Why Do Christians Say Mormons Are Not Christian?

[urroner]

So you don't believe what you wrote above then?

Ever heard of sarcasm?

I love mirroring back a person's words to him/her, with a similar attitude, and seeing how they react. This one time, a "True Christian" got all upset with me when I did it and, when he told me off and how ignorant I was, I simply said "I thought you said you were a Christian and therefore you should be trying to be Christ like in your words and your deeds and I was just trying to be like you since you are trying to be like Christ." For some reason, he still didn't appreciate that. I finally asked him if he believed in the Golden Rule and he said he did, so I just said that I was doing unto him what he had done unto me. Then I asked him if I should treat him and his beliefs with respect when he refuses to treat me and mine with no respect; should I, a non-true Christian live a higher standard than him, a true Christian? Talk about lead balloons.

[Billy]

What you just quoted from the Gospel Principles manual simply highlights the natural steps that follow faith in Christ. Nothing I have said is inconsistent; you simply continue to fail to acknowledge that we do believe faith in Christ is FOUNDATIONAL to everything and that without it everything else fails by glibly referring to us as a works-based theology. This labeling on your part is a gross oversimplification and is inherently dishonest.

If you repent (turn away from your sin and towards Christ) and placed your faith in Christ as your personal Savior, can you go to the Celestial Kingdom without doing anything else?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Would I be allowed to be baptized if I did not answer all the question below in the prescribed manner? Would I be accepted into the church if I accepted only a portion of the list below?

Baptism Questions Preach My Gospel

1. Do you believe that God is our Eternal Father? Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of

God, the Savior and Redeemer of the world?

2. Do you believe the Church and gospel of Jesus Christ have been restored through the

Prophet Joseph Smith? Do you believe that [current Church President] is a prophet of God?

What does this mean to you?

3. What does it mean to you to repent? Do you feel that you have repented of your past

transgressions?

4. Have you ever committed a serious crime? If so, are you now on probation or parole? Have

you ever participated in an abortion? a homosexual relationship?

5. You have been taught that membership in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

includes living gospel standards. What do you understand of the following standards? Are

you willing to obey them?

a. The law of chastity, which prohibits any sexual relationship outside the bonds of a legal

marriage between a man and a woman.

b. The law of tithing.

c. The Word of Wisdom.

d. The Sabbath day, including partaking of the sacrament weekly and rendering service to

fellow members.

There is room for interpretation on some of these and you know it.

Were in the recommend are you asked if you believe that God has a body of flesh and bone?

Were does it say that you need to believe that Jesus and God are 2 separte people?

Were does it ask if you believe the bible to be inerrant and the only word of God?

Were does it ask if you believe that Jesus and Satan are borthers?

I seem to be missing these.

Some of the otheres there is no getting around.

With the exeption of number 2, what is the problem with these questions?

I swear you are on the virge of choking on a camel.

[johnny]

Anijen

johnny for all your "Ignatius would disagree with Mormons." You are placing yourself into the mind of him, which is impossible. You or no one else can say what he would or would not disagree with on early Christianity viewed from modern perspective. We can only go by what he wrote and taking all not bits and pieces we can then gather somewhat of an idea of his view but no one can say with a fact what he would disagree with or what he would agree with. From his writings all of them not the bits and pieces you seem to select from, but from the whole his writings would support LDS theology and at the very least not diminish it.

Do you know of any of Ignatius writings that would support the Mormon teaching of â??three Godsâ? or the Mormon teaching that the Son was a created angel like Satan before the incarnation.

[ttribe]

If you repent (turn away from your sin and towards Christ) and placed your faith in Christ as your personal Savior, can you go to the Celestial Kingdom without doing anything else?

I don't know - it's up to God to decide how and to whom the Atonement is applied. I'm not God and I'm not so presumptuous as to believe that I have the right to make such judgments about people. However, I do know this - He expects me to keep His commandments and to do so out of love for Him.

[Billy]

Ever heard of sarcasm?

