Why Do Christians Say Mormons Are Not Christian?

[Tanyan]

They keep using that phrase. I don't think it means what they think it means.Have you seen the thread I started to discuss the absolute minimal requirements to be a Christian?

That phrase is probably a rewrite of some past LDS leaders who did state that Salvation is "Earned", coolrok in his posts gives those quotes adinfinentum.

[Billy]

Where does sanctification come in?

Besides you set up a false dichotomy. There are more than two choices, for instance, justification by grace AND works is also a valid choice.

Salvation is strictly by grace and not works according to the EV position. At that point in time that person is considered perfect in the eyes of God, not because he is perfect, but because Christ is perfect and his perfection is placed on us in the sight of God, some would use term justification by faith. When a person first becomes a believer, that person is not going to be anywhere near the long term believer in his walk with Christ. What I mean by that is the new convert is often still clinging to his old ways. The sanctification process takes place after a person is saved by faith. This means that through time God works through the person via the Holy Spirit to work out the junk in a believers life. This means that a long term believer will be closer to follow God's commandments than a new believer, but both are still seem as perfect in God's eyes and both will go to heaven if they died at that point in time (see parable Matthew 20:1-16). Sanctification is a process that I view as God changing our desires so that we do things that are right because we want to do them, not out of obligation to do them, these are the fruit in a person's life. I liken this to someone who is on a diet. You can force yourself to not eat something, but deep down you real want to eat that item. Compare this to someone who has no desire to eat a particular item of food. One is by strict willpower and the other is a change in desire to no longer want something in your life.

[Tanyan]

Salvation is strictly by grace and not works according to the EV position. At that point in time that person is considered perfect in the eyes of God, not because he is perfect, but because Christ is perfect and his perfection is placed on us in the sight of God, some would use term justification by faith. When a person first becomes a believer, that person is not going to be anywhere near the long term believer in his walk with Christ. What I mean by that is the new convert is often still clinging to his old ways. The sanctification process takes place after a person is saved by faith. This means that through time God works through the person via the Holy Spirit to work out the junk in a believers life. This means that a long term believer will be closer to follow God's commandments than a new believer, but both are still seem as perfect in God's eyes and both will go to heaven if they died at that point in time (see parable Matthew 20:1-16). Sanctification is a process that I view as God changing our desires so that we do things that are right because we want to do them, not out of obligation to do them, these are the fruit in a person's life. I liken this to someone who is on a diet. You can force yourself to not eat something, but deep down you real want to eat that item. Compare this to someone who has no desire to eat a particular item of food. One is by strict willpower and the other is a change in desire to no longer want something in your life.

So is this like the Anchient "Biblical" Saints Faith ?. http://www.biblepages.web.surftown.se/eb10b.htm

Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Tanyan]

Grace is activated and made alive by The work of Faith - 1 Thess 1:3, which was done the same way by any N.T Believer/Christian/Disciple as found in the N.T. Tanyan.

[urroner]

That phrase is probably a rewrite of some past LDS leaders who did state that Salvation is "Earned", coolrok in his posts gives those quotes adinfinentum.

I guess it depends upon ones definition of "salvation." In LDSism, salvation, depending upon how it's defined can either be a gift or earnt and I think that this is somewhat of a stumbling block in how LDSers and EVers understand each other. I have tried explaining how we LDSers define salvation, but more often than not I am interrupted by the EVer telling me how wrong I am so I hardly ever get to finish the definition. Usually when I do get to finish, the EVer will say that we really aren't as far apart as he previously thought we were, maybe in the same book, but not on the same page. I have no problem with that.

So is this like the Anchient "Biblical" Saints Faith ?. http://www.biblepages.web.surftown.se/eb10b.htm Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

T-man, the word is "ancient."

[Tanyan]

I guess it depends upon ones definition of "salvation." In LDSism, salvation, depending upon how it's defined can either be a gift or earnt and I think that this is somewhat of a stumbling block in how LDSers and EVers understand each other. I have tried explaining how we LDSers define salvation, but more often than not I am interrupted by the EVer telling me how wrong I am so I hardly ever get to finish the definition. Usually when I do get to finish, the EVer will say that we really aren't as far apart as he previously thought we were, maybe in the same book, but not on the same page. I have no problem with that.T-man, the word is "ancient."

OH be that all EV thought as such of us !. . Tanyan.

