour of our existence. As for the "how" mortal men can become an eternal being as God is and know all things I offer the following clue:I realize these are mysterious things that is hard for us to comprehend but nevertheless it is true and again I CFR and defy anyone to show one scripture that states that God does not know all things. You cannot because it does not exist and until God reveals more on this subject I suggest that anything that is stated that God is not omniscient or omnipotent is nothing more than speculation which is not founded in the scriptures.

Your statements all require interpretation to read as you do.

"Knowing all things" does not necessitate knowing things that do not exist. The future does not exist, nothing about it exists, it will exist, but does not currently exist. Given this, a statement "knows all things" does not necessitate a knowledge of future events that do not exist. This allows for free agency. Now, I believe that God does have an absolute knowledge concerning what God will do, but this is different than having an absolute knowledge of what I will or will not do. God I can accept knows absolutely the probabilities, but not the absolutes of future events.

I would cite Jonah as an example of the knowledge of probability in statements concerning the future and not knowledge of an absolute future.

If in fact as you claim, God has an absolute knowledge of the future and is unlimited in his power, it would in fact be possible to present man and the stimuli surrounding man in such a manner that sin would not occur. As such, the manner of presentation is in fact the reason for the sin, unless of course God deals in probable future and not an absolute future.

I never claimed God did not "know all things." I claimed that God does not know things that are not real/existent, the future does not exist, it will exist, but it does not exist.

God "discover[ing] a truth that could 'undo' the immortality and eternal life of man" would imply that God did not have a perfect understanding of existence as it is. Not knowing, absolutely, what will occur in the currently non-existent future is completely different than not knowing everything that exists and the laws governign everything that exists. I believe that God's knowledge of probable futures is to the extent that it is nearly beyond probability and into the absolute, but I believe it is always possible for good to be chosen over evil, and vice versa, this threatens the concept of absolute knowledge of the future. Your claim there is based in a false premise.

Also, knowing the state that is the end is different than knowing the future.

[Jason]

As I see it, God's knowledge of the future only precludes human choice if it has some sort of compulsory effect. If God's knowledge is not exerting any sort of compulsory effect forcing us to choose what He has forseen then we are in fact free to choose, even if God knows what we will eventually choose. It is essentially merely a very accurate prediction.

[Chris Smith]

Also, knowing the state that is the end is different than knowing the future.

What about the "from the beginning" part? Just curious.

Ver, very bad logic there.

In the God/evil thread (now on something like its 14th page) this has been debated at considerable length, with no decisive victory for either side. At the very least, I think it's fair to say that if determinism has problems with "freedom", libertarian freedom has problems with "will". I wouldn't call either side's reasoning "very, very bad logic".

[Chris Smith]

As I see it, God's knowledge of the future only precludes human choice if it has some sort of compulsory effect. If God's knowledge is not exerting any sort of compulsory effect forcing us to choose what He has forseen then we are in fact free to choose, even if God knows what we will eventually choose. It is essentially merely a very accurate prediction.

If God knows what you will choose, then you cannot choose anything else. If you can't choose anything else, then you are not free in the libertarian sense. Libertarian freedom and God's knowledge of the future are not compatible. (Maybe you're actually a compatibilist? But that's not how you've been coming across in the other thread. What you wrote above is equivalent to johndoe's position.)

[Jason]

If God knows what you will choose, then you cannot choose anything else. If you can't choose anything else, then you are not free in the libertarian sense. Libertarian freedom and God's knowledge of the future are not compatible.

They don't appear to be, no, but I am looking at the two concepts with a mortal perspective and a limited understanding.

Since I see no way that moral responsibility can be attached to an action without the actual capacity to have chosen to do otherwise I am stuck with a libertarian point of view on free will in spite of also believing that God has accurate foreknowledge of the future.

[JDave]

If God cannot know what will happen in the future, how does God prophecy about the future -- sometimes very precisely?