I love mirroring back a person's words to him/her, with a similar attitude, and seeing how they react. This one time, a "True Christian" got all upset with me when I did it and, when he told me off and how ignorant I was, I simply said "I thought you said you were a Christian and therefore you should be trying to be Christ like in your words and your deeds and I was just trying to be like you since you are trying to be like Christ." For some reason, he still didn't appreciate that. I finally asked him if he believed in the Golden Rule and he said he did, so I just said that I was doing unto him what he had done unto me. Then I asked him if I should treat him and his beliefs with respect when he refuses to treat me and mine with no respect; should I, a non-true Christian live a higher standard than him, a true Christian? Talk about lead balloons.

I am not sure if jwhitlock's original post was sarcasm or it was what he really thought. You may be right that it was sarcasm, but when I first read it I thought that he was being serious and he was listing true differences that divide us, which I have been pointing out in some of my posts.

[LeSellers]

Do you know of any of Ignatius writings that would support the ... Mormon teaching that the Son was a created angel like Satan before the incarnation.

You keep using terms that are wholly unfamiliar to me.

Where do you get the idea that we LDSs teach "that the Son was a created angel"?

Lehi

[urroner]

So, which one of you fine people who insist that us LDSers aren't Mormons are willing to step up and take my challenge I posted some time ago? Throwing out generalized statements and Bible verses without explanation is fine, but very, very unconvincing. Use of outside sources is fine, but they have to be based upon biblical scripture. With all the surliness going on around here, it should be easy for several of you to do it.

List Of Requirments To Be A True Christian, Please develop a precise list based upon the Bible only

[ttribe]

I am not sure if jwhitlock's original post was sarcasm or it was what he really thought. You may be right that it was sarcasm, but when I first read it I thought that he was being serious and he was listing true differences that divide us, which I have been pointing out in some of my posts.

No. He was using your method of argument to demonstrate the hollowness of reaching conclusions on salvation based on broad generalizations. Hence, his use of the term "games".

[urroner]

If you repent (turn away from your sin and towards Christ) and placed your faith in Christ as your personal Savior, can you go to the Celestial Kingdom without doing anything else?

Since the word "faith" in not a verb in the English language, though I have heard that in some languages, there is a verb for faith, but if it was a verb in the English language, would it be a passive or an active verb. Would it imply one of the following:

1. Something being done to us.
   
2. We do something on our own.
   
3. All of the above.
   

I'd say that it would be an active verb and 3.

I think that too many Christians believe that faith and belief are synonyms.

[ttribe]

How do we receive salvation? We are saved by faith. First, we must hear the gospelâ??the good news of Jesusâ?? death and resurrection (Ephesians 1:13). Then, we must believeâ??fully trust the Lord Jesus (Romans 1:16). This involves repentance, a changing of mind about sin and Christ (Acts 3:19), and calling on the name of the Lord (Romans 10:9-10, 13).

A definition of the Christian doctrine of salvation would be â??The spiritual, eternal deliverance which God immediately grants to those who accept His conditions of repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus.â? Salvation is available in Jesus alone (John 14:6; Acts 4:12), and is dependant on God alone for provision, assurance, and security.

Based on this then, I'm a Christian! Interesting that I see nothing about any of the other requirements you keep trying to put out there.

[Tanyan]

We are Saved by Charis [Grace - which is unmerited favor so as we can be Saved Temporaly and Spiritualy] through Pistis [Faith - which when accessed and made alive in us allows the free gift to cleanse and cover our sins this is done by way of True Faith, Repenting, keeping the commandments as a way of saying thank you to GOD and Jesus for what has been done for us].

In His Debt/Grace Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[jwhitlock]

So you don't believe what you wrote above then?

What part of "game" didn't you understand in my post?

The point is not whether there are doctrinal differences - as you are so willing to point out in your posts - but whether the rationalization of those doctrinal differences justifies the generalization that Mormons aren't Christians.

Hint: It doesn't.

PS Hint: I am not so presumptuous to make a claim that EVs are not Christians because we have doctrinal differences. I don't do this because it is wrong to make such a generalization about a group without knowing much about the individuals in the group.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I think that too many Christians believe that faith and belief are synonyms.

This appears to be the problem that I have seen. All you ahve to do is believe.

What ever believing means.