[Tanyan]

I guess it depends upon ones definition of "salvation." In LDSism, salvation, depending upon how it's defined can either be a gift or earnt and I think that this is somewhat of a stumbling block in how LDSers and EVers understand each other. I have tried explaining how we LDSers define salvation, but more often than not I am interrupted by the EVer telling me how wrong I am so I hardly ever get to finish the definition. Usually when I do get to finish, the EVer will say that we really aren't as far apart as he previously thought we were, maybe in the same book, but not on the same page. I have no problem with that.T-man, the word is "ancient."

I like "H"s .

[Billy]

I guess it depends upon ones definition of "salvation." In LDSism, salvation, depending upon how it's defined can either be a gift or earnt and I think that this is somewhat of a stumbling block in how LDSers and EVers understand each other.

If a man was stabbed and had 10 minutes to live, and you were standing next to that man, and he asks you that he wants to go to heaven (Celestial Kingdom), he tells you that he will do anything that you ask him to do. What would you tell him to do so that he can live with God again in the Celestial Kingdom?

[consiglieri]

soren,

Thanks â?¦ good catch, I was in a hurry â?¦ it should have been â??distinctâ?.

And thus Johnny narrowly averts eternal damnation.

What's your favorite color?

Red. No, blue!

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[CQUIRK]

If a man was stabbed and had 10 minutes to live, and you were standing next to that man, and he asks you that he wants to go to heaven (Celestial Kingdom), he tells you that he will do anything that you ask him to do. What would you tell him to do so that he can live with God again in the Celestial Kingdom?

Depends on how the man has lived his life. And there's also Baptism for the Dead.

At least he won't go to Hell if he was a non-christian or non-LDS, and died that way too.

[Billy]

Depends on how the man has lived his life. And there's also Baptism for the Dead.

At least he won't go to Hell if he was a non-christian or non-LDS, and died that way too.

So there is not much you could do for that man other than let him die both physically and spiritually?

[Flyonthewall]

If a man was stabbed and had 10 minutes to live, and you were standing next to that man, and he asks you that he wants to go to heaven (Celestial Kingdom), he tells you that he will do anything that you ask him to do. What would you tell him to do so that he can live with God again in the Celestial Kingdom?

There is nothing else he can do. There is no deathbed repentance. He lived his life and will be judged by what he did in relation to what he knew. God will judge his life, and his life will determine where he ends up.

[CQUIRK]

So there is not much you could do for that man other than let him die both physically and spiritually?

At least he'll have a better afterlife then in the EV belief, if he was a non-Christian. Even if he accepted Christ at the last minute- if the man was a really bad person, like a child molester, he still can't make it to the Celestial Kingdom.

[Flyonthewall]

So there is not much you could do for that man other than let him die both physically and spiritually?

Everyone dies physically. Whether someone dies spiritually is up to the individual. I can have no effect on whether or not he dies spirituallly. I can teach him, and encourage him, but the individual must do what is necessary to keep from dying spiritually.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

If a man was stabbed and had 10 minutes to live, and you were standing next to that man, and he asks you that he wants to go to heaven (Celestial Kingdom), he tells you that he will do anything that you ask him to do. What would you tell him to do so that he can live with God again in the Celestial Kingdom?

We need qualifiers.

Was the man a child molester?

Was he Hitler?

Was he a good person with his heart in the right place and perhaps was misseled?

In other words Billy, True repentance doesnt come at the death bed. it come far before that.

If Hitler confessed Jesus, and said Jesus I beleive you are my savor I doubt he would get a free pass.

But since I am not the Judge I still couldnt say.

We Know that King David didnt get a pass on the murder of Uriah. the Bible says he was in hell, till the up most penny is paid.

[Billy]

Even if he accepted Christ at the last minute- if the man was a really bad person, like a child molester, he still can't make it to the Celestial Kingdom.

I will even agree to your stipulation, a really good person but not Christian or LDS.

If the person was a really good person but not a LDS member, and still had 10 minutes to live, what could you do for that person to assure him entrance into the Celestial Kingdom (without reliance on works etc in the spirit world)?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I will even agree to your stipulation, a really good person but not Christian or LDS.

If the person was a really good person but not a LDS member, and still had 10 minutes to live, what could you do for that person to assure him entrance into the Celestial Kingdom (without reliance on works etc in the spirit world)?

Really nothing as you and I are not the judge.

Would could start with Faith and repentance, then go into Baptism.

faith would be about the only place you get if he had only 10 mins.

