Michael Is Part Of The Trinity

[Garden Girl]

Hello Sargon...

While I disagree with you, I'm sure you're not alone in having personal views about various things... like this.

From the beginning we've been taught that the Holy Ghost has been sent by God the Father to this earth to minister to the spiritual needs of his children. The Holy Ghost is the great teacher and testifier of the gospel.

Joseph Smith taught that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost made an everlasting covenant before the organization of the earth, planning the progress and salvation of mankind. He taught that because of special assignments, they would be known as God the first, the creator; God the second, the Redeemer; and God the third, the witness or Testator. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 190; Principles and Practices of the Restored Gospel, pp 58-59)

Nowhere do I see that the Holy Ghost is an "office" that can be filled by anyone not embodied. The threefold mission of the Holy Ghost is to be a revelator of knowledge concerning the other members of the Godhead, a testator of the truthfulness of what he reveals, and a comforter to us as we journey on our path of the gospel. (TPJS 190).

Garden Girl

[charity's child]

Personal opinion, Adam/Michael is not the HG,but I have heard the theory before. Well, obviously, I've heard it before.

Whether he is or isn't, I don't think it matters. NETE.

Charity's Child

[captain-jack]

Oh man. I try really hard to catch these, no wonder I got a "D" in english. LOL

There's no 'D' in English. Geez, you are bad.

And I've never heard this before.

[grego]

I'm with Lightbearer, GG, John W, Drewm777 here.

I don't think Godhead members aret just "offices". It's not like prophet and counselors, and everyone gets called and released, changing with the times. The Holy Ghost is one real personage, just like the other two members of the godhead. JS's quote seems to make that quite explicit.

[MorningStar]

This is interesting:

â??Where will the Lord come when he comes again?â?

Arthur R. Bassett, â??Q&A: Questions and Answers,â? New Era, Sept. 1983, 48â??49

Answer/ Arthur R. Bassett

The logistics of the Saviorâ??s second coming have not been given to us in clear detail. However, he has given us a general sketch, outlining some of the major events, culminating in the establishment of his millennial reign. From this outline it becomes evident that the major event that we call his second coming will be prefaced by other appearances by the Master.

Some of these preliminary appearances have already occurred. The first of these, to the Prophet Joseph Smith in the Sacred Grove, is well known (see JSâ??H 1: 16â??20). Another among the better-known appearances of the Savior is described in detail as it occurred on April 3, 1836, following the dedication of the temple in Kirtland, Ohio (see D&C 110:1â??10).

The next slated appearance of the Master seems to be one that will occur at a gathering of priesthood leaders at Adam-ondi-Ahman in Missouri. This conference, involving all ages of the earth, is described by the Prophet Joseph Smith in this way:

â??Daniel in his seventh chapter speaks of the Ancient of Days; he means the oldest man, our Father Adam, Michael, he will call his children together and hold a council with them to prepare them for the coming of the Son of Man. He (Adam) is the father of the human family, and presides over the spirits of all men, and all that have had the keys must stand before him in this grand council. â?¦ The Son of Man stands before him, and there is given him glory and dominion. Adam delivers up his stewardship to Christ, that which was delivered to him as holding the keys of the universe, but retains his standing as head of the human familyâ? (History of the Church, 3:386â??87).

By this act Christ becomes once again the lawful ruler of this world. He becomes the actual ruler by an exerting of his power. This power is first demonstrated, apparently, at a battle in Jerusalem when he comes as the long-anticipated Messiah of the Jewish nation. This event is recorded by the prophet Zechariah in these words:

â??For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

â??Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

â??And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valleyâ? (Zech. 14:2â??4).

After the Jews have fled into this valley and the wrath of the Lord has been poured out upon the wicked, the Jewish leaders will become aware of the marks of the crucifixion in the body of the Lord and acknowledge him as the historic Christ (see Zech. 13:6; see also D&C 45:51â??53).

All of this is in preparation, however, for that moment usually known as the Second Coming, an appearance that will be majestic and worldwide in its scope. However, I am not aware of any reference to the specific location of this return so far as a city or other geographical point is concerned. Those who record this event have been more enthralled with the majesty of the eventâ??the ushering in of the millennial reign, the binding of Satan, the destruction of the wicked, the resurrection of the just, the return of the city of Enoch. All of these events seem to take preference to the location in the minds of the recorders.

