Why Do Christians Say Mormons Are Not Christian?

[ebeddoulos]

Who let that fly in here?

Pirate Personality Test:

http://www.talklikeapirate.com/ppi.html

My results:

The Quartermaster

Profile: The Quartermaster (The shipâ??s disciplinarian).You, me hearty, are a man or woman of action! And what action it is! Gruesome, awful, delightful action. You mete out punishment to friend and foe alike â?? well, mostly to foe, because your burning inner rage isnâ??t likely to draw you a whole lot of the former. Still, though you may be what today is called â??high maintenanceâ? and in the past was called â??bat-**** crazy,â? the crew likes to have you around because in a pinch your maniacal combat prowess may be the only thing that saves them from Jack Ketch. When not in a pinch, the rest of the crew will goad you into berserker mode because itâ??s just kind of fun to watch. So you provide a double service â?? doling out discipline AND entertainment.

Hoist the yellow jack â?¦ that be a scurvy ridden link ... Me thinks it run a rig for this be me results as well:

• The Quartermaster
  Profile: The Quartermaster (The shipâ??s disciplinarian).You, me hearty, are a man or woman of action! And what action it is! Gruesome, awful, delightful action. You mete out punishment to friend and foe alike â?? well, mostly to foe, because your burning inner rage isnâ??t likely to draw you a whole lot of the former. Still, though you may be what today is called â??high maintenanceâ? and in the past was called â??bat-**** crazy,â? the crew likes to have you around because in a pinch your maniacal combat prowess may be the only thing that saves them from Jack Ketch. When not in a pinch, the rest of the crew will goad you into berserker mode because itâ??s just kind of fun to watch. So you provide a double service â?? doling out discipline AND entertainment.
  

What say ye all?

[Pahoran]

Well, since I can't beat 'em:

You are The Cap'n!

Some men and women are born great, some achieve greatness and some slit the throats of any scalawag who stands between them and unlimited power. You never met a man - or woman - you couldn't eviscerate. You are the definitive Man of Action, the CEO of the Seven Seas, Lee Iacocca in a blousy shirt and drawstring-fly pants. You're mission-oriented, and if anyone gets in the way, that's his problem, now isn't? Your buckle was swashed long ago and you have never been so sure of anything as your ability to bend everyone to your will. You will call anyone out and cut off his head if he shows any sign of taking you on or backing down. If one of your lieutenants shows an overly developed sense of ambition he may find more suitable accommodations in Davy Jones' locker. That is, of course, IF you notice him. You tend to be self absorbed - a weakness that may keep you from seeing enemies where they are and imagining them where they are not.

And all I have to say about that is:

SWAB THE DECK, YE LAZY LUBBERS!

Regards,

Pahoran

[Log]

Mine said I was the cap'n too - my only problem is, I'm on a one-man dinghy.

[Pahoran]

Mine said I was the cap'n too - my only problem is, I'm on a one-man dinghy.

Well matey, I just spent six months in a leaky boat.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Doctor Steuss]

Well matey, I just spent six months in a leaky boat.

Regards,

Pahoran

I got sea-sick during the car ride to the dock.

[consiglieri]

Dang Consig, posters are calling you names. Also I didn't realize you were old enough to watch a show from the early 70's.

I hope that's not a turn-off.

[selek]

I hope that's not a turn-off.

No.....but that was.

[Log]

Since we're all off-topic 'n' stuff, did you know Tron 2 was coming out?

I'm like all totally jazzed!

[Anijen]

I got sea-sick during the car ride to the dock.

Luxury! we didn't even have a dock....

[consiglieri]

No.....but that was.

Looks like my bases are covered, then.

[Akboy]

Of course. Please read Offenders for a Word, by Peterson and Ricks. It settles the matter, fully and finally.

So you agree with the dictionary definition that a Christian is someone who follows Christ's teachings and example?

"Their core teachings contradict each other?" Really?

Our "core teachings" are of the life and teachings of Jesus Christ, and of his Atonement, as recorded in the New Testament. Do EV's contradict these events?

Do your core teachings include grace and salvation? Yes, LDS and EV teachings on those subjects contradict each other.