[jwhitlock]

I know that the title of the thread is "Replying to Why Do Christians Say Mormons Are Not Christian?", but I don't think that I have ever said that Mormon's are not Christians on this thread.

However, your posts bear a striking bias in that direction.

I agree with DCP, that this is trivial argument because it depends on the definition of the term Christian and who gets to define the word. So until we ALL can agree on a definition of the term Christian, nobody will agree with who is and who is not a Christian.

Then obviously, we'd better not label anyone as a "Christian".

Probably a better title for this thread would be "Why do Christians say Mormons are not SAVED and Vice Versa?"

There's no "vice versa" to it.

But why stop with the EV viewpoint that Mormons aren't saved? Why not also include why Mormons are all going to hell, why a Mormon can't have any kind of relationship with God, why Mormon doctrine is 100% wrong? You see, "Mormon's aren't Christian" is quite a bit more encompassing and takes all of this prejudices into account. That's why some EVs find it so handy.

[jwhitlock]

We need qualifiers.

Was the man a child molester?

Was he Hitler?

Was he a good person with his heart in the right place and perhaps was misseled?

In other words Billy, True repentance doesnt come at the death bed. it come far before that.

If Hitler confessed Jesus, and said Jesus I beleive you are my savor I doubt he would get a free pass.

But since I am not the Judge I still couldnt say.

We Know that King David didnt get a pass on the murder of Uriah. the Bible says he was in hell, till the up most penny is paid.

Godwin's law violation.

Consig's not going to get post 666 after all.

[Billy]

But why stop with the EV viewpoint that Mormons aren't saved? Why not also include why Mormons are all going to hell, why a Mormon can't have any kind of relationship with God, why Mormon doctrine is 100% wrong? You see, "Mormon's aren't Christian" is quite a bit more encompassing and takes all of this prejudices into account. That's why some EVs find it so handy.

This is a two way street. You have no problem banishing non LDS who do not accept the gospel in this life or the next to live an eternity WITHOUT God, but then turn around and complain about it when we are saying basically the same thing. We may call it different things, but in both cases it is an eternity without God.

[ttribe]

This is a two way street. You have no problem banishing non LDS who do not accept the gospel in this life or the next to live an eternity WITHOUT God, but then turn around and complain about it when we are saying basically the same thing. We may call it different things, but it is an eternity without God.

Except that one involves fire, brimstone, and living with Satan for eternity whereas the other involves a degree of glory which exceeds anything imaginable here on Earth; so, I guess you're right - they're the "same". You have this habit of not telling the whole story because it would soften the blow of your argument.

[Billy]

Except that one involves fire, brimstone, and living with Satan for eternity whereas the other involves a degree of glory which exceeds anything imaginable here on Earth; so, I guess you're right - they're the "same". You have this habit of not telling the whole story because it would soften the blow of your argument.

So you don't believe that nonbelievers will pay for their sins in hell before they get a degree of glory?

[urroner]

So you don't believe that nonbelievers will pay for their sins in hell before they get a degree of glory?

Remember, in LDSism, sometimes "this life" includes everything from birth to before the resurrection.

[Akboy]

I doubt that some of our EV critics would support taht definition.

So what does it mean to believe Billy?

Hoops?

Akboy?

"Believing JESUS is the same as Obeying JESUS." I think it's a bad way to word it, but after reading that link you quoted, I agree with the belief behind it. Modern culture has changed the term 'believe' to just acceptance of something as true. When Jesus was talking about belief, the term meant something that changes how someone thinks and behaves. If believing in Jesus meant following Jesus' teaching and example. So you couldn't truly believe in Him unless you obey His teachings.

But I don't like the wording because it sounds like it can be easily confused. If someone hears that and hears you need to believe Jesus to be saved, they might think they have to obey all His teachings to be saved. But that's not what the message says. You only need a genuine belief, one that will produce works, to be saved. You don't need to prove your belief to anyone because God knows your heart and your belief.

[urroner]

But I don't like the wording because it sounds like it can be easily confused. If someone hears that and hears you need to believe Jesus to be saved, they might think they have to obey all His teachings to be saved. But that's not what the message says. You only need a genuine belief, one that will produce works, to be saved. You don't need to prove your belief to anyone because God knows your heart and your belief.

I know several people who have a "genuine belief" in God, but they don't have faith in Him, but if one must have genuine faith, on that will produce works, to be saved, then one must believe that works are important in ones salvation.