One might, with good reason, assume that his visit at this point would involve either Jerusalem of old or the New Jerusalem of the new world, or both, since both will be capitals for the millennial reign. The movements of the Savior are also not well documented during this millennial era. All we seem to know about this is a short statement by the Prophet Joseph Smith:

â??Christ and the resurrected Saints will reign over the earth during the thousand years. They will not probably dwell upon the earth, but will visit it when they please, or when it is necessary to govern itâ? (HC, 5:212).

Adam presides over our spirits? Hmmmm .....

[Sargon]

Some of the reasons I hypothesize blasphemously that Michael/Adam might be the H.G.:

1) We read much about Michael's activity in the pre-existence, about the service he performs for God, but nothing about the Holy Ghost

2) Michael was a key element in the creation of the world, the H.G. recieves no mention

3) We hear of the ressurrection and exaltation of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob; we hear of the translation of Enoch; we see the participation of Gabriel in earthly events(such as the annunciation); in short, we have an idea of the activity of the ancient patriarchs, except for Adam.

4) Adam-God theory makes a little more sense

5) It is fun to speculate

Call me heretical, disagree with me vehemently, but at least admit it is an intriguing possibility.

Sargon

[charity]

How is this possible? In light of the following:If the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam then how can Adam be the Holy Ghost?

This is my opinion. The Holy Ghost is an assignment or calling. He can be different people. At the time of the creation, that position was filled by Michael/Adam. During Adam's mortality, the position was filled by someone else.

[redwave]

Some of the reasons I hypothesize blasphemously that Michael/Adam might be the H.G.:

1) We read much about Michael's activity in the pre-existence, about the service he performs for God, but nothing about the Holy Ghost

2) Michael was a key element in the creation of the world, the H.G. recieves no mention

3) We hear of the ressurrection and exaltation of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob; we hear of the translation of Enoch; we see the participation of Gabriel in earthly events(such as the annunciation); in short, we have an idea of the activity of the ancient patriarchs, except for Adam.

4) Adam-God theory makes a little more sense

5) It is fun to speculate

Call me heretical, disagree with me vehemently, but at least admit it is an intriguing possibility.

Sargon

Try this theory out. I believe Michael is part of the trinity because Michael is simply another name for Jesus.

[Sargon]

Try this theory out. I believe Michael is part of the trinity because Michael is simply another name for Jesus.

Discussions like these get all the lurkers out of the shadows sometimes. This is another interesting hypothesis, except I don't know why Jesus would offer sacrifices to himself. It conflicts too much with what I learn in the temple.

Sargon

[erichard]

Some of the reasons I hypothesize blasphemously that Michael/Adam might be the H.G.:

...Call me heretical, disagree with me vehemently, but at least admit it is an intriguing possibility.

Sargon

The revelation that Adam is the Holy Ghost is probably the most important revelation in the non-LDS Second Book of Commandments.

The idea that the Holy Ghost is a spirit that has never had a body "makes reason stare."

Do you know any 2 year olds ready to be the Holy Spirit of Promise, and the Spirit of Truth and the Comforter? Yet a 2 year old has more experience understanding the flesh than a spirit never born.

The idea that Adam was faithful to his Savior on a previous earth, was then the father of our spirits, and co-created this earth for his spirit childen, then at death became the Holy Ghost for his spirit children is a much more intelligent concept.

Richard

2BC Excerpts on Adam, Jehovah and God

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

There's no 'D' in English. Geez, you are bad.

And I've never heard this before.

Oh crap! I admit it, I failed ok. ( Not really, no one is paying attention any way) I just cant win.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Discussions like these get all the lurkers out of the shadows sometimes. This is another interesting hypothesis, except I don't know why Jesus would offer sacrifices to himself. It conflicts too much with what I learn in the temple.

Sargon

I have to confess, this isnt what I had expected, however this is very interesting and I love the comments. THis has turned in to quite the discussion and speculation. THis is actually a good thing I think.

