The Churchâ??s Changing Position On Birth Control

[katherine the great]

With advances in modern medicine and prenatal care, a couple married in their senior year at BYU could easily have 20-25 children before menopause. This doctrine simply has no place in the modern world. Some are fortunate as to practice no birth control and have a manageable family size, but it would be highly irresponsible for these individuals to suggest a universal policy.

Shopping at Nordstrom for cell phones for 20 kids who have their own rooms is simply too expensive. Prenatal care is an unnecessary luxury.

[John Larsen]

John Larson:

Not without polygamy.

There's a good idea whose time has come.

[thesometimesaint]

John Larsen:

The wives would be OK, the Mothers-In-Law not so much.

Ps. Lest anyone think otherwise. I really do love my wife's mom. She is a great lady. After all she raised a wonderful daughter.

[LeSellers]

there are some realities that you need to face. First, people work further away from their homes nowadays because affordable homes are not to be found in major cities. Even still, near a major centre, two incomes are almost requisite to own a modest home. ...

Oh, I hear ya.

I have so little experience in this. Gee, we only have seven children, so I don't know anything about the costs of raising children. And neither do my sons and daughters, from whom we have 21 grandchildren (so far â?? 17 in three families, and all of them still growing), none of whose mothers work out of their homes. Now, we managed, living in a three bedroom house, we only had one computer for all nine of us (even though most of our children were in Computer Science in college, junior college). We only had one car most of our married life, and we lived ten miles from the nearest gas station. I rode a bicycle to work for years, both in the Army and in civilian life. That car was a Dodge MaxiVan. We have taken more vacation in the past four years than in the thirty prior. The only time either my Jacquie or I have ever been in a Nordstrom was by mistake, or when I was doing a "Mystery Shop".

Oh, we raised goats for milk and meat, carrots and beets, lettuce and spinach, and apples and pomegranates to eat, and we typically lived near large cities, including Naples, Italy (3 ¹/₂ years), and Sacramento, California (19 years). I have commuted 130 miles one way for seven years to a part-time job that provided most of our income much of that time.

I stand by my assertion. Most of us spend more than we need to to live, and that the choice of small families is made more often for personal convenience than for economic necessity.

Lehi

[BCSpace]

No doubt some Church leaders 30 and 40 years ago thought any use of birth control meant selfishly limiting the size of the family. But can you see anything in the references you gave that actually says anything against the use of birth control devices or pills etc. or is it simply against selfishly limiting the size of you're family?

Since I see the latter, I'd have to say there really hasn't been a changing position at all. It's remained the same.

From the 1969 position,

it is contrary to the teachings of the Church artificially to curtail or prevent the birth of children.

"Artificially curtaining or preventing the birth of children" means using birth control pills or devices to limit or delay having children, does it not?

To the letter of the law, yes. However, the spirit of the law is simply the selfish limiting of family size which really has nothing at all to do with birth control methods, While admitedly it is easy to see many taking the letter of the law, it is for that I reason maintain the Church's position has not really changed at all. For example, abstinence is not an "artificial" means, yet it can be used to limit family size.

[LeSellers]

Shopping at Nordstrom for cell phones for 20 kids who have their own rooms is simply too expensive. Prenatal care is an unnecessary luxury.

Much of the time, it is.

USmerican infants die more often at birth than those of many third world countries, and some (or much) of hte blame lies at the doorstep of highly interventionist medicine. There is a time for ultrasounds, every pregnancy is not that time. There is a time for Cesarean Sections, but some hospitals have more than 50% of the births by C-Section.

Somehow, women had successful pregnancies before Hippocrates, and the human population shows that we are a highly successful species. Giving birth is not a disease, new mothers are not sick, nor are their children. Putting them in hospitals full of sick people gives rise to staph and other infections, many of which are highly transmissible and more virulent than the ordinary strains outside of hospitals.

A doctor's wife suffered her husband's ire when she complained that "his" hospital treated her like a side of beef, until he had to go in for emergency surgery. Then he understood.

There is a balance between the highly intrusive "prenatal care" that is normal in our litigious society and the necessary care that got us to 6 ¹/₃ billion people on the planet. Most of whom are born at home, with little or no medical attention at all.

Yes, my Jacquie chose to have children with midwives, at home, as has one of our daughters. But she only has six children, five at home (after she learned how useless hospitals are for normal deliveries, and how harsh doctors can be), so what does she know? And the cost was less than $1,000 per healthy child.

Lehi

[beamer]

Yes, my Jacquie chose to have children with midwives, at home, as has one of our daughters. But she only has six children, five at home (after she learned how useless hospitals are for normal deliveries, and how harsh doctors can be), so what does she know? And the cost was less than $1,000 per healthy child.