As Peterson and Ricks demonstrate, the defining characteristic of Christians from the very beginning was devotion to Jesus Christ as the uniquely normative figure in their faith. It was never consensus about this or that doctrine. Absolutely every doctrine that the self-appointed gatekeepers try to use to exclude us from Christianity has been believed at some time or other by groups whose Christianity is never questioned. Offenders for a Word. goes into this in some detail.

Salvation was one of the most, if not the most, important teachings Christ had. Is it possible for someone to be devoted to Christ if they are completely wrong about salvation?

I'm not saying you have to believe in doctrines like the trinity, 'God is a spirit,' 6-day creation, infallible Bible, closed canon or others to be a Christian. Those topics were not at the core of Christ's teachings, so you don't have to get them correct to be a Christian. But I don't see how someone can be devoted to Christ if they're missing His most important teaching, salvation.

Would you say EV teachings on grace and salvation are man made? If so, who are they devoted to? Who are they following? If someone is devoted to and follows man made teachings, I don't see how they could be Christian.

I didn't say the tribunal had to be a formal one; but every time an EV takes it upon himself or herself to compare someone else's doctrines to their own EV ones, and then declares that someone else Christian--or not--based upon how well the comparison stacks up, that is exactly gatekeeping.

I still don't see how that is gatekeeping. When someone says 'Mormons aren't Christian,' what gate are they closing? When they make that claim, what exactly are they keeping Mormons from?

As a matter of fact--yes, that's quite common. And it is almost always EV's who are doing the excluding.

Could you give an example? What kinds of discussions or conversations have Mormons been kept out of?

However, if EV's were to admit the clear fact that Mormons are Christians, it might have an impact upon what they do. For one thing, it would take a lot of the momentum out of anti-Mormon polemics, for which EV intolerance is the mainspring.

What if EVs maintained their stance that Mormons aren't Christian, but they became more diplomatic in their interactions. No protests, no lies or distortions and no books or videos saying you aren't Christian, but they still won't say you are Christian. How would you feel about that?

[MatthewG]

You guys are still going at it?

[justinmartyrjr]

Would I be allowed to be baptized if I did not answer all the question below in the prescribed manner? Would I be accepted into the church if I accepted only a portion of the list below?

Baptism Questions Preach My Gospel

1. Do you believe that God is our Eternal Father? Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of

God, the Savior and Redeemer of the world?

2. Do you believe the Church and gospel of Jesus Christ have been restored through the

Prophet Joseph Smith? Do you believe that [current Church President] is a prophet of God?

What does this mean to you?

3. What does it mean to you to repent? Do you feel that you have repented of your past

transgressions?

4. Have you ever committed a serious crime? If so, are you now on probation or parole? Have

you ever participated in an abortion? a homosexual relationship?

5. You have been taught that membership in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

includes living gospel standards. What do you understand of the following standards? Are

you willing to obey them?

a. The law of chastity, which prohibits any sexual relationship outside the bonds of a legal

marriage between a man and a woman.

b. The law of tithing.

c. The Word of Wisdom.

d. The Sabbath day, including partaking of the sacrament weekly and rendering service to

fellow members.

"1. Do you believe that God is our Eternal Father? Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of

God, the Savior and Redeemer of the world?"

JMJ: This thread being about "Why do Christians say Mormons are not Christians?" The first issue is again suggesting that all "Christians have to agree" when we know that they don't, but then allow for different branches to call themselves "Christians." #1 here was a topic that was argued about in historic Christianity, see the Ante-Nicene Fathers (the writings of the early Christian father, church leaders, scholars, etc. before 325 AD; then compare the writings & what was the main polemics during 325 AD & after in The Nicene & Post Nicene Fathers series.

Even early to later anti-Christians noted that Christians couldn't make up their minds as to if there's one God, three or many. They mocked the idea of God becoming a man in the body of Jesus that needed to sleep, eat, walk about from place to place, & do other things like ordinary men do. They were also aware of their beliefs in perfection & deification, calling it a "worn out myth," because the pagan mystery religions had their own versions of deification of man. Those who gave us the extra biblical & un-biblical creed at Nicene, also had their own versions of deification (becoming gods), too.

Celsus, early anti-Christian, 2nd century, was answered by Origen, of the 3rd century, in 8 books: "Origen Against Celsus," (The Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 4, Origen Against Celsus).

John P. Lundy, Monumental Christianity, NY: J W Bouton, 1876.