If God knows what you will choose, then you cannot choose anything else. If you can't choose anything else, then you are not free in the libertarian sense. Libertarian freedom and God's knowledge of the future are not compatible.

I also am confused with how God knowing the future implicitly leads to me not being able to choose. If God knows what I will choose because I couldn't choose otherwise, then I don't have true choice. If God knows what I will choose because God is omniscient, then my choice is known to him.

[Bee Eff]

What about the "from the beginning" part? Just curious.

"I know the end from the beginning"

A plan demands a timeline, knowing the state that is, or rather will be, the end is a perfectly predictable state. If I state that I, as refereee, will end a basketball game at the point when one of the scores is a minimum of 21 and at least 2 points ahead of the opponent, are the plays in the game decided? Knowing "the end from the beginning" does not threaten the agency of the players.

[hagoth7]

God does not know exactly what will happen.

CFR please?

If he did, God would be culpable for all sin.

I disagree. Knowing something and being a cause of something are not the same thing.

Thus, God cannot know, absolutely, what will happen, but only the probability of various events occuring.

I disagree with the premise, and have yet to see a basis for that premise.

I also disagree with the logic, and with the conclusion.

[Chris Smith]

I also am confused with how God knowing the future implicitly leads to me not being able to choose. If God knows what I will choose because I couldn't choose otherwise, then I don't have true choice. If God knows what I will choose because God is omniscient, then my choice is known to him.

How could God know for sure what you will choose if you could choose otherwise?

[Bee Eff]

If God cannot know what will happen in the future, how does God prophecy about the future -- sometimes very precisely?

Present state may in fact dictate future state regardless of choice made. Also, everything that is not man may in fact not have agency. God can control the weather/environment I am sure, events that act as impetus for action may be controlled by God. Stating that there would be days without darkness is not necessarily prophecy. If I intend to dig up the grass in my yard is it prophecy to me if I state that I will be no grass in my yard on a specific date? Prophecy is a statement to man by God concerning his plans in the future.

[Jason]

Present state may in fact dictate future state regardless of choice made. Also, everything that is not man may in fact not have agency. God can control the weather/environment I am sure, events that act as impetus for action may be controlled by God. Stating that there would be days without darkness is not necessarily prophecy. If I intend to dig up the grass in my yard is it prophecy to me if I state that I will be no grass in my yard on a specific date? Prophecy is a statement to man by God concerning his plans in the future.

Which unfortunately does not explain how God could accurately predict the name of Jesus' mother 600 years before she was born.

[Bee Eff]

CFR please?

John 8:36 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

If I am "free indeed", I can make choices that are not in the absolute exact unchangable future.

Thus, God cannot see an absolute exact future without another possibility.

There is one reference.

[JDave]

Present state may in fact dictate future state regardless of choice made. Also, everything that is not man may in fact not have agency. God can control the weather/environment I am sure, events that act as impetus for action may be controlled by God. Stating that there would be days without darkness is not necessarily prophecy. If I intend to dig up the grass in my yard is it prophecy to me if I state that I will be no grass in my yard on a specific date? Prophecy is a statement to man by God concerning his plans in the future.

And when the prophecy requires human action?

[Bee Eff]

Which unfortunately does not explain how God could accurately predict the name of Jesus' mother 600 years before she was born.

Why couldn't he state that Christ would be born to a woman named Mary? It isn't that difficult a thing to wait until such a time when she would occur. Also, perhaps God inspired Mary's parents to name her such.

[Bee Eff]

And when the prophecy requires human action?

Show me a prophecy that requires human action that is also absolute in nature.

If there is one, this is not a huge deal, God can manipulate the environment to increase the probability of one thing occuring over another. I never claimed God could not create a predisposition or tendancy towards action, or even that he could not state a certainty with an infinitesimally small probability of error. Probability allows freedom of action, absolutes do not.

[JDave]

How could God know for sure what you will choose if you could choose otherwise?

I currently subscribe to the 'weak weak argument' that God is outside of time, and fully aware of it. I don't buy the 'very very bad logic' though...