[Tanyan]

We are saved by Grace Alone through Faith Alone, the formula is absolutly 100 % correct however only if you have the correct understanding of the concept of Faith as used anchiently. .

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Tanyan]

This appears to be the problem that I have seen. All you ahve to do is believe.

What ever believing means.

Believing JESUS is the same as Obeying JESUS see http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/believing.htm

I have even heard the great Billy Graham at his revivals state that belief/believing in JESUS is the same as obeying JESUS .

Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Doctor Steuss]

soren,

Thanks â?¦ good catch, I was in a hurry â?¦ it should have been â??distinctâ?.

This may just be semantics, but...

dis

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Believing JESUS is the same as Obeying JESUS see http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/believing.htm

I have even heard the great Billy Graham at his revivals state that belief/believing in JESUS is the same as obeying JESUS .

Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

I doubt that some of our EV critics would support taht definition.

So what does it mean to believe Billy?

Hoops?

Akboy?

[Billy]

I don't know - it's up to God to decide how and to whom the Atonement is applied. I'm not God and I'm not so presumptuous as to believe that I have the right to make such judgments about people. However, I do know this - He expects me to keep His commandments and to do so out of love for Him.

I am not judging you, again I am trying to point out differences in our beliefs. You may be right, and I may be wrong.

1. Justification by grace

verses

2. Justification by works

[Tanyan]

I doubt that some of our EV critics would support taht definition.

So what does it mean to believe Billy?

Hoops?

Akboy?

Of course they would not because they did not live in that time period to understand the greek/cultural meaning of that word, which was all about action, bearing fruit, effort to serve GOD and man, taking care of there buisness as we would say today.

Tanyan.

[Tanyan]

I am not judging you, again I am trying to point out differences in our beliefs. You may be right, and I may be wrong.

1. Justification by grace

verses

2. Justification by works

To be Justified by Grace we need to accept it by Faith which is a work also -1Thess 1:3 and Labors of Love.

To br Justified by works is to show we want to stay in that covenant of Grace that we accepted and accessed that free gift of Grace in our life by true anchient Faith - pistis. Works do not declare us not guilty works show we want to be not guilty by way of JESUS CHRISTS AWESOMEAtonement/Sacrifice which is shown by Obediance/Sacrifice born out of Love for Jesus.

Tanyan.

[LeSellers]

I am not judging you, again I am trying to point out differences in our beliefs. You may be right, and I may be wrong.

1. Justification by grace

verses

2. Justification by works

So, where do you find the phrase "justification by works" in LDS writings?

Lehi

[urroner]

I am not judging you, again I am trying to point out differences in our beliefs. You may be right, and I may be wrong.

1. Justification by grace

verses

2. Justification by works

Where does sanctification come in?

Besides you set up a false dichotomy. There are more than two choices, for instance, justification by grace AND works is also a valid choice.

[Billy]

What part of "game" didn't you understand in my post?

The point is not whether there are doctrinal differences - as you are so willing to point out in your posts - but whether the rationalization of those doctrinal differences justifies the generalization that Mormons aren't Christians.

I know that the title of the thread is "Replying to Why Do Christians Say Mormons Are Not Christian?", but I don't think that I have ever said that Mormon's are not Christians on this thread. I agree with DCP, that this is trivial argument because it depends on the definition of the term Christian and who gets to define the word. So until we ALL can agree on a definition of the term Christian, nobody will agree with who is and who is not a Christian. Probably a better title for this thread would be "Why do Christians say Mormons are not SAVED and Vice Versa?"

[urroner]

So, where do you find the phrase "justification by works" in LDS writings?Lehi

They keep using that phrase. I don't think it means what they think it means.

I know that the title of the thread is "Replying to Why Do Christians Say Mormons Are Not Christian?", but I don't think that I have ever said that Mormon's are not Christians on this thread. I agree with DCP, that this is trivial argument because it depends on the definition of the term Christian and who gets to define the word. So until we ALL can agree on a definition of the term Christian, nobody will agree with who is and who is not a Christian. Probably a better title for this thread would be "Why do Christians say Mormons are not SAVED and Vice Versa?"

Have you seen the thread I started to discuss the absolute minimal requirements to be a Christian?