[maklelan]

Easy. H.G. is an office, and can be temporarily filled by anyone not possessing a body of flesh and bones.

Like I said, I don't have a solid testimony, but for me everything points to it.

Sargon

You better watch it or the Mormon Thought Police are gonna come stick a cage full of hungry rats on your face. Everyone knows there's no independent thought in Mormonism. We all believe exactly the same thing, and it's all in the Seer. Why else would anti-Mormons quote it all the time?

[redwave]

Discussions like these get all the lurkers out of the shadows sometimes. This is another interesting hypothesis, except I don't know why Jesus would offer sacrifices to himself. It conflicts too much with what I learn in the temple.

Sargon

A LURKER? I have been a member here almost 7 months and have posted 47 times already! Thatâ??s almost 7 posts a month! Oh, I guess I am a lurker. I donâ??t even know how I got here in the first place. Anyway you mentioned you don't know why Jesus would offer sacrifices to himself? Are you saying Michael offers sacrifices?

Consider Jude verse 9 where Michael comes down and resurrects Moses. You believe angels can resurrect? I believe Satan exulted that he had succeeded in causing Moses to sin against God. For this transgression, Moses came under the dominion of death. If he had continued faithful, and his life had not been marred with that one transgression, in failing to give to God the glory of bringing water from the rock, he would have entered the promised land, and would have been translated to Heaven without seeing death. Michael, or Christ, with the angels that buried Moses, came down from Heaven, after he had remained in the grave a short time, and resurrected him, and took him to Heaven.

Then there is Daniel 12:1 where Michael stands up and then the 7 last plagues fall on the earth. When our High Priest has finished His work in the sanctuary, He will stand up, put on the garments of vengeance, and then the seven last plagues will be poured out.

And then there is the name Michael, which in Hebrew means, who is like God?

It all conflicts with what you learn in the temple so I canâ??t go there or I should say I canâ??t discuss that due to the board rules. Hey, even this lurker can play buy the rules

[BCSpace]

Consider Jude verse 9 where Michael comes down and resurrects Moses.

Hmmmm.....

Yet aMichael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. Jude 1:9

Michael resurrects?

It all conflicts with what you learn in the temple

There is no scripture that conflicts with what is learned in the temple. Nor is there any teaching therein implying that Michael is the Holy Ghost (as Charity suggests).

[grego]

Do you know any 2 year olds ready to be the Holy Spirit of Promise, and the Spirit of Truth and the Comforter? Yet a 2 year old has more experience understanding the flesh than a spirit never born.

It might seem that way, but not really:

Alma 7:11

And he shall go forth, suffering pains and afflictions and temptations of every kind; and this that the word might be fulfilled which saith he will take upon him the pains and the sicknesses of his people.

Alma 7:12

And he will take upon him death, that he may loose the bands of death which bind his people; and he will take upon him their infirmities, that his bowels may be filled with mercy, according to the flesh, that he may know according to the flesh how to succor his people according to their infirmities.

Alma 7:13

Now the Spirit knoweth all things; nevertheless the Son of God suffereth according to the flesh that he might take upon him the sins of his people, that he might blot out their transgressions according to the power of his deliverance; and now behold, this is the testimony which is in me.

-=-=-=

Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. Jude 1:9

This was at Moses' translation, not resurrection. (He was to later appear to Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration, with a body, before the resurrection of Jesus, who was the first to resurrect.)

-=-=-=

The idea that the Holy Ghost is a spirit that has never had a body "makes reason stare."

I'm not sure why. (It makes me stare, though.)

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I dont believe Michael is part of the Trinity. Further more I have never heard of this concept. I think this is just another false statment to try stir people up.

Ding, ding, ding, you are corect.

[erichard]

...

The idea that the Holy Ghost is a spirit that has never had a body "makes reason stare."

I'm not sure why. (It makes me stare, though.)

Our experience on earth tells us that a two year old is not ready to be a medical Doctor and operate on people. And yet, that same 2 year old does have the capacity to become such a Doctor. But he must progress to that point. Would not spiritual things be the same? D&C 93 teaches that Christ himself had to progress grace for grace to become the Savior.