R. Joseph Hofmann, Celsus On the True Doctrine.

Robert L. Wilkens, The Christians As The Romans Saw Them.

"2. Do you believe the Church and gospel of Jesus Christ have been restored through the

Prophet Joseph Smith? Do you believe that [current Church President] is a prophet of God?"

Modern "Christianity" can't claim any prophets & apostles are producing additional scriptures, or spiritual gifts as the earliest Christians did. The later Christians of the 2nd through 4th centuries, noted the prophets & spiritual gifts were fading out of the church.

Anyone who has studied the legendization process of the Apostasy that went on in historic Christianity will have to say that Joseph Smith did restore what was believed & ritualistically performed earlier.

Pre-existence: This was argued over during 553 council of Constantinople, continued to become legends, while preserved in other areas in art works & early bible illustrations & creation dramas. Genesis A & B for example. In time, in other areas, the doctrine became so legendized that the devil & fallen angels took on fairy tail type aspects & imagery. (Want sources? I got tons of them!).

http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user...artyrJr&p=r

Christ preaching the gospel to the spirits in prison:

This was also argued over during the 2nd century. Legendized in later centuries, but preserved to a certain extent, without it's ritualistic type of descent (baptism for the dead), in thousands of art works, some creedal statements, & iconography, the Anastasis. The temple type hand grips depicted to in other realm travel, as souls are lifted up by different types of hand & wrist grips, in being harrowed from hell, (limbo, hades, hell, purgatory, the abyss, the underworld, etc.).

Justin Martyr, A.D. 110-165, claims that the Jews had 'cut out' passages from Esdras, & from "the sayings of Jeremiah." It reads: "The Lord God remembered His dead people of Israel who lay in the graves; and He descended to preach to them His own salvation."

Irenaeus 120-202 A.D. cites this passage a number of times in defense of his own particular interpretations of the doctrine of Christ's descent into the spirit world. Irenaeus says it's from from Isaiah, & Jeremiah, ANF 1:234-5, note 1 on p.235, & 451, 493-4, 506, 510, & 560

Temple work became fraternalized in the different church branches masses, liturgical dramas, coronation ceremonies & crownings, Monk Orders, Knight orders & eventually freemasonry.

Becoming gods, deification, theosis, perfection:

This was argued over in heated councils' dialectic polemics in 400, & in later centuries. It was the motive for becoming a martyr, monk & to go off into some isolated place to seek "Christian moral perfection," where the temptations of the world would be less.

http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/latter...4IQ0I2QS056K98I

http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/latter...056K98I/post119

5. The early Christian doctrine of Christ's visits to other nations, (used in earlier centuries to answer the early anti-Christian charges, that "the Christians' god" neglects other nations, & pre-Christian time peoples); this doctrine & belief was legendized into Santa Claus' annual Christmas eve rounds.

http://covertcosmiccruisers.com/

http://covertcosmiccruisers.com/page2.php

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?...905#post4007905

6. The spiritual gifts & leadership rankings, (Eph 4:7-14), & spiritual gifts that ended up producing "scripture" a non-closed canon, faded out quickly to be replaced by the dialectic arts of clever debating methods to hash out different "creeds" & "dogmas!" When, this wasn't how the earliest Christian settled issues by revelation through church leaders. Even with the spiritual gifts in tact in the earliest Church, they still had problems dealing with different issues that tended to divide them, (Gal. 1 & 2).

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=501EADD1AAEA20B8

Still, we know that the restoration was NOT all at once! But line upon line, here a little, there a little, as the doctrines developed & were introduced. The doctrine of deification was hinted to at first, & caused a stir, some early LDS members freaked out over Joseph Smith hinting to this in earlier versions of the D&C. Then again, when he expounds on it during the King Foll. Dis., era.