That's great. I priced homebirth midwives last year, and I found the range was $2500-$3000. Most insurance policies don't like to cover homebirth midwives, and those that do usually won't do so without a fight or insisting on reimbursing the person later. I paid $1300 total for my hospital birth of my last child. I couldn't afford a homebirth, and a lot of women in the U.S. are the same. Having babies is expensive if you don't plan on having an unassisted birth.

[katherine the great]

LeSellers, I must admit I've never seen another poster quite as full of themselves as you are. Why do you waste your time with us unworthies? Don't you have a goat to milk?

[bluebell]

Yes, my Jacquie chose to have children with midwives, at home, as has one of our daughters. But she only has six children, five at home (after she learned how useless hospitals are for normal deliveries, and how harsh doctors can be), so what does she know? And the cost was less than $1,000 per healthy child.

Lehi

Lehi, you need to stop judging everyone based on your life.

The bill for my first child was 19,000 dollars-i had a perfect pregnancy and beginning of labor and then ended up having an emergency c-section with my baby spending the first three days of his life in the NICU. If i had been having a home birth, we both would have died there.

Based on my first pregnancy and delivery-no homebirth mid wife would agree to take me for my second. I was WAY to high risk. I did have a fairly normal birth at a hosptial with no c-section, but it was not without complications that were very expensive. Due to these complications, i was not able to breastfeed my second, and formula ran us 100+ a month for 12 months.

It's now known that my body does not handle delivery very well, though my pregnancies are fine. There's no hope for me to ever have a 'cheap' birth.

Right now, my husband makes 21,000 a year gross. I do not work outside the home, we have one car, and we rent a very small two bedroom home that used to be a barn which costs us 750 dollars a month-i've looked and it's the cheapest place we could rent that has a garage, a necessity as my husband uses our garage to create our income.

My oldest son gets to do one extra curricular activity this year (youth basketball) and my youngest doesn't get to do anything because of the cost.

I don't say all this to complain-we are VERY blessed and i mean that literally. I'm extremely happy with my life and we have never suffered for want of any necessity and we've not had to be on government assistance except for a short period many years ago when we had no insurance and my husband was in college. I consider it divine intervention that our lives, monetarily speaking, are as smooth as they are.

I only mean to illustrate how little you know about the cost that some of us must pay to bring a child into the world and how that affects our families. I agree that sometimes people claim kids are too expensive when what they really mean is 'too expensive to afford with all the other things i have and want'-but just take care that you don't judge everyone to fit that mode-it would be an unrighteous judgement.

[katherine the great]

That's great. I priced homebirth midwives last year, and I found the range was $2500-$3000. Most insurance policies don't like to cover homebirth midwives, and those that do usually won't do so without a fight or insisting on reimbursing the person later. I paid $1300 total for my hospital birth of my last child. I couldn't afford a homebirth, and a lot of women in the U.S. are the same. Having babies is expensive if you don't plan on having an unassisted birth.

You're wasting your breath. LeSellers is perfect. We are all liars and women should just buck up and die in childbirth If they can't take it.

[Log]

Nevermind.

[Traela]

And let's not forget that in "the good old days," premature babies and sick children died. Period. There was no extremely expensive medical care to be paid for, either individually or through high taxes.

[katherine the great]

Nevermind.

Its okay. You can say it. (we all know what you were going to say anyway...)

[Log]

Its okay. You can say it. (we all know what you were going to say anyway...)

Oh, do tell.

[katherine the great]

Oh, do tell.

It's okay. Whenever you're ready just shout it out!

[Log]

It's okay. Whenever you're ready just shout it out!

I'm ready to hear what you think I was going to say! <---- exclamation point means I'm shouting.

[LeSellers]

LeSellers is perfect.

How in the world could I possibly be perfect, katy? I'm not you.

Lehi

[katherine the great]

How in the world could I possibly be perfect, katy? I'm not you.

Lehi

[LeSellers]

Lehi, you need to stop judging everyone based on your life.

I don't. I offer some examples of a successful life, you get upset.

The wicked flee when no man pursueth.

The bill for my first child was 19,000 dollars-i had a perfect pregnancy and beginning of labor and then ended up having an emergency c-section with my baby spending the first three days of his life in the NICU. If i had been having a home birth, we both would have died there.

Apparently, you are one of those for whom Cesarean Section are needed. Two percent of births require interventionist medicine. The rest do not.

Based on my first pregnancy and delivery-no homebirth mid wife would agree to take me for my second. I was WAY to high risk. I did have a fairly normal birth at a hosptial with no c-section, but it was not without complications that were very expensive. Due to these complications, i was not able to breastfeed my second, and formula ran us 100+ a month for 12 months.