The idea that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are the same as Eloheim, Jehovah and Michael is a natural conclusion, and not an effort to stir things up out of nothing. President Young said:

It is true that the earth was organized by three distinct characters, namely, Eloheim, Yahovah, and Michael, these three forming a quorum, as in all heavenly bodies, and in organizing element, perfectly represented in the Deity, as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost!

JD 1:51

Richard

[TrashcanMan79]

President Young said:

Yeah, but wasn't that just, like, his opinion?

(That's what Mormons tell me anytime I quote the Journal of Discourses to them...)

[Lightbearer]

I suppose if you want to ignore the Standard Works and the teachings of the living Prophet then I guess you could justify believing any doctrine you want. If Adam was temporarily the Holy Ghost, then is he still the Holy Ghost or was he resurrected at the coming of Christ? If he was resurrected then how is it the D&C states that the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit? I see no justification from the Temple for such a doctrine. We were all in that Grand Council along with Adam and participated in the creation, so the fact that Adam was a participant in the creation does not justify saying he is the Holy Ghost. Why call him Michael, the Archangel if he was indeed a member of the Godhead? Why not manifest this teaching plainly in the scriptures? Speculation is all there is to support such a doctrine.

[consiglieri]

QUOTE(Sargon @ Oct 8 2007, 05:06 PM)

Michael being part of the Godhead is not official LDS doctrine. However, it is my personal conclusion that he is probably the Holy Ghost. I would be willing of course to change my mind if the prophet said something to the contrary, but as it stands Michael seems to me to be the best candidate for H.G., and therefore part of the Godhead. Nonetheless, it is not LDS doctrine.

Sargon

How is this possible? In light of the following:

QUOTE

(Moses 5:9) "And in that day the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam, which beareth record of the Father and the Son, saying: I am the Only Begotten of the Father from the beginning, henceforth and forever, that as thou hast fallen thou mayest be redeemed, and all mankind, even as many as will."

If the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam then how can Adam be the Holy Ghost?

A good question might be why the Holy Ghost is falling upon Adam and bearing record that the Holy Ghost is "the Only Begotten of the Father from the beginning."

Without resort to extrascriptural theories such as "divine investitute of authority," the textual evidence indicates that it was an unembodied Jesus who descended upon Adam as the Holy Ghost.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

One other interesting tid-bit to throw into the mix is that scripture seems clear that the Holy Ghost is the Revelator, and the one through whom all revelation comes to mankind.

Strangely, Joseph Smith said that it was through Michael that all revelation comes.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Garden Girl]

Dagnabbit!! This thread has been rolling around in my mind since yesterday... I still hold with my view that Adam/Michael is not the Holy Ghost... but, it is interesting to reflect on some comments about the position of Holy Ghost being a "calling," perhaps to be filled by different spirits in the various dispensations... I will continue my view that there is and has been one Holy Ghost of the Godhead, but not shut the door on the other theoretical possibility...

The Garden Girl

[MorningStar]

QUOTE(Sargon @ Oct 8 2007, 05:06 PM)

One other interesting tid-bit to throw into the mix is that scripture seems clear that the Holy Ghost is the Revelator, and the one through whom all revelation comes to mankind.

Strangely, Joseph Smith said that it was through Michael that all revelation comes.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Do you have a reference for that?

[MormonMason]

Try this theory out. I believe Michael is part of the trinity because Michael is simply another name for Jesus.

Won't work. Jesus will come to Michael at Adam-ondi-Ahman. Jehovah = Jesus and Michael and Jehovah worked closely together. Therefore, Jesus is not Michael. Jehovah's Witnesses say he is, too, though. It has been and is an official part of their doctrine for now.

[Sheelah]

Dagnabbit!! This thread has been rolling around in my mind since yesterday... I still hold with my view that Adam/Michael is not the Holy Ghost... but, it is interesting to reflect on some comments about the position of Holy Ghost being a "calling," perhaps to be filled by different spirits in the various dispensations... I will continue my view that there is and has been one Holy Ghost of the Godhead, but not shut the door on the other theoretical possibility...

The Garden Girl

I agree with GG too. This has been quite an eye opener thread for me. Will be interesting to find out *someday* what is actually right, but for now I too believe there has been only one Holy Ghost.