Other aspects of the restoration had to be slowly fed the early saints too, such as the "Word of Wisdom," (especially with smoking & drinking early LDS saints, including Joseph Smith, who was known to have a beer now & then). Despite this, we now see evidence for D&C 89 in the "conspiring men," warnings of this, now fulfilled in our understandings of how big tobacco companies continue to conspire to sale their deadly tobacco products, & how the "war on drugs," is filled with corruption & conspiracies too!

http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/latter...GEAIN2H30/post8

And the fact that Joseph Smith prophetically predicted the current events we are now seeing shockingly coming to pass, that the "constitution would hang by a thread," is one in many evidences that the spiritual gifts were restored & that Joseph Smith used them!

http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/latter...QK1L6O2UCG372A9

http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/latter...FKTRO1R01LT9N2Q

http://www.libertyvideos.org/endgame.htm

Also, the temple endowment had to be slowly fed the saints, as the milk before the meat. This same process happens in the New Testament too & in early Christianity, were the new converts weren't taken through the "mysteries," until after a 2 year testing, study & preparation period of time to see if they weren't "spies" sent by anti-Christians, & to test if they would remain worthy.

I think that Joseph saw in masonry a intro to the restored version, that was later revealed. He could have used the masonic fraternalized version of the early Christian mysteries, as a stepping stone for the early LDS members. In order to help them become more ready to accept; & be more readily accustomed to ceremonies & symbolic ritualistic imagery & typologies of Christ wounds, resurrection, & ascension, etc., as contained in the Temple endowment. Thus made ready, the early LDS could have been more acceptable towards gaining a testimony of the restored version, saying of masonry, here's the fraternalized "apostate" version of the temple deposited in masonry, (having set up lodges & practicing masonry in early LDS history). But now, here's the restored version, given by revelation as part of the on going restoration of all things.

http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=JustinMartyrJr

It was a common practice & still is, for the early to later Christians, in the conversion process, to use the similarities of the different cultures they go into, to bring acceptabilities about of the Christian versions'. This was how many pagans were Christianized during the early centuries, plus how many Mormon missionaries help start out with common or similar grounds of beliefs, when preaching the restored versions. For example, there's legends of a great white God who appeared to your forefathers, here's the restored version of those legends, the actual account as contained in the Book of Mormon.

That restored version is closer to what we now find in historic biblical early Christianity than any other "parallel" the critics might attempt to claim the temple endowment was "derived from."

http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/latter...5JI12HC54/post4

http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/latter...5JI12HC54/post6

http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/latter...UP1C794BJBREDD6

Thus, how you answer the questions listed, should be taken in light of the testimony of history & the spiritual gifts now restored.

How modern "Christians" who crusade against the LDS answer these questions, or continue to deal with LDS people & their faith, needs to be examined to in light of our understanding of how the early anti-Christian methods of disinformation & propaganda seem to have also been "restored" in anti-Mormon "Christian" vilification of the LDS temple & LDS doctrines & beliefs.

http://pacumenispages.yuku.com/topic/4588/...rn-critics.html

[emeliza]

You guys are still going at it?

I think only because the thread hasn't been completely claimed by the SSCE and I guess it really bugs some people that we can't be considered 'Christian' to them.

[consiglieri]

I think only because the thread hasn't been completely claimed by the SSCE and I guess it really bugs some people that we can't be considered 'Christian' to them.

"Christian" is the secret meaning behind the "C" in SSCE.

[consiglieri]

I think only because the thread hasn't been completely claimed by the SSCE and I guess it really bugs some people that we can't be considered 'Christian' to them.

Or, with Emeliza as the acting secretary, it is possible the "C" stands for "Cute."

[emeliza]

"Christian" is the secret meaning behind the "C" in SSCE.

Oh crap, I am in the wrong group again. It reminds me of the time I went to join the thespian club at school (drama nerd that I was). Just a reminder to always read the full name of the club. Boy was my face red.....

[Calm]

"1. Do you believe that God is our Eternal Father? Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of

God, the Savior and Redeemer of the world?"

JMJ: This thread being about "Why do Christians say Mormons are not Christians?" The first issue is again suggesting that all "Christians have to agree" when we know that they don't, but then allow for different branches to call themselves "Christians." #1 here was a topic that was argued about in historic Christianity, see the Ante-Nicene Fathers (the writings of the early Christian father, church leaders, scholars, etc. before 325 AD; then compare the writings & what was the main polemics during 325 AD & after in The Nicene & Post Nicene Fathers series.

Lot of info in that post, man. I think it would go better if you broke it into smaller chunks to digest rather than all at once so we can take our time savouring it.

[nathansoz]

what do you guys think of this?

Are Mormon's Christian

From an evangelical's standpoint, it provides a pretty convincing argument.

[Akboy]

I've read a few articles by Mormons on this subject and a question popped up.