Why so defensive? I said that there were times and places for all of this kind of thing. My point was that there is no need for it every time, or even most of the time.

Right now, my husband makes 21,000 a year gross.

I'm sure this isn't news, but that may be a problem for you.

I only mean to illustrate how little you know about the cost that some of us must pay to bring a child into the world and how that affects our families. I agree that sometimes people claim kids are too expensive when what they really mean is 'too expensive to afford with all the other things i have and want'-but just take care that you don't judge everyone to fit that mode-it would be an unrighteous judgement.

I am not judging at all. I am only saying that many people make choices that limit their families based on bad assumptions about what constitutes "being able to afford it". Some things are worth sacrificing for.

You said exactly what I did (bolded above). Why the animosity?

Lehi

[bluebell]

I don't. I offer some examples of a successful life, you get upset.

The wicked flee when no man pursueth.

Apparently, you are one of those for whom Cesarean Section are needed. Two percent of births require interventionist medicine. The rest do not.

Why so defensive? I said that there were times and places for all of this kind of thing. My point was that there is no need for it every time, or even most of the time.

I'm sure this isn't news, but that may be a problem for you.

I am not judging at all. I am only saying that many people make choices that limit their families based on bad assumptions about what constitutes "being able to afford it". Some things are worth sacrificing for.

You said exactly what I did (bolded above). Why the animosity?

Lehi

No defensiveness or animosity Lehi, just helping you to see how you are coming across in your posts by pointing out that no matter what your words said, the whole tone of your post said something completely different. Katherine has already pointed out that whether or not it's true, you come across as a very judgemental person who believes himself to be superior to most others.

Since you are probably NOT that kind of person, you probably would want to know that's how you are coming across, so you can fix it. If you don't care how people preceive you, or you actually ARE that kind of a person, then you can just keep on posting as you are.

[why me]

I can see that times are changing in America. In the good ol' days, lds families had large families with the understanding that heavenly father would bless them. And it did not matter if a member was poor or rich---the children came into this world. I remember the commandment quite well: multiply and replenish the earth.

Now it seems that more and more lds are looking at children in terms of cost effectiveness. I cannot blame them. Kids are expensive. But then again, if this is the case, then I would have to say that any system that makes a birth of a child expensive must be of the devil since it is the devil who wishes to prevent spirits from receiving a body.

But then again, in poor societies childbirth is increasing and in muslim societies, childbirth is also increasing. It seems that only in the self-interested west, is child birth decreasing.

[thesometimesaint]

It takes over 1/4 of a million dollars to raise just one child to adulthood in an American middle class lifestyle.

http://www.jstor.org/pss/3463441

Our theoretical Peter Priesthood Perfect Parent with his 13 kids is going to have to make about $200,000 a year just to live middle class.

[Traela]

Why so defensive? I said that there were times and places for all of this kind of thing. My point was that there is no need for it every time, or even most of the time.

Lehi

Her point, I believe, many people prefer to have their babies in a hospital setting, because sometimes there is no way of knowing that there will be problems. I also had a completely non-eventful pregnancy that ended in an emergency c-section. Had I judged by my previous 4 mostly-problem-free, why-am-I-in-the-hospital births and tried to stay home, that baby would have died.

[LeSellers]

Our theoretical Peter Priesthood Perfect Parent with his 13 kids is going to have to make about $200,000 a year just to live middle class.

Is there some requirement to "live middle class"? Is this a new Temple Recommend Interview question? I must have missed it.

Lehi

[LeSellers]

Her point, I believe, many people prefer to have their babies in a hospital setting, because sometimes there is no way of knowing that there will be problems.

Sometimes, yes, but there are very few families who are further than 20 minutes from a hospital.

Doctors I have read explicitly say that twenty minutes is ample time to get there in those rare cases where there are unexpected complications. Midwives are trained to identify them early and to respond quickly.

I also had a completely non-eventful pregnancy that ended in an emergency c-section. Had I judged by my previous 4 mostly-problem-free, why-am-I-in-the-hospital births and tried to stay home, that baby would have died.

I don't know your history and am not trained in obstetrics anyway. However, the sources I have read on the matter are clear that such life-threatening emergencies are overstated in terms of the time frame for a fatality.

One of the problems in this kind of discussion is that emotions are near the surface, and emotions, by definition are not measurable, nor are they subject to analysis, nor can we treat them with logic.

When people get wrapped up in their emotions, they say and do things that are incomprehensible to others looking on, or even those who are participating, but who do not have an emotional involvement.

I believe that people who say that it is more expensive today to raise children do not have a good perspective on the subject. I have studied it over forty-five years or so, and have come to the conclusion that children have always been expensive, but that a range of values and expectations are now in play that did not weigh in the calculation a couple of generations ago.

Lehi