As I understand it, Mormons are opposed to EVs use their own definition of 'Christian' and then criticize other groups for not being Christian. Mormons don't do this with 'Christian,' but don't they do it with other terms?

Mormons use their own definition of 'hell' and then criticize other groups for not following them. They do the same thing with 'grace,' 'faith' and 'prophets.' Of course they aren't as vocal about these definitions as EVs are about 'Christian,' but it still seems to be the official position of the Church that other groups are wrong about these topics. So if you're fine with saying that with these terms, then why can't it be said about Christian? Why are Mormons fine with openly using their definitions for many terms, but openly oppose using their definition of Christian?

[Glenn101]

I've read a few articles by Mormons on this subject and a question popped up.

As I understand it, Mormons are opposed to EVs use their own definition of 'Christian' and then criticize other groups for not being Christian. Mormons don't do this with 'Christian,' but don't they do it with other terms?

Mormons use their own definition of 'hell' and then criticize other groups for not following them. They do the same thing with 'grace,' 'faith' and 'prophets.' Of course they aren't as vocal about these definitions as EVs are about 'Christian,' but it still seems to be the official position of the Church that other groups are wrong about these topics. So if you're fine with saying that with these terms, then why can't it be said about Christian? Why are Mormons fine with openly using their definitions for many terms, but openly oppose using their definition of Christian?

And what does it all really matter? Won't God be the judge after all?

Glenn (A Latter-Day Saint)

[Akboy]

And what does it all really matter? Won't God be the judge after all?

Glenn (A Latter-Day Saint)

It certainly seems to matter to Mormons, especially Mormons on this board. That's why this thread was started and so many Mormons have complained about EVs using their definition of Christian. If it doesn't matter that much, we do you guys get so bothered by it?

Yes, of course God will be the judge. I've been in many doctrinal debates and no one has denied the idea that God will be the judge. But that doesn't mean we should just keep to ourselves and not discuss any of this.

[Log]

As I understand it, Mormons are opposed to EVs use their own definition of 'Christian' and then criticize other groups for not being Christian. Mormons don't do this with 'Christian,' but don't they do it with other terms?

EVs don't own the word 'Christian'. Most other folks use the word 'Christian' just like the dictionary says:

1. of, pertaining to, or derived from Jesus Christ or His teachings: a Christian faith.

2. of, pertaining to, believing in, or belonging to the religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ: Spain is a Christian country.

3. of or pertaining to Christians: many Christian deaths in the Crusades.

4. exhibiting a spirit proper to a follower of Jesus Christ; Christlike: She displayed true Christian charity.

5. decent; respectable: They gave him a good Christian burial.

6. human; not brutal; humane: Such behavior isn't Christian.

â??noun 7. a person who believes in Jesus Christ; adherent of Christianity.

8. a person who exemplifies in his or her life the teachings of Christ: He died like a true Christian.

9. a member of any of certain Protestant churches, as the Disciples of Christ and the Plymouth Brethren.

10. the hero of Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress.

11. a male given name.

When EVs denigrate the Christianity of Mormonism outside of the EV culture, they are using an idiosyncratic definition of 'Christian' without informing their intended audience of the specialized meaning they have attached to the word, so the audience will therefore take the word 'Christian' at face (dictionary) value. EVs are engaged in well-poisoning, pure and simple.

[Billy]

EVs don't own the word 'Christian'. Most other folks use the word 'Christian' just like the dictionary says:

You are right. Just like the Mormons don't own the term Mormon. Anybody should be able to call himself a Mormon, and you should not be the one who decides who is and who is not a Mormon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon

Mormon is a term used to describe the adherents, practitioners, followers or constituents of Mormonism. The term most often refers to a member of the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church), which is commonly called the Mormon Church. The LDS Church believes that "Mormon" should properly be applied only to its members. However, the term is often used more broadly to describe any individual or group that believes in the Book of Mormon, including other Latter Day Saint groups. According to the Book of Mormon, Mormon is the name of the prophet who compiled the book of scripture known as the Book of Mormon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_denom..._Saint_movement

List of sects in the Latter Day Saint movement

[Log]

Wikipedia is an inappropriately biased source on many topics, this being one of them.

The dictionary, however, which lists how words are actually used, gives us this.

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This

Mor